Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thranduil's Inner Face Wound/pain-how it affects him, Legolas, Tauriel/A Theory.

the 13th warrior
Rivendell

Apr 30 2015, 11:43pm

Post #1 of 16 (3415 views)
Shortcut
Thranduil's Inner Face Wound/pain-how it affects him, Legolas, Tauriel/A Theory. Can't Post

Hello OneRingers, I'd like to present a theory about the nature of Thranduil's inner pain, that came to light in a recent viewing of Hobbit 2 and 3 on dvd.

In Hobbit 2, Thran confronts Thorin during their hard bargaining over Lonely Mt. treasure. He almost presses his face into Thorin's and it is revealed that he has a terrible facial wound, skin missing, tendons and bones exposed. He hisses--very effective line delivery--that he knows what the pain of dragon fire is like. We only see this for a few seconds. Whether he chose to reveal his wound or whether he loses control over whatever powerful elf magic that keeps it in check temporarily is unclear. And it must have been a truly epic encounter a warrior elf king in such close proximity to "the great worm" and living to tell the tell. Was Thran a dragonslayer in his youth?? More mystery about him grows as the films go on.

However, it is clear, the elf lord has endured this wound and kept it hidden, controlled since it was inflicted on him. I believe it gives Thran a great deal of compassion for others deep down inside literally. He may come across as elusive, enigmatic, hard nosed, unsentimental at times, even a little dangerous and moody, but he is an elf lord with a heart underneath. At the end of the costly Battle of 5 Armies, he understands the reasons, but is torn at the departure of Legolas and wants to share a moment of their mutual loss of a wife and mother before his son goes off to parts unknown. This really weighs heavily on him and can be seen an isolation camera shot as Legolas departs. Father and son will go on and endure loss, separation as their missions require them to.

Similarly, Thran who mocked Tauriel's budding love for Kili as not real, shows his heart as she holds the dwarf's dead body--fine scene by Ms. E. Lilly-- whatever he might have thought of the situation, he can see her anguish up close and offers words of wisdom and comfort, that "it was real." Takes her aback and makes her think, more fine acting by Lilly.

Interestingly, there is perhaps some forgiveness going on here as Legolas and Tauriel have spent much screen time rebelling against Thran, even threatening him face to face. Never underestimate the keen insight and hidden heart of an elf lord however. He sees, comprehends their pain, offers thoughtful compassionate words, well timed, and understands they and he must all regroup and solider on. A costly battle has been won but darkness is still coming, and the Free People will have to control their sorrow, live with it, resolve it, bury it under elf magic, whatever their method, but above all, get on with the struggle against the Dark Lord. As he controls his dragon wound and submerges it, they must also overcome their grief and learn to live with it under the surface.

I thought Lee Pace conveyed this conflict well and still think he is one of Jackson's more complex, conflicted, mysterious elf beings. He is a welcome addition to elfdom the the LOTR/Hobbit masterworks.

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate, with props to the Mirkwood Elven King.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 1 2015, 3:46am

Post #2 of 16 (3306 views)
Shortcut
Thranduil is complicated [In reply to] Can't Post

In DoS, he has this motive to get the jewels that were denied him in AUJ. I imagine he's still pretty chapped about that, and the imprisonment in the movie actually makes more sense than the book (don't get me started on my problems with the book!). He wants what he wants and is willing to hold Thorin & Co hostage in order to get it!

But his isolationism, which seems so cold, is caused by his wife's death. I wrote a post about this a few weeks ago, that Legolas' mother's death caused Thranduil so much pain that he COULDN'T talk about it. It's almost like he was hiding in order to avoid anymore pain, but then Tauriel had to go tell him "there is no love in you." That really set him off, I think because he did still feel so much pain over his wife's death. I don't think her death is related to the dragon injury, unless Gundabad had dragons as well as the Witch King. Anyway, you can see how much he feels when he looks in horror at the dead elves - kind of like "what have I done?" And then he more or less loses his son emotionally by the way he threatened Tauriel, and he knows it. More grief - poor guy, no wonder he hides in the forest!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 1 2015, 9:54am

Post #3 of 16 (3235 views)
Shortcut
Actually, Thran is isolationist and there seem to be good reasons for it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Mr. K Cartwheels, if you think about it, Thran has a lot on his plate and is very much an island to himself like his kingdom. The elves have no help in their part of Mirkwood, since Lorien is so far away in the south.To the north, wasteland and Grey Mts. with orcs and dragons, to the east, the Dragon in the Lonely Mt. with Laketown a commerce center but not a military stronghold. Further east, the Iron Hills, but the elves are at odds with Dain and the dwarves. And immediately surrounding the elves, the spider lairs which are spreading all over the dark forest. These are pre war conditions--the constant state of alert may make him suppress things, not a lot of time for self reflection, when Orcs are at your river gates.

