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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 10:16pm
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**The Fellowship of the Ring Discussion, "A Journey in the Dark," part 2
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Welcome to the rest of Moria, where things are sunny and hopeful and--no, sorry, we're in for a rough ride.
Some basic questions:
1. Why do the Orcs only guard the east gate and not the west gate? Yes, I know there's a giant squid guarding it, but look how things can get past it.
2. Gandalf says they can't drink the water in Moria: is that because of evil defilements from Orcs and the Balrog, or because of the industrial pollution caused by mining? (Clearly the Dwarves drank the water in their day.)
3. When you first read about "the cats of Queen Beruthiel," were you expecting an explanation later? (I was!)
4. Why can Gandalf see best in the dark (compared to Frodo) and not Gimli?
One sign of change that [Frodo] soon had noticed was that he could see more in the dark than any of his companions, save perhaps Gandalf. 5. How often do you think people can be characterized by their footfalls?
There was no sound but the sound of their own feet: the dull stump of Gimli’s dwarf-boots; the heavy tread of Boromir; the light step of Legolas; the soft, scarce-heard patter of hobbit-feet; and in the rear the slow firm footfalls of Aragorn with his long stride.
Gollum:
1. Did you expect him to show up this way on 1st read? Who did you think was following them before you knew it was Gollum--an Orc?
2. Why doesn't Frodo report the pursuing sounds to others--isn't that irresponsible?
3. Can't Gollum hide the sound of his feet, or has he lost this hobbit ability? Does he know Frodo hears him? Why isn't he more aggressive in attacking (if he senses the Ring)?
4. Don't his luminous eyes give him away along with his feet? Isn't he supposed to be a stealthy hunter?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 10:36pm
Post #2 of 56
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Pippin and the well:
1. Why is he curiously drawn to the well? Is some evil power at work, or is it just Pippin? (Later he'll be drawn to the palantir of Orthanc.)
2. Couldn't loose stones fall into wells on their own? Did this really give them away to the enemy, or were those hammer tappings signals to the Orcs that they needed to check out all sounds? Were the Orcs previously alerted that the Fellowship was on its way through the mines, or is it Pippin's fault that they were discovered and attacked?
3. Why don't the Orcs attack sooner after Pippin gives away their location?
Mithril:
‘For mithril ,’ answered Gandalf. ‘The wealth of Moria was not in gold and jewels, the toys of the Dwarves; nor in iron, their servant.' 1. Gold & jewels = Dwarf toys; iron = servant. Why this strange language from Gandalf? Is this how Dwarves talk about these things?
2. What makes mithril so special? Is it an acquired taste, or a luxury that only the luxury-minded understand? To Frodo, his coat was just silver. He didn't look at it and say, "That's the most beautiful, wonderful silver I've ever seen in my life! I would call it True Silver, I would. It's clearly worth more than everything in the Shire." How did mithril become so popular in the fantasy community that it's included in World of Warcraft?
3. Were the Dwarves "punished" for delving too greedily and deep for mithril? Gandalf seems to imply it:
"The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin’s Bane."
Balin:
1. Why would Gimli conclude his kin never came there when they'd sent home reports that they had? Were you surprised on first read or first movie watch that the Dwarves were dead?
2. Why did Frodo fear/conclude Balin was dead? He speaks as if he had some personal stake in the Dwarf recolonization attempt, but Balin was a brief acquaintance from long ago. Does his observation seem as out of place as if Legolas or Boromir or another hobbit made it? Shouldn't these words have been spoken by Gimli or Gandalf?
Thanks to everyone for their participation!
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AndHeHandedHimTheTobaccoJar
Bree
May 3 2015, 11:41pm
Post #3 of 56
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Re: Question #3. In the Unfinished Tales, Queen Berúthiel and her cats are expanded upon. Pretty much, she was Queen of Gondor (Taron Falastur was her husband) in the early Third Age. She was a Black Numenorean, and had 10 cats (I think 1 white one and 9 black ones or something). She would use the black cats to spy on the men of Gondor, and the white cat to spy on the other cats. The cats became infamous, and people wouldn't touch them and would curse at them. Eventually she got sent back to her homeland with her cats.
