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Pandallo
Rivendell
May 2 2015, 6:40pm
Post #26 of 44
(1361 views)
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Are you posting in the right topic?
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Yes, yes we've heard it a 1000 times now, "The Hobbit is terrible it's just as bad as the Star Wars prequels", we know, we know. However the money grossed speaks a lot more than the vocal minority in its reception. Which I imagine would be called "the core" for you.
However this topic wasn't really about all of that, it was about the Extended Edition speculation based on the video.
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 2 2015, 6:58pm
Post #27 of 44
(1352 views)
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"such an overwhelming percentage" Who says? What percentage and where are your figures coming from?
"such a wide group" How wide? Who measured and how did they do it?
Seems to me that the certainty you're claiming is simply an extension of your own feelings. I think all anyone can say for certain is that the film was a box office success; within the circles of people who post about it on the internet some liked it (to varying degrees) and some didn't like it (to varying degrees), and in both broad divisions of opinion there are umpteen individual likes and dislikes - those who love it will love it for different reasons and those who hate it the same.
I loved it. I know not everyone did, but as to majorities and percentages I haven't a clue - and I don't believe you have either.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 2 2015, 8:03pm
Post #28 of 44
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You cut the funeral, you essentially lose nothing - it's clearly not integral to the narrative, as the film works without it. You cut Leggy on a bat, then either Bolg doesn't die, or Legolas teleports up there... I'd expect an editor to know that...
It is not just the funeral; the theatrical cut should have also included a scene with Dain, in his capacity as King under the Mountain. and the other leaders. As it stands, the film ends without giving the audience the final disposition of the Arkenstone (an important plot point!), what becomes of the treasure of Erebor, or even who takes control of the Mountain. The audience does not find out how things stand between the kingdoms of Rhovanion at the time of Bilbo's departure. These are things that should not have to wait for the extended edition.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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lionoferebor
Rohan
May 2 2015, 8:18pm
Post #29 of 44
(1309 views)
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OK, I suppose, if I find someone grieving I won't interfere, but I wouldn't just leave, either, so why were there not other dwarves standing off, sadly waiting?
I would think - hope - that it would have been Tauriel who stood off to the side sadly waiting while Kili's family mourned him...not the other way around. And that may be the reason we don't see any Dwarves, they already had their time with him.
For me, I think only Thorin was really honored, and mainly because of Bilbo's love and grief.
I agree whole-heartedly, Thorin was the only one of the three who was truly honored. Yet, Kili was remembered - though be it not in a way I prefer - still he was remembered. Unlike Fili who was completely forgotten. I don't know too many loving characters who are forgotten the way he was after his death. I can name plenty of villains...but not too many good, decent characters like Fili.
All this said, I wasn't happy to see any of them die, but by the end of the TE I at least had a sense of closure in regards to Thorin and Kili. I didn't and still don't have that with Fili, which for me is why the funeral scene is so important. I would prefer he be given a scene like the other two, but I know that is probably not going to happen. So, the closest I'll probably get is the funeral scene. If Fili had been mourned at the end of TE as Thorin and Kil were, quite frankly I wouldn't care one way of the other if the funeral scene was in the EE.
It's exasperating seeing all the PR and posters featuring ALL the Durins for BOFA, and my last memory of Fili re these films is what we saw? For shame. 
I couldn't have said better.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
May 2 2015, 9:23pm
Post #30 of 44
(1291 views)
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Still hoping for Dwalin's potentionally explained disappearance at Ravenhill to involve Fili.
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 3:30pm
Post #31 of 44
(1235 views)
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Argh - re Fili when I think about it, it's maddening....
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Because, it almost feels like the funeral scene imagery, because of Fili's lack of more presence in BOFA, that the imagery is of Thorin and Kili being greatly honored, and Fili is there, yes, but it could have been any of the dwarves that fell.
As opposed to pounding home to possibly unknowing audience members that Thorin's HEIR - the future king - is also gone . Re a response from a TORn member from an earlier thread where I asked why folks thought the funeral was important:
I do think a funeral would give more weight to the magnitude of the loss of the line of Durin. It's a really huge deal.
http://newboards.theonering.net/...ring=funeral;#827771
(For me this post had some great answers so thanks to all for their thoughts which helped me frame things!)
Although, if they include the war chariot scene - which I am personally more interested in than the funeral scene - at least that is SOME Fili .
And LOL hopefully somehow, perhaps, in connection with that scene, there will be some illumination over the frozen vs. non-frozen water around Erebor . I guess I am picturing the chariot being sent out to blow something up (since Balin is there, and knows how to make flash flame and so on...like blowing up a mountain spring that floods over the ice.)