This might account for Thran's seal the borders, don't let anyone in or out attitude, a siege mentality that he never quite lets go of. Lorien seems as protected as anywhere with Galadriel and her ring of power. It seems well fortified for an elf kingdom, though Dol Goldur is nearby and the Misty Mts.with Orcs to the west. Elrond also has a ring and elf power to guard his land, which is hidden, though knowledge of how to enter it does exist. West of the Misty Mts. seemed a bit safer before the LOTR, Hobbit era, though there were certainly pockets of evil and evil beings roaming about. Thran's domain seems more vulnerable, exposed, surrounded by negatives.

And yes you point out that Thran, Legolas, and Tauriel all confront each other with elements of pain and emotional grief, also the issue of how far will the elves stick their necks out for others--Thran might stand for traditional elf wait and see attitude, hold off on involvement. Tauriel seems to represent the side of the elves that slowly realizes they must get involved and can't withdraw or be isolationist while Middle Earth is going down the tubes. So she confronts Thran and Legolas that they both need to care. We see this engage or avoid conflict resolved in the actions of Elrond and Haldir in LOTR, Two Towers, when Rivendell sends aid to Helm's Deep, and when Elrond delivers the sword to Aragorn in Theoden's camp in LOTR, Return of King. Deep down inside the elves do the right thing, they just need different levels of time, motivation and a call to action to respond.

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate

Psychiatrist to Thran, Legolas and Tauriel: "Ok today I would like you to share some collective grief and resolve some issues....."


marary
Lorien

May 1 2015, 11:48am

Post #4 of 16 (3224 views)
Shortcut
Hello and welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll add by saying that I absolutely LOVED Thranduil and Tauriel as two sides of the Mirkwood politics coin. Their scenes together, especially in DOS, were very strong, and I'll out myself right now as having a bit of a soft-spot for the ever controversial T-girl. They were perfect foils for one another on the matters of both love and politics. I dig their story.

To contextualize Thranduil, you have to consider the current goings on in Mirkwood. As an above poster said, the elves of the Woodland Realm are under a bit of a siege and rather isolated from the other kingdoms and strongholds of Middle Earth. Several hundred years prior to the events of the Hobbit, things got so bad in south Mirkwood due to the darkening from Dol Guldur, that the elves had to retreat to the north. Their numbers are fewer, and they mostly take refuge in Thranduil's halls underground. The situation in Mirkwood is bad, but I got the impression that it got a bit "normalized" by Thranduil's will. He's thinking they can ride it out in the long-term.

Why does Tauriel take such issue with Thranduil wanting to hide away? My own fan theory is that Tauriel was a young elf who fled the south when the wood-elves retreated north. Likely orphaned, she was fostered in Thranduil's halls and grew up to be on the forest guard. She has a big personal motivation to take on the forces of Dol Guldur and has a keener empathy for other races affected by dark forces ("will they not spread to other lands?").

But Thranduil won't allow it, and his reasoning actually makes sense. The elves might not be able to contend with the power there, so why spend the lives? Elves can live a long time- they might as well just ride it out ("The forces of evil will rise and fall, but here in this kingdom, we will endure.)

So who's right? Tauriel, who'd like to charge into battle and fight the forces of evil, or Thranduil, who takes the more conservative approach to spare the lives of his people? I thought it was an interesting question held in the balance by these two wonderful elves. It doesn't really get resolved between them, but they do come to an understanding at the end.

