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**The Fellowship of the Ring Discussion, "A Journey in the Dark," part 2
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sador
Half-elven


May 5 2015, 2:46pm

Post #26 of 56 (3524 views)
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'So you know about our little footpad, do you?' [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Did you expect him to show up this way on 1st read? Who did you think was following them before you knew it was Gollum--an Orc?
Well, as a Bakshi-firster, I knew Gollum woiuld catch up somewhere. (Although I probably didn't realise it was him in Moria - which I didn't remember until checking in this old thread).
So I most probably guessed.

2. Why doesn't Frodo report the pursuing sounds to others--isn't that irresponsible?
He assumes they noticed (well, we later will disover that Aragorn did).
And he might be less than trustful already.

But the most likely explanation is that he wasn't sure of himself.

3. Can't Gollum hide the sound of his feet, or has he lost this hobbit ability?
That's a neat question!
But it could be that Frodo's senses have been sharpened by the Ring.

Does he know Frodo hears him?
Of course.
Just like Benson knew Kraus heard him (where did that memory pop up from?).

Why isn't he more aggressive in attacking (if he senses the Ring)?
Frodo is never alone. And Gollum doesn't really want to start a battle of nine to one, when he is unarmed - at least, not until he can be sure he gets the Ring before anybody else is aware of him.

4. Don't his luminous eyes give him away along with his feet?
He is not just a footpad - he is an eyepad, too!

Isn't he supposed to be a stealthy hunter?
I wonder if he can dim the light. If not - that's a risk he must take.



noWizardme
Half-elven


May 5 2015, 5:20pm

Post #27 of 56 (3515 views)
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Er, thanks ("This Mind Has Multiple Issues. Please help improve it...") :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I first came across George Borrow's Wild Wales when needing an unexpected extra book for a nice but rain-lashed holiday in Wales. Some lines stick in the mind.

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


oliphaunt
Lorien


May 5 2015, 8:26pm

Post #28 of 56 (3513 views)
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Moreover in Moria... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
1. Why do the Orcs only guard the east gate and not the west gate?
The door is invisible to orcs, they'd think it was invisible to everyone.

3. When you first read about "the cats of Queen Beruthiel," were you expecting an explanation later?
No, but I was happy when I got one.

4. Why can Gandalf see best in the dark (compared to Frodo) and not Gimli?
He's got angelic powers. I think Gimli had very good night vision, just not as good as Frodo and Gandalf.

5. How often do you think people can be characterized by their footfalls?
I make a game of this. So I think its pretty easy.
Never noticed that Gandalf was missing from the list. Well, he was missing from the Fellowship soon after.

Gollum:
1. Did you expect him to show up this way on 1st read? Who did you think was following them before you knew it was Gollum--an Orc?
I thought is was an orc in soft shoes, like in the Hobbit.
2. Why doesn't Frodo report the pursuing sounds to others--isn't that irresponsible?
He thought it was his paranoid imagination. Only sometimes you really are being followed.
3. Can't Gollum hide the sound of his feet, or has he lost this hobbit ability?
Gollum is quiet, but Frodo has enhanced hearing.
Does he know Frodo hears him?
No, he doesn't know how good Frodo's hearing and vision have become.
Why isn't he more aggressive in attacking (if he senses the Ring)?
Attack Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Boromir and Gimli? No way.
4. Don't his luminous eyes give him away along with his feet? Isn't he supposed to be a stealthy hunter?
Pretty soon, Frodo does see his eye shine. He's stealthy, but has been caught more than once.


Pippin and the well:
1. Why is he curiously drawn to the well? Is some evil power at work, or is it just Pippin?
He's young, and Tookish.

2. Couldn't loose stones fall into wells on their own? Did this really give them away to the enemy, or were those hammer tappings signals to the Orcs that they needed to check out all sounds? Were the Orcs previously alerted that the Fellowship was on its way through the mines, or is it Pippin's fault that they were discovered and attacked?
No one came out and blamed Pippin, and I don't either. Orcses might well have heard the ruckus at the back door and been on the alert.