But maybe I am way off here, as while Erebor may have had war chariots in the armory, where would the rams come from?
And *sigh* I would rather have had all the Durins live - for me again, if Tauriel had died, for one thing, the trauma to the elves for me would have been more understandable - e.g. a reason why Legolas leaves, for one thing. For me that's still kind of muddled as to the reason.
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 4:00pm
Post #32 of 44
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But re the TE audience, perhaps many didn't care about the unresolved issues...
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It is not just the funeral; the theatrical cut should have also included a scene with Dain, in his capacity as King under the Mountain. and the other leaders. As it stands, the film ends without giving the audience the final disposition of the Arkenstone (an important plot point!), what becomes of the treasure of Erebor, or even who takes control of the Mountain.
I can't speak for "everyone" but I do know that when I saw BOFA with others - even people VERY familiar or fans of LOTR - not one commented on Dain, the Arkenstone, etc. And no-one seemed to care about the "bridging" to LOTR either.
But that LOL is a miniscule sample of people commenting, or not. But I don't even remember the worst critical reviews remarking on tying up the loose ends.
Just sayin' - I personally had commented in an earlier thread why this film didn't show a funeral with DWARVES, but had this solemn moment of horns blowing when I assume many of the Laketowners really didn't understand the significance of the line of Durin and so on. (Well, folks pointed out the horns also blew for the fallen of Laketown.)
But again, I assume PJ & co. re the TE did some evaluating of a "mixed" audience, and possibly decided to focus on scenes that could easily be related to - possibly for children e.g. Tauriel and Kili - vs. being focused in the TE on tying up loose ends re the literature.
Still, as many have commented the decisions re the TE were baffling, for me including not having much of Beorn, a character I think any audience could appreciate.
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 4:17pm
Post #33 of 44
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I see where you're coming from with disliking the dialogue in the "why does it hurt so much" scene, but I actually thought the "they want to bury him" line was both appropriate and well-delivered, and the saving grace of that moment.
I think the dwarves would bury their dead. Underground in the mountain. What else would they do with the bodies other than "just bury them"? What, just leave them above ground? It's a pretty standard way to deal with the dead. He's their prince- of course they want to bury him! And with honor.
Yes, the dwarves evidently bury their dead except in certain cases...but it's more of being "laid to rest" if you will, with mourners coming to pay homage and all. So I imagine if dwarves came for Kili, they would have said (if anything) "we need to take him..."
You are correct that I personally am frustrated with that scene, because IMO at minimum there should have been other dwarves around, standing off to the side or in the corridor - a kind of honor guard, almost. Never mind Thranduil's IMO unexplained and rather late appearance....it almost feels a bit cheap (e.g., we didn't want to pay for extra dwarf actors?????
to NOT have that IMO...tho it's probably that all the focus was to be on the elves and not clutter the scene - I guess. I just don't think dwarves would have completely left Kili).
Agree tho that it's the best line of the dialogue, and I wish things had been edited with Tauriel kissing Kili and Thranduil standing by, or maybe putting a hand on Tauriel's shoulder or even putting a hand on Kili and saying something beautiful in Elvish. And that would have been it.
But, who can say, impossible to know how PJ will edit everything, in the end.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 3 2015, 4:34pm
Post #34 of 44
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I can't speak for "everyone" but I do know that when I saw BOFA with others - even people VERY familiar or fans of LOTR - not one commented on Dain, the Arkenstone, etc. And no-one seemed to care about the "bridging" to LOTR either.
Well, I wasn't posting about 'bridging' between TH and LotR. I think that the presence of Bilbo's ring is sufficient for that, although even now it won't surprise me if Gollum gets a cameo in the extended edition of TH:BotFA.
Readers of Tolkien's The Hobbit have the advantage of foreknowledge and can read between the lines to piece together what happens off-screen. I can only imagine, though, that at least some of those experiencing the story for the first time were perplexed over the way things are left when Bilbo and Gandalf depart from Erebor. Discussion about such topics tends to wait until after the audience has left the theater and people talk about the movie amongst themselves. There may well have been some folks asking "Is that it?" during the closing credits.
I really think that some of the nonsense with Alfrid could have been cut or severely edited to provide a few more minutes for the denouement, especially since we get no pay-off on Alfrid's arc in the theatrical cut. Thranduil's mention of the Ranger Strider could have also waited for the extended cut.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 5:24pm
Post #35 of 44
(1185 views)
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And true, many conversations (as least for me) happen re a film well after leaving the theater - in my case often over dinner after.