Thranduil's isolationism and wish to spare elven lives definitely has a lot to due with the loss of his wife.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 1 2015, 2:28pm

Post #5 of 16 (3187 views)
Shortcut
The Curious Matter of Thranduil's Injury [In reply to] Can't Post

It is written that Elves tend to heal cleanly and without scarring (although even Elves are not capable of, say, regrowing a lost limb). So, the question is whether Thranduil healed from the wounds given to him by a dragon of the North (and he magically revives the memory of them) or were his injuries so severe, or of such a nature, that even an Elf could not wholly heal from them but he has to conceal them with a glamour?

Certainly, Thranduil's past encounter, in the film-universe, with a dragon was a significant factor in his decision to not intervene in Smaug's invasion of Erebor. He knew exactly how dangerous a dragon could be and chose not to risk his own people against Smaug; although his anger at King Thror for denying him his gems was perhaps the clincher.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 1 2015, 6:51pm

Post #6 of 16 (3134 views)
Shortcut
What do the elves have going for them in this era of Middle Earth? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Marary, where are the elf strongholds in this time period?? Grey Havens in the west by the sea, Elrond and Rivendell, Galadriel/Celeborn in Lorien, Thranduil in North Mirkwood?? That's about it as far as I know. Going book purist for a second, there is the character of Prince Imrahil in seaside kingdom near Gondor and he is of part elf descent, he is sometimes lamented for not being in the pictures by folks on the board. Was there elvish influence south of Gondor, by the Anduin to the Sea? You could escape by ship that way, until Sauron began to invade and control various parts of the Anduin?? Also those pirate strongholds, City of Corsairs. Interesting geo-political boundaries we're dealing with here.

You might divide elves we've seen in the movies into those who believe Middle Earth and its inhabitants are worth fighting for even if it means possible or definite loss for the elves, end of the 3rd age, diminishing as a people.

These might be Tauriel, Arwen, Galadriel and Celeborn. They seem to be more into the spirit of giving aid and taking a stand for the Free Folk, non elves.

Elrond seems shaded more towards flight and wants his daughter and household to leave, though he has a change of elf heart, and is of help to Aragorn personally and the armed forces at Helm's Deep. Elrond seems of the mind that the Free People are down to their last shot, so he will stick by them until the end, as the War of the Ring will be decisive either way. But while he is far sighted--he and Arwen have a vision of her and Aragorn's son, the prince of Gondor--and sees a slim chance Middle Earth will be saved, he doesn't see any future for the elves.

That leaves Thran as the pivot man, the idea of flight by the sea doesn't seem to be ingrained in him or his people--they are woodland elves--but he is uncertain as to how far to go with getting involved and seems skeptical of both his enemies and possible allies. Which is why the decisions he makes in the end are interesting and compelling.

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate, "To take part in or avoid war, that is the question..."-Thranduil/Hamlet.


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 1 2015, 7:07pm

Post #7 of 16 (3127 views)
Shortcut
Elf wound or a symbol of it??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Otaku, we're getting into interesting areas of elvish medicine and healing. Elves can be killed in battle, though their ability to withstand injury must be quite a bit higher than a mortal's. One might be led to believe that they would survive a sword cut or stabbing by an orc. But perhaps the dragon Thran fought blasted the skin off his face with fire and heat, or clawed him in the face. This would require special kinds of healing, medicines, salves, magic spells??

And there is the question of is it really an existing wound, that Thran has buried through elf willpower and magic, or does Thran reveal this inner wound as a symbol of what he has been through to Thorin?? Shows his inner pain for a few seconds to make his point. Not a physical wound, but he's showing Thorin his past, the price he has paid with dragons.

Still find it an intrigue moment and makes me think that was a heck of a dragon battle.

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate, hoping the Shire is always green and sunny.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 1 2015, 8:29pm

Post #8 of 16 (3103 views)
Shortcut
Questions, questions... [In reply to] Can't Post

Elves seemed to be immune to natural disease (although not to poisons), but I'm not sure that they were much more likely to survive a sword thrust than a Man. If one did survive the wounding, though, he was much less likely to succumb to complications such as infection.

I think that movie-Thranduil was badly wounded in the past by a dragon. What I wonder about is whether or not he fully, physically healed. Which is illusion? the scar or his healed vistage?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


arithmancer
Grey Havens


May 2 2015, 3:09pm

Post #9 of 16 (3037 views)
Shortcut
This is ... [In reply to] Can't Post

more or less how I understand Thranduil's arc, except that I do not connect it to the dragon/injury thing.