3. Why don't the Orcs attack sooner after Pippin gives away their location?
They needed time to get all the meanies together.

1. Gold & jewels = Dwarf toys; iron = servant. Why this strange language from Gandalf? Is this how Dwarves talk about these things?
I speak of luxury cars, private planes, jewlery and mansions as the toys of the wealthy.

2. What makes mithril so special? Is it an acquired taste, or a luxury that only the luxury-minded understand? To Frodo, his coat was just silver. He didn't look at it and say, "That's the most beautiful, wonderful silver I've ever seen in my life! I would call it True Silver, I would. It's clearly worth more than everything in the Shire." How did mithril become so popular in the fantasy community that it's included in World of Warcraft?
Hobbits don't have the same value system as Dwarves. They do know about gold and 'jools', but armour isn't important to them. In the world of warcraft, I bet armour is valued above good cheer.

3. Were the Dwarves "punished" for delving too greedily and deep for mithril?
Oh yes, greed is a sin and leads to a bad end.

Balin:
1. Why would Gimli conclude his kin never came there when they'd sent home reports that they had?
He's in denial.
Were you surprised on first read or first movie watch that the Dwarves were dead?
Nope, we'd had a heads up at Rivendell.
2. Why did Frodo fear/conclude Balin was dead? He speaks as if he had some personal stake in the Dwarf recolonization attempt, but Balin was a brief acquaintance from long ago.
Bilbo had told stories about Balin, and Balin had been to Bag End as a visitor. Plus Frodo had the heads up at Rivendell.
Does his observation seem as out of place as if Legolas or Boromir or another hobbit made it? Shouldn't these words have been spoken by Gimli or Gandalf?
Gandalf probably already had it figured out, but didn't say anything. And Gimli was in denial.


Thanks for all the great questions. I enjoyed thinking all this through!
love, oliphaunt


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 5 2015, 9:44pm

Post #29 of 56 (3506 views)
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Notes on Pippin and Gollum [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the replies, Oliphaunt.

Pippin: I'd say the Reading Room consensus is that he dropped the stone in the well because he's a curious Took. I don't mind being in a minority of one, but I have always felt in this chapter that there was sonething innately evil about Moria that spurred him to that act.

Gollum: while I agree with everyone else that Gollum was no dummy and could easily compute the odds against him, he's remarkably more aggressive in Lorien, and note how much more he hates/fears the Elves: their rope burns him, their leaves smell, and lembas is inedible to him. But none of that stops him friom climbing the Elven tree-home where Frodo was sleeping, which was a bold move. Hence I'm surprised he's not bolder in Moria, at the very least trying to sneak up on them and steal the Ring in their sleep and/or throttling their guard--which it seems he might have toyed with on the last night in the great hall when Frodo dozed off on his watch.

But like a predator stalking its prey, he may have had to size them up first, and it must have been confusing to him to have this multiracial group traveling together. Also, he was stuck in Moria by the west gate when they came in, so maybe his first priority was finding a way out by following them to an exit, and he could worry about getting the Ring later when he had his strength back.


sador
Half-elven


May 6 2015, 9:08am

Post #30 of 56 (3497 views)
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Pippin and, well... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why is he curiously drawn to the well? Is some evil power at work, or is it just Pippin?
It might have been several meals weighing down on him.

2.
Couldn't loose stones fall into wells on their own?
In the Real World, yes. In Middle-earth - who knows? Perhaps there is some malignant force behind it? The reader is left guessing, but never knows.

The interesting question is - do the Orcs know?

Did this really give them away to the enemy,
No. Falling stones are natural enough in the Mines.
The scent of burning pipeweed, on the other hand...

or were those hammer tappings signals to the Orcs that they needed to check out all sounds?
Somebody (the random orc name generator suggests Krohof as an appropriate name - so we'll call him that) woke up, felt curiously untired, and needed to relieve his restlessness.
But the Moria Orcs were not as advanced as we are, so they had no internet to spend time on.
So Krohof wants to vent by writing obscene graffity on the wall. The problem is, he can't write, and doesn't have any writing materials.
There is nothing for him but carving...

