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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 2 2015, 2:11pm
Post #1 of 34
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About Those WEREWORMS..?
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They reveal themselves @ a Most Crucial Moment.. ...Dain is just about to attack the Elves & Laketown Survivors.. But It Takes a Colossal Entrance of Something So Fantastical {In a Fantasy Film} that all differences need to be Put aside. EDitors note: Frank Herbert's Sand worms in Dune? FH did say he may have got his idea from Tolkien. {...Giant worms in the deserts of the East.."} So, bom is good with it! 2. SNEAK ATTACK..the ORCS up to that point have been underground, therefore No Scouts could have warned the Good Guys. 3. WE often jus kinda Expect PJ to have something Un-Expected, & here one Major example. 4. Size? the Armies pouring out of Gundabad is so Collousel, it is close to size of the "Battle of the Last Alliance" which blew us away about 15 years ago. But Now, with Massive software, IT's a "Walk in the Park" to have MASSIVE troop movements. ...Have we become Jaded to it?... One can probably look back @ Cinema History in the 21st Century see the development of "Massive", as a real Turning point in FILM Production. Once again, Bomb BOWS to PJ's Greatness!
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 2 2015, 2:15pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 2 2015, 7:29pm
Post #2 of 34
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Where the heck does one apply to get the job of Were-worm Wrangler? Did Sauron really send out to the Last Desert in the Far East to get those massive beasts? From Tolkien's writings, we cannot tell if he meant the Were-worms to be imaginary creatures of fancy or if they were meant to be based on a living creature of Middle-earth. I would think, though, that he might have meant them to be more dragonish and less like overgrown earthworms.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 2 2015, 7:47pm
Post #3 of 34
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Any form of "wer" creature infers that the creature transforms into a man or at the very least has man-like qualities. Tolkien probably intended wereworms to conjure images of dragon-men or wild men that turn into dragons. The wereworms in the movie do not posses any man-like qualities that we can see, so I suppose it's possible that these creatures transform into men (similar to the way Beorn transforms). I propose that the reason these worms do nothing in the battle is because, when they burst out of the mountain, they are hit by daylight and this light transforms them back into men.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 2 2015, 7:49pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 4:33pm
Post #4 of 34
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Some people here right after the Movie came out Complained that it was TOO Different than Tolkien...Are you, OKAY with it NOW? Jus'curious..
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 3 2015, 4:44pm
Post #5 of 34
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Any form of "wer" creature infers that the creature transforms into a man or at the very least has man-like qualities. Tolkien probably intended wereworms to conjure images of dragon-men or wild men that turn into dragons. Tolkien, though, did not use were- in the way you describe. His Werewolves (Draugluin, Carcharoth, etc.) were not Men and did not transform into Men; rather, they were spirits given wolf-form that were more intelligent than the average Warg and able to use the Black Speech and the languages of Men and Elves. We don't even know if Tolkien intended for were-worms to represent real creatures in the context of Middle-earth. They might have been nothing more than a hobbit's fancy invented for a story or poem.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 6:25pm
Post #6 of 34
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O-s, you have very Valid Points..SSOoo what
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BOTHERS people about them..? SHOCKING @ first "That's Not Tolkien?" OKAY? JRRT left a LOT out of his description of the Battle. SSOoo..bomby will Fall Back on what Gandalf said... "every good STORY needs some, some, Sorta Embellishment..?"
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 3 2015, 7:44pm
Post #7 of 34
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SSOoo what BOTHERS people about them..? I think that it is the Were-worms are just too much--and they seem derivative of Dune (or maybe Beetlejuice for the less charitable). Also, there is the way that they are introduced and then immediately forgotten. They feel utterly random.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 3 2015, 7:45pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 12:32am
Post #8 of 34
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In DEFENSE.... of the Wereworms..?
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"The Watcher in the Water" @ the West gate of Moria only had one scene. There are Darker Forces in the DEEP places of this MiddleEARTH.. Isn't that why we love IT?
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 4 2015, 12:33am)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
May 4 2015, 2:40pm
Post #9 of 34
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I found the were-worms to be completely ridiculous and out of place. Why wouldn't the worms just burrow a few extra feet and devour the ground beneath the Elves/Dwarves/Men, or go a bit further and burrow into Erebor itself? They were a silly, illogical plot device. There is one throwaway line about "were-worms" in the Hobbit, but keep in mind that Tolkien used the word "worm" as an alternative for dragon. Even in the films, Thorin calls Smaug a "witless worm" as a form of insult. My reaction to the worms in theaters was about the same as Dain...oh come ON!!