To me it made a lot of sense when Legolas spoke of the old was against Angmar, and that his mother died there. The isolationism, and the emotional distance both make sense to me as a consequence of those events.

As a result, I also see Legolas's decision and Tauriel's story as catalysts for some healing for Thranduil - he speaks to Legolas of his mother, which he has not done before.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 2 2015, 7:48pm

Post #10 of 16 (3002 views)
Shortcut
Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
more or less how I understand Thranduil's arc, except that I do not connect it to the dragon/injury thing.

To me it made a lot of sense when Legolas spoke of the old was against Angmar, and that his mother died there. The isolationism, and the emotional distance both make sense to me as a consequence of those events.

As a result, I also see Legolas's decision and Tauriel's story as catalysts for some healing for Thranduil - he speaks to Legolas of his mother, which he has not done before.


Yes; if the Witch-king had allied himself with a dragon in Angmar then I think that the White Council would have taken the threat of Smaug's presence in Erebor much more seriously. If Thranduil's queen had died as a result of the conflict with Angmar then I very much doubt that a dragon was involved.

The Fall of Angmar in the film-universe seems to have kicked off Peter Jackson's version of the 400 years of the Watchful Peace; this event must have happened much more recently than it did in Tolkien's legenderium (the Tale of Years gives TA 1975 as the year of the Witch-king's defeat--almost 1000 years before the Quest of Erebor).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


marary
Lorien

May 3 2015, 9:45am

Post #11 of 16 (2965 views)
Shortcut
great assessment! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello 13th warrior!

The elves' diminishing hold over Middle Earth is important to contextualize Thranduil.

Thranduil sort of justifies his isolationism by reasoning that the elves can "ride it out". As he said, "one hundred years is but a blink in the life of an elf". Things can be bad for a century, and then they get better. It's not worth dying over, because, as elves, they will live to see better days in ME.

But he's content to let the other free peoples do the legwork.

Tauriel, a far younger elf, might not have the context of such long-swaths of time, and maybe that's why she has a harder time accepting this stance.

Thranduil hiding away in his halls while things get bad in the outside world really reflects dragon-crazy Thorin refusing to join the battle while his kin gave their lives outside.


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 4 2015, 4:51pm

Post #12 of 16 (2852 views)
Shortcut
Isolationism=Checkmated?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Marary--These Hobbit films are a good character study in the old Hamlet indecision, do i take action or not, hide, spy, observe from a distance, and how long to let the crisis go until I do get involved??? And how do I involved others, allies or enemies, in the plot?

Breaking with isolationism, Thranduil was finally spurred to action by orc attacks, circumstance, forces of history, Tauriel, Legolas, his own desire for treasure, perhaps seeing a chance to make a quick no brainer alliance with Bard, now with the status of dragonslayer, and the people of Laketown.

Thorin however was nearly overcome by gold and dragon fever and was indeed hiding in his halls using your phrase, basically looking to bury himself deep in Erebor as the battle raged outside. He luckily responds to his comrades' begging him to come back to the fight, and redeems himself and his life, his people in the process as he sacrifices himself in battle. Thorin, a tragic hero??

I think of the miserable end Thorin would have been had the orcs won the Battle of 5 Armies, and tracked him and the dwarves, and Bilbo down and killed them inside the Mt. - in the halls of his people, final death of their former glory. As it stood, he and others died so the Lonely Mt. and Laketown and Dale and the Iron Hills/Dain would have a new golden era which they did. Tolkien seems to plot this out all the time, the goodness comes from fighting for things and people and lands worth fighting for.

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate, "Do or do not, there is no try"--Yoda.


marary
Lorien

May 4 2015, 6:03pm

Post #13 of 16 (2835 views)
Shortcut
Thorin = Textbook tragic hero [In reply to] Can't Post

Richard Armitage in these films was nothing short of Shakespearean.

Tragic hero, "fatal flaw" being the lust for gold.

Had the dragon-sickness not taken hold, would he have met the same heroic end?