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AndHeHandedHimTheTobaccoJar
Bree
May 3 2015, 11:53pm
Post #4 of 56
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1. When I 1st read the book, I didn't have a clue. I hadn't seen the movies, and had only heard of Gollum from The Hobbit and previous LOTR chapters. I thought that it was perhaps goblins, mostly because in The Hobbit it talks about how they put on leather shoes and followed along Thorin's company quietly, with little to no noise.
2. Maybe Frodo thinks he is just imagining things because he is afraid? That's what I always thought.
3. I thought that the only reason Gollum was heard was because Frodo had enhanced senses from the Ring, not because Gollum was louder than the average hobbit. Also, I never thought that hobbits could be totally, 100% silent, I thought they were just much more stealthy than humans, dwarves, elves, etc.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 1:12am
Post #5 of 56
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Thanks for the backstory on the mystery Queen
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And if I recall correctly, the strife between her and the king led to him being childless, and childless kings were considered part of the decline of the Numenoreans in Gondor.
I personally love the extra detail Tolkien came up with. It's one thing to have a queen have her cats spy on her subjects, but to have one of her cats spy on the other spies? Just nasty!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 1:21am
Post #6 of 56
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I'm never sure about the 100% silence part myself. A line in "Three's Company," after Gildor joined them, says:
They now marched on again in silence, and passed like shadows and faint lights: for Elves (even more than hobbits) could walk when they wished without sound or footfall. So hobbits can't be 100% quiet, or Elves couldn't be quieter than them. (So are Elves 100% quiet?)
As for Gollum, Aragorn says in "The Great River":
‘Gollum,’ answered Frodo. ‘Or at least, so I guess.’
‘Ah!’ said Aragorn. ‘So you know about our little footpad, do you? He padded after us all through Moria and right down to Nimrodel. Since we took to boats, he has been lying on a log and paddling with hands and feet. I have tried to catch him once or twice at night; but he is slier than a fox, and as slippery as a fish. I hoped the river-voyage would beat him, but he is too clever a waterman. So Aragorn heard him too, and also didn't sound the alarm. I wonder if Gandalf heard him?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 8:09am
Post #7 of 56
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I think it's typical of Tolkien to come up with an unexplained literary effect, but then decide to explain it later!
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I Think we readers gloss what the Queens cars are pretty easily: some proverb or figure of speech maybe based upon a folk tale. Probably it would not have mattered had Tolkien said no more. But he seems to-on the one hand- greatly liked to set himself the puzzles and then work them out; whilst - on the other hand - being quite capable of getting irritated by the endless fan requests for more detail.
I do like that he makes up his own Middle-earth proverb. Writers who try to update an English one (e.g. "what in space?!" For "what on Earth?!") Have a jarring effect on me as a reader!
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 9:02am
Post #8 of 56
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Yes, I think you might readily distinguish the footfalls of different people (and other "Foley" noises they characteristically make).
I also think that it works very well for creepiness that we only get Frodo's uncertainty about what (if anything) is following them: it also sets up a puzzle that we might not solve for a while.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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sador
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 12:22pm
Post #9 of 56
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1. Why do the Orcs only guard the east gate and not the west gate?
The giant squid is not only effective; it's dangerous.
And as someone (was it you?) pointed out, most people can't really find the door.
For a third reason - there are woodmen to plunder on the east side. while the west-gate offers nothing.
2. Gandalf says they can't drink the water in Moria: is that because of evil defilements from Orcs and the Balrog, or because of the industrial pollution caused by mining?
After finding out what the water spawns...
But I expect the water has been polluted sinde the dwarves fled; and having spent some time in the mines, he probably found outby experiment the water is foul. Balin and his folk likely drew water from the Silverlode.