Were the Orcs previously alerted that the Fellowship was on its way through the mines, or is it Pippin's fault that they were discovered and attacked?
I'm sure they have all the relevant files open before them.

Otherwise, how would the orc-chieftain know to attack Frodo of all people?

3. Why don't the Orcs attack sooner after Pippin gives away their location?
It takes time to copy the files, and distribute them properly!

But well, perhaps what gave them away was the light Gandalf lit in that hall...

Or else they just wanted to trap them at the bridge. Why search for them in all places? Risky, and they might miss.

By the way - this well surely was for drinking water. But if you lower down a bucket, you might find there all kinds of things you don;t want to.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 6 2015, 11:55am

Post #31 of 56 (3488 views)
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Orcs as neighbors [In reply to] Can't Post

"Somebody (the random orc name generator suggests Krohof as an appropriate name - so we'll call him that) woke up, felt curiously untired, and needed to relieve his restlessness.
But the Moria Orcs were not as advanced as we are, so they had no internet to spend time on.
So Krohof wants to vent by writing obscene graffity on the wall. The problem is, he can't write, and doesn't have any writing materials."

>>>As if it's not bad enough that they pillage, plunder, and murder, when they live next door to you, their cure for insomnia is to tap on rocks on night. I'm sure they play their music too loud too!


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 6 2015, 9:08pm

Post #32 of 56 (3476 views)
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What did the Orcs of Moria know, and when did they know it? [In reply to] Can't Post

The question from Watergate, or Hollingate, in this case.

I feel like the book implies that Pippin's stone in the well gave them away to the Orcs, but that the Orcs also knew they were on their way, unless it's really easy to open fissures in the ground and fill them with fire to prevent someone's escape. That sounds like a few days' work to me.

I would say that the Watcher smashing the Hollin Gate closed could have tipped them off, except there didn't seem to be any Orcs in the vicinity to hear it (or not that we know of, of course).

So, how did the Orcs and Balrog know they were there?
1. Message from Sauron
2. The Watcher destroying the Hollin Gate
3. Pippin's stone in the well
4. Gandalf's flare in a big hall
5. Gimli's song in a big hall
6. That pesky moth in the movie turned double agent?


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 6 2015, 9:12pm

Post #33 of 56 (3477 views)
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Is it credible that Sauron somehow wound up with most of the mithril? [In reply to] Can't Post

I never quite believe Gandalf on that one. Dwarves mined and traded it, mostly to Elves, one assumes, and neither race became extinct. That mithril-coat of Bilbo's came from the Erebor hoard, and Galadriel wears a mithriil Ring. Doesn't it seem like the Elves and Dwarves would have kept most of the mithril not plundered at Moria and Eregion?


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 6 2015, 10:41pm

Post #34 of 56 (3475 views)
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A note on Moria and its defenses [In reply to] Can't Post

While we've discussed the wisdom of writing your secret password for your security system on your front door, it was certainly not a problem, since Moria endured even after Eregion fell and Sauron dominated the area.


Quote
After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad -dūm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dūm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.

--(From Appendix A)

If Moria only had one gate on each side of the mountain, and no interior greenhouses but lots of hungry Dwarves, one would think Sauron could have camped a big army at both gates to starve out the Dwarves, but that didn't happen.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 6 2015, 11:00pm

Post #35 of 56 (3469 views)
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I'm wondering who didn't know [In reply to] Can't Post

The Balrog showed up at the bridge, and Legolas immediately identified it as one, while Gimli immediately called it Durin's Bane. Legolas wasn't part of the battles of the First Age when Balrogs appeared, so how could he spot one so easily? And what stories do Dwarves tell their children that Gimli could instantly call out Durin's Bane? Or was the Balrog wearing a nametag? ("Hi, My Name is...")

