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arithmancer
Grey Havens
May 2 2015, 3:26pm
Post #51 of 68
(2085 views)
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The book is murky on this point...
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...the interpretation you offer is certainly possible; it is also possible to take Thorin's decision to enter the battle, in the book, as his seeing the error of his previous ways. It seems pretty clear to me that the screenwriters took this latter view of Thorin. His remarks to the Company before they all charge outare an admission of fault (
though I have no right to ask it of any of you", or words to that effect...). And when he is reunited with Bilbo in the midst of the battle he seems grateful for his presence.
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 2 2015, 4:20pm
Post #52 of 68
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It seems pretty clear to me that the screenwriters took this latter view of Thorin. His remarks to the Company before they all charge outare an admission of fault (
though I have no right to ask it of any of you", or words to that effect...).
Well yes. And no. Because I could see also, if I am going to charge into battle with little hope of survival, I could say I had no right to ask others to join me, for the last time. Because Thorin was always like that, taking on Azog head-on. "I will not die like this...cowering..."
So I kinda think it has a dual meaning, and also a real symbol of Thorin being himself again.
As a side note, Thorin has this great, perfect smile at the response of his Company, and I wish PJ had used a closer shot and held that for a few more seconds. Argh, the over-tight editing IMO
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marary
Lorien
May 2 2015, 6:05pm
Post #53 of 68
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If they would have stayed in the mountain, they would have died in a siege either by elves/men, or, at the time of "one last time", by orcs.
So their death may have already seemed a bit inevitable at this point. It would be real!Thorin's way to meet it on the battle field, rather than cowering behind a wall. (Thanks Kili, for reminding your uncle what being a Durin is all about!)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 3 2015, 4:08am
Post #54 of 68
(2039 views)
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There might be a way out... in the movie
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Because in the movie, Smaug didn't stampede the rear gate of Erebor as he did in the book. The dwarves had no way out in the book, but in the movie they might have one.
But Kili points out that fierce fighters as they were couldn't bear the massacre of cousins without throwing themselves in a common destiny, whatever could end. Tolkien didn't really tell how Thorin came to that conclusion, letting the audience speculate.
I think it may have worked as well on screen if the movie did the same.
Thorin's fight with dragon sickness can feel a little bit unnecessary, but it also kinda reminds the audience how movies of the middle last century would have cope with it : hypnosis was rather popular then, and served as a leitmotiv for many dramatic moves
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 3 2015, 1:51pm
Post #55 of 68
(2010 views)
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If they would have stayed in the mountain, they would have died in a siege either by elves/men, or, at the time of "one last time", by orcs.
So their death may have already seemed a bit inevitable at this point. It would be real!Thorin's way to meet it on the battle field, rather than cowering behind a wall. (Thanks Kili, for reminding your uncle what being a Durin is all about!)
The Men or Elves probably would not have killed Thorin or his companions in a siege; if any Dwarves of the company died that way it would be due to starving to death out of their own stubbornness Now, the Orcs are a different matter; they could simply absorb the losses that it would have taken to break Thorin's defenses.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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DisDwarfWoman
Rivendell
May 3 2015, 4:51pm
Post #56 of 68
(1989 views)
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You're right it is very open to interpretation.
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Which is half the fun, of course.
He could also have just decided that he needed to support Dain in battle. And the decision to leave the mountain (in the book) had nothing to do with his behavior towards Bard/Thranduil at all. Sort of like "he's my cousin and needs help, that comes first and I'll figure the rest out later".
I do think in the movie you're right, that Thorin sees it (at least in part) as a way to atone for his earlier behavior towards everyone.
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 3 2015, 5:55pm
Post #57 of 68
(1984 views)
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Disagree that Thorin needed reminding
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Thorin's way to meet it on the battle field, rather than cowering behind a wall. (Thanks Kili, for reminding your uncle what being a Durin is all about!)
E.g., partly being Thorin (LOL he may be bonkers but I love Thorin shooting off an arrow and the only one not to duck "I will put the next one between your eyes"    ), partly what Dwalin had said, partly all those voices in Thorin's head, and partly IMO that gorgeous so-called "messiah" scene - e.g.
Thorin walks out stripped to chain mail with a sword in his hand.
I interpret that as Thorin was going out to fight, no matter what.
Also - can't find the graphic with the Tolkien info - but something to do with the importance of a king in dwarf society, which in theory is brought out in the film tho not explained "where is Thorin, we need him..." and explained to me why Thorin refusing to go out into battle was such a bad thing re dwarves, and why Thorin's appearance would be something the dwarves would fiercely rally to. Anyway, it's something Thorin would have known - a dwarf king needs to be there.