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 4 2015, 4:25pm
Post #10 of 34
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And yet we are perfectly happy to justify the Eagles.
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I tend to think we bend over backwards to say that one deus ex beastie ought not to be questioned, whilst collecting things to object to with the other (etymology arguments being both a case in point and complete bunkum). If we are happy that Eagles move in mysterious ways and there really is an awfully good reason why they were happy to be put to work for months scouting for the party in Rivendell but couldn't have flown them over to, say, Lorien, then it seems a bit odd to me to take such issue with worms also not sacrificing themselves for the cause.
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 5:12pm
Post #11 of 34
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Bilbo does mention the 'were-worms in the last desert'. But Tolkien also talks about the goblin army using tunnels: 'Then they marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark. . .' Tolkien also used the word 'worm' to mean worm, pure and simple. Seems ironic that even when they took inspiration from the text it wasn't good enough...
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 6:24pm
Post #12 of 34
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Stone Trolls, & Stone Giants?.. .... Ents are "GiaENTS" that talk & Move.. ..... Great Eagles are Giants that according to the Book, Talk. ..... Giant Statues were Built {Argonath} & Surrounding the Outside & Inside of Erebor... ....... Giant Castles, like Bara-dur, Orthanc, Minas Morgul..Minas Tirith, .... Giant Oliphants? ....... Giant Flying Reptiles, Nazgul? ........ Giant Armies of Opposing Forces.. ...... But Giant Were-Worms are NOT ALLOWED?
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Goldeneye
Lorien
May 4 2015, 6:42pm
Post #13 of 34
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I'd say the inspiration from the text is extremely tenuous. The giant worms in BOFA were solely an invention of the filmmakers, with no direct existence in the Tolkien legendarium. David Day's exhaustive Tolkien Bestiary also has no mention of these massive creatures. They come and go within 10 seconds of screentime and are never mentioned again, which makes their appearance even more confusing. Like I mentioned in a previous post, why they didn't burrow a few feet further and swallow the ground underneath the Elves and Dwarves is beyond me- a total plothole. Or perhaps...a wormhole?? Lol.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 4 2015, 7:11pm
Post #14 of 34
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I think Spriggan is on your side, Bomby!
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Your response to Spriggan seems a bit negative considering that I think that he is supporting your Were-worms. Or am I misunderstanding your intent?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 4 2015, 7:17pm
Post #15 of 34
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I'd say the inspiration from the text is extremely tenuous. The giant worms in BOFA were solely an invention of the filmmakers, with no direct existence in the Tolkien legendarium. The Were-worms do get that one mention in The Hobbit, so we can't say that there is no textual evidence for them. I do believe that Tolkien's concept for them was probably very different and that he might have been horrified to find them at the Battle of the Five Armies. I do appreciate the reminder in a previous post that the goblins, in the book, arrived at the Mountain via secret paths including tunnels. Although, I would point out that those were the Orcs coming from the Misty Mountains by way of the Grey Mountains. They were not coming from Dol Guldur.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 8:55pm
Post #16 of 34
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I was writing when Spriggy wrote....
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I'm referring to G-Eye...who doesn't see the HUGE {GIGANTIC} HOLES in his Logic. Where does one draw the Line ? between Fantasy Characters & Reality-Based characters... Bom personally likes Fantasy Characters...or Bom wouldn't bother BEING here.
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 4 2015, 8:57pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 4 2015, 9:01pm
Post #17 of 34
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You were actually linked to Spriggan's post so I assumed you were replying to him. To answer your question, I guess it depends on whether the critter fits well into the fantasy world being depicted. In my mind, these Were-worms are too over-the-top for Tolkien's Middle-earth, but your mileage may vary.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 4 2015, 9:03pm
Post #18 of 34
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Oh I'm not on anyone's side... ;)
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But joking aside I do always run the "if Tolkien had written this" test. Now it's only a thought experiment but I can't help feeling that this is an example which fails to pass the test for me.
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 10:04pm
Post #19 of 34
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Meaning that Tolkien wouldn't have written them like that?
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If that is what you mean I think you're almost certainly right. Highly unlikely that Tolkien would have written or imagined it quite like that. And I take Otaku's point that Tolkien's tunnels were bringing the Gundabad army. On the other hand, it just amuses me that when Peter Jackson and co. come up with something unexpected that is definitely an interpretation of something that IS in the text - albeit a rather - er - creative interpretation it's still dismissed as 'wrong'. After all, if there were tunnels - and Tolkien says there were - something must have made them.....
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
May 4 2015, 10:20pm
Post #20 of 34
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The concept actually came from three sources...