Then there's this from Appendix A:

Quote
It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, and the year after Nįin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed or fled far away.

One thing that stands out is that the Balrog didn't go on a mass killing spree; instead he killed Durin and his son a year apart. What he did in between those killings, and what the Dwarves did to fight or avoid him for a year, remains a mystery. But he presumably didn't kill them while they were alone, so there were witnesses, hence Gimli knows what Durin's Bane looks like. How many other Dwarves did he kill? And how many had a good look at him before they fled?

Another Balrog witness was Dain, who told Thrain that he couldn't enter Khazad-dum because Durin's Bane was waiting just within the Gate. (That makes him understandably upset that Balin would have wanted to go there.)

So I think Durin's Bane is much better understood than Isildur's Bane.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

May 6 2015, 11:39pm

Post #36 of 56 (3464 views)
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Maybe the Dwarves paid Sauron of in Mithril? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron-gold!


squire
Half-elven


May 6 2015, 11:46pm

Post #37 of 56 (3472 views)
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Yes, Siege is the Dwarves' weakness - in a 'real' world [In reply to] Can't Post

Even Tolkien concedes that the Dwarves always trade for food, never growing it themselves. So Moria besieged by Sauron, for the better part of the Second Age (a couple of thousand years), without access to farm products, does seem like a stretch. He quite realistically concedes that "its people began to dwindle" in number - leaving to the reader's imagination the question of who was eating what, or whom.



squire online:
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Brethil
Half-elven


May 7 2015, 1:40am

Post #38 of 56 (3459 views)
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Flappy feet and such [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Some basic questions:
1. Why do the Orcs only guard the east gate and not the west gate? Yes, I know there's a giant squid guarding it, but look how things can get past it.
I bet it likes the taste of Orc as much as the next humanoid. The ultimate mean junkyard dog - so maybe self- preservation?


2. Gandalf says they can't drink the water in Moria: is that because of evil defilements from Orcs and the Balrog, or because of the industrial pollution caused by mining? I think the current occupation make sit dangerous; its like JRRT giving us the message that evil and corruption are a real, tangible thing. I wonder if he was affected by the trench water in France; I have heard it was horrible, a mix of mud, ashes, gunpowder, bodily fluids and who knows what else (do you need much else?)


3. When you first read about "the cats of Queen Beruthiel," were you expecting an explanation later? (I was!) I was too!


4. Why can Gandalf see best in the dark (compared to Frodo) and not Gimli?

I think Gandalf's vision is partly in the spirit plane...he just sees more clearly and maybe in the dark, with no distractions, even more so. A sign of inner change that to Frodo the dark is suddenly more comfortable. Unless you picture him in one of those lighted miner hats. Then it makes more sense, in a literal way.


Quote
One sign of change that [Frodo] soon had noticed was that he could see more in the dark than any of his companions, save perhaps Gandalf.




5. How often do you think people can be characterized by their footfalls?

Quote
There was no sound but the sound of their own feet: the dull stump of Gimli’s dwarf-boots; the heavy tread of Boromir; the light step of Legolas; the soft, scarce-heard patter of hobbit-feet; and in the rear the slow firm footfalls of Aragorn with his long stride.



I think everyone: the question is, who is attuned enough to decipher the sounds?


Gollum:
1. Did you expect him to show up this way on 1st read? Who did you think was following them before you knew it was Gollum--an Orc?
2. Why doesn't Frodo report the pursuing sounds to others--isn't that irresponsible?
3. Can't Gollum hide the sound of his feet, or has he lost this hobbit ability? Does he know Frodo hears him? Why isn't he more aggressive in attacking (if he senses the Ring)?
4. Don't his luminous eyes give him away along with his feet? Isn't he supposed to be a stealthy hunter?