Most of the conversations I was part of didn't mention the items I posted - but then again, my friends are a tiny "blip" and I am sure, 'round the world, there were many "but what about?" conversations and discussions. I was - and I think a fair number on TORn are - wrestling with what we see as baffling choices on PJ's part re editing.
Re my post re the EE speculation - I am already wrestling with those questions, because if the speculation is correct, say, and there is a big segment on "resolving" Alfrid - for me - Alfrid and Kili both (for me) have been cases where I love the acting and character, but an overdose IMO in screen time managed to tire me, and where I resented the IMO neglect of the other characters. For me I think it's the first time re a film that's happened.
I really think that some of the nonsense with Alfrid could have been cut or severely edited to provide a few more minutes for the denouement, especially since we get no pay-off on Alfrid's arc in the theatrical cut. Thranduil's mention of the Ranger Strider could have also waited for the extended cut.
Agreed. Especially for me in that the mention of Strider seemed forced (not the acting, but the narrative) similar to the mentions of Legolas' mother. I suppose tho that mentioning Strider was assumed re editing something that would "delight the audience" I guess.
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Jettorex
Lorien
May 6 2015, 4:26pm
Post #36 of 44
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would someone be kind enough to briefly list the added scenes, extended running time and when the EE will come out?
- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
May 6 2015, 5:32pm
Post #37 of 44
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This isn't an official video. It's just a compilation of scenes that MIGHT be in the extended edition based on shots from trailers, interviews, and information from movie tie-in books. At this point only a few of these have been confirmed to actually be in the extended cut. A lot of it could end up like the scene with Thranduil and the dwarves in DoS...still on the cutting room floor. I'm guessing we won't get anything official about the release date or running time until late July or early August.
here's a list of what's covered in the video:
-Smaug destroying the wind lance
-more Bard on the rooftops (confirmed)
-more information about the Three Elf Rings (confirmed)
-Beorn tortured in Dol Guldur
-more Beorn in general (confirmed)
-pursuit through Dol Guldur with Radagast fighting
-Radagast giving Gandalf his staff
-Thorin's "everything I did, I did for them" speech
-the dwarves beginning to count and assess their treasure
-Bilbo talking to Bofur before he leaves with the Arkenstone
-dwarf charge on battle rams
-dwarf ballistas
-the chariot chase (confirmed)
-the rest of the dwarvish company fighting in the battle
-Bifur loses the axe in his forehead
-Thranduil killing orcs and telling Gloin to "keep up" during the battle (probably not filmed)
-Bilbo buries the acorn in Dale during the battle
-Bilbo saying "when faced with death, what can anyone do?"
-Bard helping an injured man of Lake-town
-the women of Lake-town fighting
-Alfrid's death (pretty much confirmed)
-elves firing arrows at trolls
-Gandalf's "how shall this day end?" speech
-Thorin, Fili, and Kili's funeral (confirmed)
-Dain's coronation (confirmed)
-Bard becoming king or at least hints of it (confirmed)
-Dain speaking with Bilbo (confirmed)
-more brutal slaying of orcs (confirmed)
-Beorn bringing Thorin's body to Erebor (probably not filmed)
-Bombur finally speaks (confirmed)
Hopefully most of these end up in the movie.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on May 6 2015, 5:34pm)
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Ilmatar
Rohan
May 7 2015, 12:08am
Post #38 of 44
(981 views)
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bafflement over target audience
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I have to comment on this, but in a general level, i.e. not particularly for you but just throwing thoughts around...  Although this may be slightly OT but still.
a general audience... e.g. with children in it, I think weren't going to care about a funeral scene and for some it may have been upsetting.
Possibly. I still find it incomprehensible that a child audience had to be considered so notably with a film that is called "The Battle of Five Armies." It's a BATTLE, people - not between two, but five armies all bent on destroying their opponents. The movie is dark in tone, not a kids' fairytale, it's closer to a war movie. Even if the book it is based on is a children's classic, I sometimes wish that the films would have taken quite another starting point to begin with (and been straightforward about it, of course, that this trilogy and particularly the final film was necessarily not meant for children). Not in order to get more blood and violence in, but to make it more natural to present the events without needing to consider overly tender sensibilities towards kids having nightmares or trauma...
There is also the possibility of a common (?) belief that any movie with dragons, dwarves and wizards in it just HAS to be aimed at children because adults can't enjoy fantasy...?!? When I saw the film in theaters four times, I don't think there was ever anyone younger than 13-14 in the audience, but it may have been marketed differently in different countries. Maybe somewhere BO5A was presented as "a family film", here (to my limited knowledge) it was not.