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1. Bilbo mentioning "Wereworms in the Last Desert" 2. The orcs travelled to Erebor using tunnels in the book. 3. Gandalf describes his fight with the Balrog he says that he travelled through great tunnels beneath Moria. Tunnels not made by Durin's folk but by "nameless creatures" that burrow in the deep places - or something along those lines. So the worms aren't entirely invented, and their design is pretty cool. The problem doesn't come from whether they are canon or necessary. The problem is how they are implimented. How they show up at the battle and then do nothing. Exactly the same thing happens with Bolg's army from Gundabad (which is definately in the book). The army is built up as this big threat, and then when they finally arrive they don't do anything.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on May 4 2015, 10:23pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 4 2015, 10:23pm
Post #21 of 34
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If that is what you mean I think you're almost certainly right. Highly unlikely that Tolkien would have written or imagined it quite like that. And I take Otaku's point that Tolkien's tunnels were bringing the Gundabad army. On the other hand, it just amuses me that when Peter Jackson and co. come up with something unexpected that is definitely an interpretation of something that IS in the text - albeit a rather - er - creative interpretation it's still dismissed as 'wrong'. After all, if there were tunnels - and Tolkien says there were - something must have made them..... The tunnels through and under the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains. Many probably started as natural channels made by pockets of gas and running water moving through soluble rock (like limestone). The Dwarves would have enlarged some and delved others (at least in the Grey Mountains). The goblins would have done the same.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 4 2015, 10:28pm
Post #22 of 34
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The reverse really, or at least a tangent.
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I wasn't raising a question of liklihood, but of how "logic" seems to get a free pass if it happens to be written in the book. For example, had Tolkien happened to write "Then they marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, driving great beasts before them to mine and craft their secret approaches... Etc" then it is my belief we would be happily twisting ourselves up to justify that the existence of such breasts causes no logical issue with the text. Include them in the film, however, and both we and logic, it seems, twist the other way.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 11:06pm
Post #23 of 34
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@ the Top of this THREAD is...
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..."They reveal themselves @ a Most Crucial Moment.. ...Dain is just about to attack the Elves & Laketown Survivors.. But It Takes a Colossal Entrance of Something So Fantastical {In a Fantasy Film} that all differences need to be Put aside...." SSOooo.. it could be said, THEY were an IMPORTANT PLOT Device. If they had NOT shown up! DAIN would have attacked the Elves & Laketown survivors... SSOoo..what? if they TOOK off afterwards... Simple minded WORMS likely didn't have a Battle Plan..? NOW, if ORCS were riding them like in DUNE? Then Bomby would have been upset.
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 4 2015, 11:12pm
Post #24 of 34
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The "if Tolkien had written this test" doesn't work for me...
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I don't have an issue with gigantic worms existing in Middle-earth. I think that's perfectly plausible and fits nicely into this world of fantastical creatures. But I don't like that they are apparently controlled by, or serving, Sauron but are not used as weapons. And also that they make such a dramatic entrance and then disappear. I know that I would feel the same way about them even if they were in the books, because I feel a similar way (although not as strongly) about the eagles. Tolkien has them turn up at convenient times, at places that the eagles had previously refused to go. Now this can be explained by the eagles not necessarily taking sides, and owing Gandalf a favour (perhaps the wereworms owed Azog a favour?) and by the excuse of not wanting to be shot down by men. But it still feels like a minor issue in the books, and it becomes a major issue for me in the films because IMO it was Peter Jackson's job to justify the situation (which we know he is aware of). I'm sure fans would have been happy for a few changes to be made that would help explain the eagles, so they make some sense. But instead PJ ignores the issue and justifies it with "it was in the books" and then changes things that didn't need changing. Fans shouldn't just except a problem because it exists in the source material, nor should a problem like the Wereworms be justified by their potential existence in the books. How these things play out needs to work in the films, regardless of the source, and neither the Wereworms nor the eagles do. They both come across as overpowered and underutilised.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 4 2015, 11:14pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 4 2015, 11:43pm
Post #25 of 34
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Whilst I tend towards the other view, it is nice to have the parity.
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I find it much more reasonable to take your view that one doesn't like ex machina beasties full stop and this flaw is just as apparent in the textual Eagles as the cinematic worms. Myself, I don't mind either so much. Both are fun creatures and I don't take it too seriously. Two minor points. Firstly, the better and trickier Eagle comparison is from LOTR, as mentioned in my post above. Secondly we don't have any idea of the nature of the relationship between the orcs and the worms - it might be one of servitude but coukd just as easily not be.
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