Frankly, this doesn't seem a very likely answer; it is more probable that the author wanted to enhance the tension and sense of evil, without considering the corollaries of this statement.
3. When you first read about "the cats of Queen Beruthiel," were you expecting an explanation later? (I was!)
I thought there might be, but I'm not sure I really expected it.
4. Why can Gandalf see best in the dark (compared to Frodo) and not Gimli?
Why do you think dwarves should see well i the dark? I thought Gandalf was a natural choice.
5. How often do you think people can be characterized by their footfalls?
I wonder if this comes from Tolkien's old love of stories about Indians, err, Native Americans.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 12:37pm
Post #10 of 56
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That passage reminds me of:
. At Birmingham station I became a modern Englishman, enthusiastically proud of modern England's science and energy; that station alone is enough to make one proud of being a modern Englishman. Oh, what an idea does that station, with its thousand trains dashing off in all directions, or arriving from all quarters, give of modern English science and energy. My modern English pride accompanied me all the way to Tipton; for all along the route there were wonderful evidences of English skill and enterprise; in chimneys high as cathedral spires, vomiting forth smoke, furnaces emitting flame and lava, and in the sound of gigantic hammers, wielded by steam, the Englishman's slave. George Borrow (Victorian English travel writer ) in his book Wild Wales E.g. http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/travellers/Borrow
Borrow's enthusiasm for all this industry sounds more dwarves than Tolkienesque.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 1:05pm
Post #11 of 56
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"Who gave away our position?!" Pippin's adventures in Moria.
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Let's see: the Fellowship's arrival is announced by the noise of the doors being slammed and barricaded.
Pippin drops a stone.
Gandalf lights something that is like a flare.
Gimli sings (or recites) so that the roof echoes.
B
Obviously it's Pippin then: the rest of them have been really stealthy. 
But the niggles of practicality (are they wiser than the Horses of Instruction, or less wise than the Tygers of Wrath?) are not the point, I think: Pippin's stone, and the uncertainty of what it might have stirred up, is a wonderfully creepy invention.
I read Pippin as just the fidgety kind of person who would drop that stone: or push a buy marked "Do Not Push" in order to see why you shouldn't push it. I also like his idea that he'd love to cover that well, but daren't now go near it.
Also, note that it's Pippin we have as poin of view character a little earlier when it's necessary to leap a 7-foot chasm. Is that because he's the smallest? It's quite a leap: I think hobbits would be smaller than a modern western eight year old, for whom the long jump record is about 14 foot
http://www.usatf.org/...e=youth&sport=TF. Those modern American children are of course leaping into sand, in the light, and aren't carrying luggage. So it's quite a leap!
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 4 2015, 1:55pm
Post #12 of 56
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It be Dark in here, & stuff. Thx for the journey Curious..
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1. Why do the Orcs only guard the east gate and not the west gate? Yes, I know there's a giant squid guarding it, but look how things can get past it.
Is the east gate “Dwarf Invisible” from the inside as well as the outside? Maybe they don’t know there’s anything to guard?
2. Gandalf says they can't drink the water in Moria: is that because of evil defilements from Orcs and the Balrog, or because of the industrial pollution caused by mining? (Clearly the Dwarves drank the water in their day.)
Yes, the byproduct of mining mithril was a heavy metal, of which the Moria Dwarves had built up an immunity. This byproduct was called ”Khazad-mud”
4. Why can Gandalf see best in the dark (compared to Frodo) and not Gimli?
Someone has to come in first . . .
5. How often do you think people can be characterized by their footfalls?
There was no sound but the sound of their own feet: the dull stump of Gimli’s dwarf-boots; the heavy tread of Boromir; the light step of Legolas; the soft, scarce-heard patter of hobbit-feet; and in the rear the slow firm footfalls of Aragorn with his long stride.
Is this a “Find Gandalf” quiz?