One key result of the dragon-sickness and greed was that Thorin called Dain's army to defend the mountain against men and elves. Dain's forces, originally called for more greedy purpose (and there's also room for debate there!), may be been crucial to holding the lands of Dale and Erebor.

Something to think about... Wink


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 4 2015, 9:03pm

Post #14 of 16 (2805 views)
Shortcut
Great acting and visual conceptions too.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Marary, yes, Richard Armitage delivered a fine acting job, really a great character arc from adventure and courage to greed and madness to redemption. That is the stuff of the Bard ((hoho, pun intended to Shakespeare and the Bowman)) and other great storytellers. Armitage really had a lot of work to do going from the heights to the depths with lots of twists and turns in between.

His drowning in a pool of gold, a mad vision, was inspired and a great symbol of his plight.

Also the end of battle of 5 armies, was it worth it, this war for gold, dragons, revenge, the different races of middle earth conflicting?? there are movies like "treasure of sierra madre"-classic bogart where the treasure hunters all get paranoid and turn on each other, "the good the bad and the ugly" eastwood and 2 other amoral gunmen types are after buried treasure and will go to any length to get it, and indy jones, "the last crusade" where indy avoids temptation, leaves the holy grail alone while the greedy nazi blonde hottie archeologist goes for it and perishes.

Hobbit films are in this vein, what does the power of gold, and the ring do to us? who can withstand it? who succumbs? all great dramatic questions....

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate, From Bungalow at The Prancing Pony.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 7 2015, 1:50pm

Post #15 of 16 (2641 views)
Shortcut
Richard, Thorin and the dragon-sickness [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Richard Armitage in these films was nothing short of Shakespearean.

Tragic hero, "fatal flaw" being the lust for gold.

Had the dragon-sickness not taken hold, would he have met the same heroic end?

One key result of the dragon-sickness and greed was that Thorin called Dain's army to defend the mountain against men and elves. Dain's forces, originally called for more greedy purpose (and there's also room for debate there!), may be been crucial to holding the lands of Dale and Erebor.

Something to think about... Wink





I've said it before, I think Richard was totally robbed as far as acting awards go - at least he was recognized for "The Crucible." I haven't seen it yet, but will watch it someday I'm sure.

I realize it's a Greek thing, but sometimes the whole "tragic hero/fatal flaw" meme gets on my nerves. I realize, of course, that nobody's perfect and characters are a little more believable if they DO have moments of doubt, temptation or whatever. BUT on another thread there was the question of whether Thorin HAD to die to complete his arc, and that's my complaint. IF someone realizes they've made a mistake - for instance, Thranduil - and correct their actions, do they STILL have to die to atone? If that's the case, what's the point of reform? Obviously Thranduil didn't die after his change of heart. And I've got to say that book Thranduil didn't seem as greedy, yes he wanted the jewels but wasn't sure about going to war over them. And he was most willing to help Bard's people, something that was more incidental to movie Thranduil, who was also quite racist against the Dwarves, something never really mentioned in the book. But apparently both were suspicious and isolationist at the same time.

So, what would have happened to Thorin if he hadn't become so "dragon-sick?" Well, in the book he was mostly motivated by greed, but movie Thorin wanted to reclaim his homeland. I'm not sure that things would have been much different if Thorin hadn't become so "dragon-sick," he still would want to preserve Erebor and its treasure for the Dwarves, just like in the book. He would have offered Bard a small sum, probably not nearly enough, just like in the book. He would have still hated the Elves, for the same reason as the book. So to me, the only thing that might have been different is that he might have joined Dain sooner. We can speculate all day about whether an additional 13 Dwarvish fighters would have made much difference in the long run, and since in the book Bilbo was knocked out we don't really know what led to his being mortally wounded. Peter Jackson came up with, to me, a really good explanation for that (even if it didn't fit the book too well) and an awesome, well-choreographed fight scene! And don't get me started on that dying speech, oh, the feels!Unsure WHERE was Richard's nominations for that???



Richard was absolutely the right guy for this role, just as Martin and Ian were right for theirs.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 7 2015, 3:02pm

Post #16 of 16 (2634 views)
Shortcut
I have often wondered about that [In reply to] Can't Post

What Elrond was talking about with his 400 years of hard won, watchful peace. My Tolkien history is pretty scant, that's why I come here so often.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.