So, in the end, we have a film where a huge dragon burns down a whole town (where people also die in flames although it's not shown), one honorable character succumbs to madness and threatens to kill his friends, armies clash, orcs and goblins and trolls and wargs run amok, bodies pile up (although almost bloodless of course), severed heads roll, whole family lines are ended, central characters are stabbed through chest, some surviving characters are close to choking in their tears over the fallen, and in the end there is gloomy, depressing and painful feeling of emptiness and loss on the battle field as well as in the audience.
...And still, after all that, it it the funeral which might be seen as too upsetting for children... Not that I'm eagerly looking forward to it. I just can't understand how the producers could think that seeing characters pay their respects and say some solemn goodbyes would be worse for children to see than seeing some other characters slain.
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on May 7 2015, 12:11am)
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lionoferebor
Rohan
May 7 2015, 1:41am
Post #39 of 44
(969 views)
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Dwalin? Will mystery behind his disappearing act at a Ravenhill ever be revealed?
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 7 2015, 2:00am
Post #40 of 44
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Ah, but there's also the first part of the title
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"The Hobbit" which is also the name of a famous book for children. So I guess it's somewhat expected that children might want to see the film.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
May 7 2015, 2:40am
Post #41 of 44
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Graham McTavish pretty much confirmed that there would be more Dwalin at Ravenhill. That just wasn't mentioned in this video. Neither was the scene with Bilbo and Fili that Dean O'Gorman mentioned at some point.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
May 7 2015, 5:18am
Post #42 of 44
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Overall I agree with pretty much everything you had to say.
I sometimes wish that the films would have taken quite another starting point to begin with (and been straightforward about it, of course, that this trilogy and particularly the final film was necessarily not meant for children). Not in order to get more blood and violence in, but to make it more natural to present the events without needing to consider overly tender sensibilities towards kids having nightmares or trauma...
AUJ is rather whimsical and light compared to DOS and especially BOFA, and it does seem misleading...but the book basically follows the same tone. It's starts out as the classic children's story about conquering a dragon with the idea everyone will live happily ever after, but as the story progresses it does grow darker and by the end things don't turn out quite as expected.
This said, it is the directors duty to tell a story the best way he sees fit. Sometimes that is being up front from the start, sometimes it is not. However, he should not feel bound to tell a story in particular way as not to mislead the audience. This is one reason the MPAA rates films. 
The Hobbit films are all PG-13, e.g. "Some material may not be suitable for children under the age of 13. Parental [not director] discretion is advised." It is up to the parents to determine if a film is suitable for their child to watch, and good place to start is with the rating...not the tone of previous or similar films. Plus with the advancements in communication and technology parents can easily research online if a film is suitable for their child...or if they're like me actually preview the film before deciding if their child should see it.
Of course there are always those who choose not to heed the rating, figuring "this film will be similar to the last," but that is not the fault of the MPAA or the director.
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Ilmatar
Rohan
May 9 2015, 5:19pm
Post #43 of 44
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I did say "the book it is based on is a children's classic" and of course children would want to see it; I just had a random thought that it might have been better for the adult audience if the films were made from a different perspective (while still maintaining the whimsical elements as well) - or in an ideal (fantasy ) world there could be two versions of each film, one for the whole family and one for adults. But the EEs are realizations of that thought in some way.
And then again, isn't it ultimately the adults'/parents' responsibility to decide what children get to seem, regardless of what the kids may want to see... I'm not looking for an argument  , it was just a passing thought about the limitations set by the supposed target audience.
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on May 9 2015, 5:25pm)
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Ilmatar
Rohan
May 9 2015, 5:51pm
Post #44 of 44
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I agree, the movies follow the book's change in atmosphere. While reading the book, the ending didn't feel quite as tragic, because the fallen dwarves were not as fully personalized and were a little more indistinguishable from the rest of Company as a whole. When we have seen two films' worth of them and they have a face, voice and actual character in our mind (plus the emotional effect of actually seeing them slain), it results in the end of BO5A feeling more shocking with the lives lost than reading about the same events in a book form. Of course it would appear strange if the AUJ's rating was very different from BO5A's, even if the former was more suitable for children than the latter. "Yes kids, you can watch the first two films but the last one is for adults - sorry, you just have to imagine how it ends." Ummm, maybe NOT a very practical solution.
It seems that at least AUJ EE, DOS EE and BO5A TE are all rated as suitable for 12 years and up here, with added tags for violence and anxiety/fear/horror - I don't know if even BO5A EE would have the same - but I don't recall seeing quite as young kids in the audience. Then again, when I have read on the forum about there being children to see the film, I thought about something like seven or eight years old, actually young children. In my mind a 13 years old is almost a teenager.
Ending my off-topic ramblings here...
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