1. Why is he curiously drawn to the well? Is some evil power at work, or is it just Pippin? (Later he'll be drawn to thepalantir of Orthanc.)
Some are curious, some are complacent. A bit nosy gathers information albeit bad news this time. “Let’s climb that mountain.” “Why?” “Because it’s there!” PeeKee, peeky
3. Why don't the Orcs attack sooner after Pippin gives away their location?
On the Level?
3. Were the Dwarves "punished" for delving too greedily and deep for mithril? Gandalf seems to imply it:
Quote
"The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin’s Bane."
Q&A ??
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 1:55pm
Post #13 of 56
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Mithril - it's like Tie-Tayyyy-Neee-ummm
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If mithril existed in the real world, it would be a strategic material of great importance, for its military and engineering significance:
Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of Mithril did not tarnish or grow dim."
So I've got lightweight, maintenance-free, super-hard armour (and presumably edged weapons). We must have those for our legions. There is only one place it is found, you say? Seize it at once!
Oh, and you can also make it into an ally which is invisible under some circumstances (the ithildin used on the Doors of Moria).
I'm imagining that mithril's a bit like Titanium (hence the David Guetta joke in the post title). That's used for fighter jets & missiles: if it were not found fairly widely, I can readily imagine a Cold War scuffle over the territories that had mines.
The difference is: Titanium is difficult to extract from ores, mithril is difficult to extract from orcs.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 1:57pm
Post #14 of 56
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"Khazad-mud" . Brilliant! :) //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 2:24pm
Post #16 of 56
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I didn't notice Gandalf was missing from that footstep comparison
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and I've certainly read LOTR more than once. Great catch! I imagine him having a heavy footfall, but he seems to make no noise at all, or it's not worth mentioning.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 4 2015, 4:08pm
Post #18 of 56
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Trick question: What is the Orkish word for "friend"?
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1. Why do the Orcs only guard the east gate and not the west gate? Yes, I know there's a giant squid guarding it, but look how things can get past it.
It’s a dead end. And I doubt any Orc is aware of the Elven word for “friend”.
2. Gandalf says they can't drink the water in Moria: is that because of evil defilements from Orcs and the Balrog, or because of the industrial pollution caused by mining? (Clearly the Dwarves drank the water in their day.)
One would think putrescent Orc urine would produce an unhealthy glow, not to mention a horrendous stench.
Low technology techniques for mining gold and silver produce mercury contamination of nearby waters. And the tailings themselves can cause mercury pollution if not disposed of properly. While the Dwarves would know which waters were contaminated (hopefully), the Fellowship would not, so best not take chances.
3. When you first read about "the cats of Queen Beruthiel," were you expecting an explanation later? (I was!)
I figured she’d turn up somewhere later, probably in some sort of Julie Newmar type outfit. Boy was I disappointed.
4. Why can Gandalf see best in the dark (compared to Frodo) and not Gimli?
I guess it was one of his many powers:
They came therefore in the shape of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand.
-LOTR, Appendix B
I note Legolas has great night vision:
Darkness gathered rapidly as they approached that high place, and they must string out into a long and straggling line. Galdor and a band of men spear-armed went ahead, and Legolas was with them, whose eyes were like cats' for the dark, yet could they see further.
-BoLT 2, The Fall of Gondolin,
And Orcs got great night vision:
”There's only one thing those maggots can do: they can see like gimlets in the dark.”
-The Uruk-hai
As do the Rohirrim:
“But these Whiteskins have better night-eyes than most Men, from all I’ve heard;…”
-ibid
Not to mention their horses:
"… and don’t forget their horses! They can see the night-breeze, or so it’s said.”
-ibid
So ironically, of all the different people and creatures in Middle-earth the cavern-dwelling Dwarves would seem to have the worst night vision of all.
I note this explains their problem of a shrinking population: similar physiology combined with poor perception in low light conditions. Ouch!
