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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 1 2015, 10:13am
Post #1 of 4
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"The Hero's Journey"
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Mythologist Joseph Campbell studies myths of many cultures, and argued that many had a common sequence of features. He called these "The Hero's Journey.
Here's a link to a nice article containing a short animation that explains this well, I think. http://www.brainpickings.org/...h-campbell-monomyth/
It's interesting to think about how, when 7 whether Tolkien uses these models.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 12:38am
Post #2 of 4
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Campbell is always fascinating.
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Not to be ungrateful, but I wish the video didn't assume I was ten years old. I couldn't finish watching it because the snide condescension of the narrator, and the 'anonymous shadow' style of the animation was getting to me.
But you asked then about Tolkien vs. Campbell. I don't know, but I expect that Tolkien's response would be: well, given that it follows a mythic structure, how good a story is it? My impression is that he didn't care about analyzing sources (and in his own lifetime he was inundated by requests to talk about the "sources" of LotR), but was concerned rather with the meanings and implications of the final work as written. He, in talking about the controversy of whether Beowulf was original or derivative, famously said the taste of the soup is more important than the origins of the bones in it.
He also disliked critics that looked for signs of the author's own life in a story, so he was clearly spitting against the wind of 20th century criticism generally!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 9:51am
Post #3 of 4
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'but is it a good story?' - enjoyment, analysis and tropes
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I certainly agree that it's important to ask whether the story (or sonnet, or 12-bar blues, or other formal form ) succeeds emotionally for the reader (or viewer, listener, eater, or whatever). It's certainly possible to create works that obey the rules of formal form completely, but seem sterile in every other way.
And, wasn't it Tolkien's point about the poem Beowulf, that scholars had been all over it looking for information about language and culture of it's time and should perhaps have given more attention to it as a story? A good point, I presume, since I think that was one of the works that made his academic career.
I can also understand someone saying that they want to enjoy the story only - they are either uninterested in analysis, or they actively don't want to take part in it in case it dulls their enjoyment. (I don't assume that is the position you are taking, squire, I'm just wanting to say that I think I understand why someone would take that position.)
An interesting thing (I think) about the "Hero's Journey idea is that storytellers don't have consciously to set out to make a story in that form. Cambpell claims (I think) that this trope arises partly for educational and psychological reasons - we all at times have to undertake a task we don't feel equal to. Maybe "Hero's Journey" stories provide advice, consolation, or role models. Conversely, maybe this type of story is engaging partly because we can reach into our own experiences and our own fears to identify with a hero who must do something difficult. There's also a sense in which the characteristic events of The Hero's Journey follow each other by the internal logic of the story. For example - why would the hero leave his or her status quo. Something ought to precipitate this. But, if the story concerns a hero dealing with something beyond his or her current capabilities, they will need some help or training. Next, some danger and reverses might be a good idea, because a tale in which the hero achieves the goal without any struggle might well lack drama and interest. And so on.
Also, the Hero's Journey has long ago become a trope (whether audiences know it by Campbell's name or not). Tropes are important building blocks for stories. I think I've cited the enjoyable and interesting website "TVTropes" before - it's helpful (and amusing) with this kind of thing,including to explain what a "trope" is:
[1]Tropes are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. On the whole, tropes are not clichés. The word clichéd means "stereotyped and trite." In other words, dull and uninteresting.[/1] [2]Tropes are just tools. Writers understand tropes and use them to control audience expectations either by using them straight or by subverting them, to convey things to the audience quickly without saying them. Human beings are natural pattern seekers and story tellers. We use stories to convey truths, examine ideas, speculate on the future and discuss consequences. To do this, we must have a basis for our discussion, a new language to show us what we are looking at today. So our storytellers use tropes to let us know what things about reality we should put aside and what parts of fiction we should take up.... There is nothing new under the sun. Including that very statement. And the book from which it comes. Completely ignoring the possibility that one's favorite show just might not be hewn from the very essence of the universe by Thor himself and placed in the periodic table under Or for "Originalium" doesn't change the fact that it wasn't. And acknowledging that it isn't should not lessen its appeal, either. Every story is influenced by what came before it — and storytellers (e.g., writers, directors, actors) are bound to show that influence, intentionally or not, in the process of telling. Just because something's been used before doesn't mean it's a cliché, and stories often gain something by having ties to other works. That said, there certainly is such thing as too derivative, but there's a difference between playing a trope straight and utter Cliché Storm (and even those aren't necessarily bad). It's impossible to write something completely and utterly without tropes, anyway, so stop trying.[2 ] Various snippets from the website "TVTropes, which discusses tropes in fiction (originally but no longer concentrating on TV shows, hence the website name) [1] http://tvtropes.org/ [/2] http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/TropesAreTools
I probably ought to say once more that I'm not advocating a reductive approach that sees Tolkien (or any other writer) as understood by seeing how the story is constructed from tropes. It would be a pity to forget to enjoy the story. But (to me at least) it can *also* be interesting to think in terms of tropes.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 4 2015, 8:41pm
Post #4 of 4
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Campbell and Tolkien weren't very far apart philosophically...
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Comparing Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces and Tolkien's essay On Fairy Stories, they simply have different emphases. However, as Campbell was a lapsed Catholic and Tolkien a staunch Catholic, had they met they may have been kindred spirits but would never admit it.
Interestingly enough, Campbell would consider Lord of the Rings a myth and not a fairy tale, and conversely, The Hobbit as a fairy tale:
"Typically, the hero of the fairy tale achieves a domestic, microcosmic triumph, and the hero of myth a world-historical, macrocosmic triumph. Whereas the former - the youngest or despised child who becomes the master of extraordinary powers - prevails over personal oppressors, the latter brings back from his adventure the means of regeneration of his society as a whole." -- Joseph Campbell, The Hero With a Thousand Faces, Chapter 3: The Hero and the God
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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