Maybe Gollum's mutations (like uncontrolled flappy feet) make him a greater goblin-hunter; not necessarily a hunter of the Fellowship? He may do well with not-quite-brightest-porch-light goblins, who also would not be repelled or note his particular dark cloud; but this is a different set of people. I think that is what keeps him at bay as well, the inner lights of Legolas and likely Aragorn - whom he already hates and fears - are not something he wants to brave. Hmmm - great question if its irresponsible on Frodo's part. Maybe it is ...I took it as him almost being too unsure of himself to say anything. I was not sure what to expect; its been so long. But I love that passage about the pattering feet, that continue and are not an echo.





Thanks for leading this chapter in the dark, so to speak, CG!Wink









(This post was edited by Brethil on May 7 2015, 1:41am)


sador
Half-elven


May 7 2015, 5:42am

Post #39 of 56 (3443 views)
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Thank you. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've just finished my breakfast, if you really want to know.


sador
Half-elven


May 7 2015, 6:10am

Post #40 of 56 (3444 views)
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"...as to myself, my guiding star always is: 'get hold of portable property'" [In reply to] Can't Post

- John Wemmick, Great Expectations ch. 24

1. Gold & jewels = Dwarf toys; iron = servant. Why this strange language from Gandalf? Is this how Dwarves talk about these things?
Well, considering that the Dwarves were children of Aule, they would see themselves as entitled from birth to the treasures of the Earth.


As for Gandalf - he might have learned it from the dwarves themselves, of from a certain Maia of Aule's train, who once used toi be his friend and partner.

2. What makes mithril so special? Is it an acquired taste, or a luxury that only the luxury-minded understand?
No, I would assume it is really useful - for being both malleable and very hard (however that happens).
And obviously, being rare enhances its price.

How did mithril become so popular in the fantasy community that it's included in World of Warcraft?
I try not to answer questions regarding communitied I do not belong to.

Fergus' creed, you know.

3. Were the Dwarves "punished" for delving too greedily and deep for mithril?
It sure doesn;t seem as if they've hit the jackpot, does it?

At least I hope they had more portable property with them than poor ol' Thror seems to have had.



noWizardme
Half-elven


May 7 2015, 9:52am

Post #41 of 56 (3447 views)
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I'd read that passage as... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd read that passage as...

"Of what they brought to light the Orcs have gathered nearly all [that was left available in Moria], and given it to Sauron, who covets it"

That is, I think Sauron gets any mithril that Orcs get their claws on, rather than he's been somehow able to gather what is left in the hands of Free Peoples.

I wonder what Sauron does with it?

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


May 7 2015, 11:28am

Post #42 of 56 (3446 views)
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Sir Balin the impetuous [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why would Gimli conclude his kin never came there when they'd sent home reports that they had?
What kind of messages did they get? Were they reliable?

Were you surprised on first read or first movie watch that the Dwarves were dead?
As a Bakshi-firster...

But I should hardly be surprised. After all those long, empty, days, I would be very surprised to find them alive.

2. Why did Frodo fear/conclude Balin was dead?
It is the natural conclusion.

Does his observation seem as out of place as if Legolas or Boromir or another hobbit made it?
No, because Frodo is the POV character. He speaks for the reader.
And internally, he speaks for Bilbo.

Shouldn't these words have been spoken by Gimli or Gandalf?
Gandalf has acted throughout as if he had no hopes of findins Balin alive.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 7 2015, 1:34pm

Post #43 of 56 (3435 views)
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Aha, thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

I was taking that too literally, as in "of all they brought out of Moria and into the world at large." But you're right, if it's just the context that what was available in Moria, then it makes sense that the Orcs gathered all that up and sent it to Sauron.

He's probably a dragon at heart and, while having no use for mithril, he has a big heap of it that he sleeps on while muttering smugly to himself, "This is mine and on one else's."

It's pretty thankless being an Orc, isn't it? You get to seize control of the richest mineral mine in the whole world, and then you have to turn over all the loot to your boss. Didn't they ever try to unionize? "Welcome to Moria, an Employee-Owned Mining Cooperative." They wouldn't be so mean if they weren't so exploited. As Maciliel said, "Pity the Orcs."