As those of us who have been more slowly are
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
One sign of change that [Frodo] soon had noticed was that he could see more in the dark than any of his companions, save perhaps Gandalf.
________________________________________
5. How often do you think people can be characterized by their footfalls?
My sister could tell mine. I know I could tell my mother’s, often by how rapid they were in response to what she thought I was doing. (Usually very rapid if I had been quiet (too quiet) for a length of time.)
Skilled equestrians can often identify a specific horse by the sound of its gait.
Currently consumer scientists have achieved a large degree of accuracy (up to 93%) identifying specific individuals (including their gender and type of shoe worn) by means of footfalls using floor sensors. They hope to eventually track exactly where customers go in stores. Then they’ll construct a little map (like the ones of Billy’s wanderings in Family Circus) for each of us of where you slow down, speed up, and stop so they’ll know exactly what attracts you and what fails to hold your interest. Eventually you will be utterly unable to voluntarily leave the mall.
Gollum:
1. Did you expect him to show up this way on 1st read?
I’d given up on him. Not quite sure how he ended up at the West Gate. (Yeah, I know all the theories and such.) Still seems totally unlike him to get lost in a cave. Much less make any noise after half a millennium of practice sneaking around in the dark.
Who did you think was following them before you knew it was Gollum--an Orc?
Couldn’t be Glorfindel, as Mr. Perfect would have been totally silent. (And you’d think his eerie body glow would give him away. Is that some sort of phosphorescent fungus? He’s probably long overdue for a shower.)
Indeed, most Elves would have a glowing weapon so they’d instantly be seen in the dark. (Kinda explains the real reason Gondolin was discovered: One night all the Elves drew their swords in some sort of ceremony and the intense light reflecting off the clouds gave them away.)
Couldn’t have been one of the Dwarves of the colony of Moria as apparently they’re all blind in the dark so they’d need a light which could be seen a mile away.
I’d go with one of Saruman’s Orcs, except he’s such an ineffectual weinie.
Maybe ninja zombies. (But are they "Zinjas" or are they "Nombis"?)
Frankly, what with Gandalf’s “There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.” I was hoping for a Shoggoth.
2. Why doesn't Frodo report the pursuing sounds to others--isn't that irresponsible?
Harry Potter Syndrome. Or the Ring. Or maybe he figures surely the other more capable people in the group have already noticed it, so why look foolish by pointing out what everybody else knows?
3. Can't Gollum hide the sound of his feet, or has he lost this hobbit ability?
Apparently he lost it sometime during the past 60 years otherwise he’d have been a Misty Mountain Goblin snack long ago.
Does he know Frodo hears him?
Surely if he did he’d be quieter.
Why isn't he more aggressive in attacking (if he senses the Ring)?
He knows Gandalf and Aragorn and they were not kind to him. Plus he probably knows Legolas, and the Mirkwood Prince might not be too kind to an escaped prisoner, especially one who was shown kindness and repaid it with betrayal and death. And he’s already gone up against one hobbit and came off badly and here there’s four. I won’t even mention a heavily armed Man and a Dwarf.
He may be crazy, but he’s not stupid.
4. Don't his luminous eyes give him away along with his feet?
One would think. In a nice reversal following their glow enabled another hobbit to escape a different cavern:
In a moment Gollum was on him. But before Bilbo could do anything, recover his breath, pick himself up, or wave his sword, Gollum passed by, taking no notice of him, cursing and whispering as he ran. What could it mean? Gollum could see in the dark. Bilbo could see the light of his eyes palely shining even from behind.
-Riddles in the Dark
Isn't he supposed to be a stealthy hunter?
More like ambusher:
He just throttled them from behind, if they ever came down alone anywhere near the edge of the water, while he was prowling about.
-ibid
******************************************
Living Will Addendum:
To Whom It May Concern:
If I'm ever on life support, please unplug me.
Then plug me back in.
(Hey, works for computers!)
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 4 2015, 4:16pm)
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squire
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 6:56pm
Post #20 of 56
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You're so bane, you probably think this curse is about you.
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If I understand the scene that's coming up on the Bridge, Gandalf is truly surprised (and depressed) to find that Durin's Bane is a Balrog.
But what does he already know about the creature he confronted in the Chamber of Mazarbul? That it's an immensely powerful magician ("The counter-spell was terrible"), and that the orcs and trolls are terrified by it. Gee, we readers conclude... there must be at least two or three other diabolic powers of the first order in Middle-earth, alongside dragons and balrogs and Nazgul and barrow-wights and huorns and Dark Lords, for Gandalf not to have made the balrog connection until he actually saw it (or had it identified for him by Legolas - it's not clear how important his cry "A Balrog is come!" is to Gandalf's realization). Since Galadriel and the other High Elves are the wizard's buddies going way back, we can also conclude that none of the Wise knew the identity of Durin's Bane either.
In short, just as Faramir cannot guess what Isildur's Bane was, we have to take the story's word for it that these legends do not explain themselves to the people of Middle-earth. There are just too many other plausible candidates for Banedom, so that Banes remain properly mysterious until dramatically identified at just the right points in the story!
Faithful servant yet master’s bane
Lightfoot’s foal, swift Snowmane.
It kind of makes you wonder if "swift Snowmane" will enter legend as Theoden's Bane, or whether what caused the death of Rohan's king will, over time, become unclear and mysterious too.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 6:57pm
Post #21 of 56
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Maybe Durin's Bane is like Bane in Batman,,, only smaller. //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 4 2015, 7:01pm
Post #22 of 56
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"It must have been / The sighing of the breeze."
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Another stage-property that he pulled out of his box pretty frequently was his broken twig. He prized his broken twig above all the rest of his effects, and worked it the hardest. It is a restful chapter in any book of his when somebody doesn't step on a dry twig and alarm all the reds and whites for two hundred yards around. Every time a Cooper person is in peril, and absolute silence is worth four dollars a minute, he is sure to step on a dry twig. There may be a hundred handier things to step on, but that wouldn't satisfy Cooper. Cooper requires him to turn out and find a dry twig; and if he can't do it, go and borrow one. In fact, the Leather Stocking Series ought to have been called the Broken Twig Series.
-Mark Twain, Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offences
Pippin and the well:
1. Why is he curiously drawn to the well?
He’s young, and he’s a Took. But mostly because he’s a Took.
Is some evil power at work, or is it just Pippin? (Later he'll be drawn to the palantir of Orthanc.)
It’s like how Bilbo’s Tookish side got him in trouble, but in Pippin’s case every side is Tookish. A veritable polytookishron of curiousity and impulsiveness.
2. Couldn't loose stones fall into wells on their own?
Or boulders. Or snow. Or snow and boulders. An absolute avalanche if you will. (That seems familiar somehow…)
Did this really give them away to the enemy, or were those hammer tappings signals to the Orcs that they needed to check out all sounds?
I’m betting there was a Mrs. Orc somewhere waking up her husband and telling him to get out of bed and check out that strange noise downstairs. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.
Were the Orcs previously alerted that the Fellowship was on its way through the mines, or is it Pippin's fault that they were discovered and attacked?
Either Boromir couldn’t resist tooting his horn again because why not, or else Aragorn bellowed out another long recitation of his lineage just in case someone missed it.
3. Why don't the Orcs attack sooner after Pippin gives away their location?
It took some time to gather a quorum for the Moria Dropped Pebble Investigatory Committee.
Mithril:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
‘For mithril ,’ answered Gandalf. ‘The wealth of Moria was not in gold and jewels, the toys of the Dwarves; nor in iron, their servant.'
________________________________________
1. Gold & jewels = Dwarf toys; iron = servant. Why this strange language from Gandalf?
For Gandalf, yes. For Tharkûn, no.