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 8 2015, 11:29am

Post #44 of 56 (3349 views)
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I wonder whether there were any secret entrances, as in Erebor? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 8 2015, 11:51am

Post #45 of 56 (3351 views)
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That would seem likely. [In reply to] Can't Post

Another detail Tolkien didn't give, but it's entirely reasonable to conclude they had them, like the postern gate at Helm's Deep or Idril's secret exit from Gondolin. It was routine in big fortifications to have little entrances you could sneak in and out of, or you were obviously trapped by the few big ones you had.

And to the question of: why didn't Balin's troupe use them to escape? They were probably long forgotten by his time, and hard to tind, as at Erebor. But I'd bet Moria had them.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 8 2015, 11:56am

Post #46 of 56 (3348 views)
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Secret entrances and passageways [In reply to] Can't Post

seem a very much UUT, but a fitting thing. Take a race that is both secretive and very technically savvy and it almost seems a given. I don't know if we have any direct evidence of such, but maybe a suggestion in that Second Age 'dwindling' versus outright immediate (say, within 10 years) starvation. The foods supplied by trade fell off, and one might assume there were stores of long lasting foods but maybe also a faint hint that some may have been able to leave and re-renter Moria unseen with more supplies.









Brethil
Half-elven


May 8 2015, 11:59am

Post #47 of 56 (3345 views)
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You beat me to a point of agreement! [In reply to] Can't Post

Good question on Balin's being trapped - forgotten or just not near that particular area? If they somehow became known by the Orcs and were guarded or blocked off in late years that could explain it, I suppose.









CuriousG
Half-elven


May 8 2015, 12:29pm

Post #48 of 56 (3346 views)
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Another ripoff: Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
How did mithril become so popular in the fantasy community that it's included in World of Warcraft?

First edition Dungeons & Dragons. Don't see how Saul Zaentz let that slip through the cracks. Now it's just like Xerox or Aspirin.

I forgot about World of Warcraft having Orcs as a race too. Aren't these things trademarkable? I seem to recall George Lucas bringing legal action over the use of the term "Star Wars" by the Ronald Reagan administration's anti-missile defense system, and "Star Wars" was not an invented phrase or word like mithril and Orcs--or hobbits.

So, is it possible for someone to write some fan fiction set in Middle-earth and using Middle-earth names, or would they be sued by the Tolkien estate? Can you trademark names like Frodo, Luke Skywalker, and Batman? Or are names public domain? Copyright laws protect original ideas and how they're expressed and copied, but it also depends on how litigious a person is. Is it possible to write a story about four hubbits with a magic belt that they must take the to the land or Murder to destroy the evil lord Soraun, or would that have lawyers all over it?


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 8 2015, 12:35pm

Post #49 of 56 (3339 views)
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Frodo's responsibility to report the pattering feet [In reply to] Can't Post


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Hmmm - great question if its irresponsible on Frodo's part. Maybe it is ...I took it as him almost being too unsure of himself to say anything. I was not sure what to expect; its been so long. But I love that passage about the pattering feet, that continue and are not an echo.

It seems to me also that he's not really sure of what he hears, and he doesn't want the others to think he's nuts, so he doesn't bring it up. But I think readers would feel differently about his silence if one night the pattering feet multiplied to fifty or a hundred and launched an attack that killed them all, and then we'd think indignantly, "Why didn't he speak up sooner? He could have saved everyone."

But it's better for the story that Frodo does nothing: it's creepy to know that you're being followed by an unseen, unknown menace, and Moria is a really creepy part of the book for me.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 8 2015, 2:18pm

Post #50 of 56 (3334 views)
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Mithril and Orcs and Trademarks, oh My! [In reply to] Can't Post

D&D had goblins and orcs (as separate races) long before there was a World of Warcraft. TSR was able to get away with it by altering some names enough to avoid trademark infringement (mithril to mithral or warg to worg, for example) and because Tolkien did not actually coin words such as halfling, goblin, troll and orc (the last of which can be traced to Old English).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 8 2015, 2:20pm)

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