Is this how Dwarves talk about these things?
At least how they dream about these things, as Olórin would know.
2. What makes mithril so special?
noWizardme about sums it up.
Is it an acquired taste,….
A military necessity.
For example, the Roman military preferred weapons made of “Noric steel”, made from an iron ore high in carbon content from Erzberg Austria. A legend has it that a local caught a Water Goblin in the Black Lake, who promised a gold mine that would last for a year if he was released. The local refused. Then the Water Goblin promised a silver mine that would last for ten years. That offer was also refused. Finally the Water Goblin offered a mine of the finest iron ore that would last forever. Now that offer was accepted.
…or a luxury that only the luxury-minded understand?
If they were looking for luxury the Erzbergians would have gone with gold or silver.
How did mithril become so popular in the fantasy community that it's included in World of Warcraft?
First edition Dungeons & Dragons. Don't see how Saul Zaentz let that slip through the cracks. Now it's just like Xerox or Aspirin.
3. Were the Dwarves "punished" for delving too greedily and deep for mithril?
The opposite direction of the Tower of Babel but the same consequences. Shows anything can be overdone to deadly disaster, including manufacturing candy, breeding unicorns, and creating rainbows.
Gandalf seems to imply it:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
"The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin’s Bane."
________________________________________
Oh, sure, it’s all clear in hindsight, but did Gandalf happen to mention any such concerns at the time like “Hey, Durin! You’re digging too greedily and too deep! There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world, like, say, BALROGS!!!!”, but nooooo!!
Balin:
1. Why would Gimli conclude his kin never came there when they'd sent home reports that they had?
Dwarves are so secretive sometimes they don’t even tell each other.
Were you surprised on first read or first movie watch that the Dwarves were dead?
Disappointed.
I was also hoping for more puzzles and traps.
2. Why did Frodo fear/conclude Balin was dead? He speaks as if he had some personal stake in the Dwarf recolonization attempt, but Balin was a brief acquaintance from long ago.
Balin was Bilbo’s friend. I’m sure Bilbo spoke often and fondly of him, and made especial note of him in his tales. And of course such a much talked about august personage would make a lasting impression on a young hobbit’s memory if they ever did meet.
Does his observation seem as out of place as if Legolas or Boromir or another hobbit made it?
Not if Thranduil, Denethor, Saradoc, Paladin, or the Gaffer were great friends with Balin and spoke long and affectionately of him.
Shouldn't these words have been spoken by Gimli or Gandalf?
Gimli’s not saying anything negative because he’s afraid that could make it true.
Gandalf is not saying anything because he’s the leader and doesn’t want to crush morale. ("Guess something down here killed everyone!")
******************************************
Living Will Addendum:
To Whom It May Concern:
If I'm ever on life support, please unplug me.
Then plug me back in.
(Hey, works for computers!)
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 4 2015, 7:03pm)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 4 2015, 10:46pm
Post #23 of 56
(3829 views)
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Hobbits are 100% quiet and Elves are 110% quiet? And yes you can get 110% quiet. I've just decided that! 
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 5 2015, 1:15pm
Post #24 of 56
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OK, noWixardu, but u have a mind like Wikipedia
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That's a great quote! And it makes me wonder if people did say things like that more colloquially in the past, so it sounded conversational enough to Tolkien to have Gandalf say that.
I find nothing wrong with what Gandalf said, it's just unusual within the the scope of the book. Plus he doesn't say it in a negative way, and usually domination in Tolkien-speech is frowned upon. I think it sheds light on how Dwarves think: that iron is their servant. The world of stone, ore, metals, and gems is something that they were born to master, so why not anthropomorphize them? Gold is a pet or plaything to enjoy; iron is a dull but necessary servant. What was mithril to them--a lover more sexy than a she-Dwarf? (which wouldn't take much)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 5 2015, 1:15pm
Post #25 of 56
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Well, okay, now that we have it authoratatively. :) //
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