Although re the trailers, at the time, I did think Kili was chastising Thorin - which he is - and that Thorin was walking up to remind Kili LOL of a few things.
And on a side note - the Fili-less-ness keeps popping up in threads -  - tho Aidan Turner does a fabulous job IMO, I often think how INTENSE it would have been if Fili had said "I will not hide...." *Sigh*.
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
May 3 2015, 7:18pm
Post #58 of 68
(1968 views)
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As I understand it, they were in a part of the battle where the fighting was particularly fierce - coupled with the fact that their enemies would be trying to kill the leaders on the opposing side - a fairly standard tactic, I think. So, all three would have been targeted specifically, if recognised on the battlefield. In the film, also, the leaders were specifically trying to kill each other. That kind of thing is likely to be quite dangerous.
The thing about battles is that pretty much anyone can get killed, more or less randomly, and anyone can survive, if they get lucky. So no one has to die - it's just the way it went on the day.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Lorien
May 3 2015, 8:02pm
Post #59 of 68
(1961 views)
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Let's review the sequence of events from Kili's perspective:
-Thorin is dragon-crazy and refusing to fight. Thorin is mad. Dwarves are sad.
-Thorin emerges from the throne room, probably to be a jerk again...
-Kili sees him coming an says "I will not hide... while others fight our battles for us!"
-Thorin suddenly redeemed by Kili's words ("sons of Durin") and chooses to fight! Yay!
I'm totally convinced that Kili THINKS his words brought Thorin around. I mean, he wasn't there for the melty-gold-floor scene. That's my headcanon and I'm sticking to it!
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lionoferebor
Rohan
May 3 2015, 11:17pm
Post #60 of 68
(1943 views)
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So their death may have already seemed a bit inevitable at this point. It would be real!Thorin's way to meet it on the battle field, rather than cowering behind a wall. (Thanks Kili, for reminding your uncle what being a Durin is all about!)
If anyone reminded Thorin of what being a Durin is all about it was Dwalin. When Thorin emerges, after overcoming the dragon-sickness, it's obvious to us as the audience (at least it was to me) that he had already made up his mind they are no longer going to hide. That they are going to fight their fight. Of course the Dwarves don't know this, otherwise Kili probably would not have given his whole "I will not hide" speech. While what Kili said was quite powerful, IMO, it was more moving in the trailer because at that point I did not know all the details behind it. Once I saw the movie and realized it's Dwalin who puts Thorin in his place and that Thorin had already decide to fight before Kili said anything, the whole moment kind of lost it's umph.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
May 3 2015, 11:56pm
Post #61 of 68
(1929 views)
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And on a side note - the Fili-less-ness keeps popping up in threads - - tho Aidan Turner does a fabulous job IMO, I often think how INTENSE it would have been if Fili had said "I will not hide...." *Sigh*.
I agree it would have been very moving if Fili had said "I will not hide..." And not in re to him being Thorin's heir, but because of the love he had for his family. All of the Dwarves loved their family - no doubt - but it resonated most with Fili. So, IMO, it would've been very moving for the one who chose family over his inheritance - re "I belong with my brother" - to confront Thorin in this matter.
However I disagree on two fronts. First is the timing. IMO, whether Kili or Fili said it, the "I will not hide" speech would've been more moving before Thorin had come out of his dragon-sickness and made up his mind they were going to fight. Once he made up his mind the "I will not hide" moment - other than adding some emotion - was basically irrelevant, because the audience (at least I did) knows there was no more convincing to be done. 
Second, while I can see Fili saying it, IMHO, I don't think it would've been delivered the same way. To me he would've pulled Thorin aside or approached him in the same way Dwalin did. I don't see him confronting Thorin out in the open in front of everyone.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 4 2015, 12:06am
Post #62 of 68
(1929 views)
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AGREED...Kili.. IS... the Catalyst..
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Thorin & Kili even look like each other...
Someone needed to Talk
Some
Sense into him..
That LINE of dialogue needed to HAPPEN...
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 4 2015, 1:46pm
Post #63 of 68
(1902 views)
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That was probably the most shocking scene in the trailer for me, that even Dwalin was calling him out. He's the most loyal, right by your side Leftenant anyone could ask for, just goes to show how bad Thorin had become. I also love the whole "gold floor" scene (This floor is freaking me out, bwahahaha!) and the symbolism of Thorin being swallowed by the gold, BUT that was triggered by Dwalin confronting him. Clearly Dwalin didn't want to hide while Dain fought for him, no way! And this has been mentioned before, but you could see Thorin start to crack, the old Thorin start to come out, and I believe he was warning Dwalin to "get out, before I kill you." The look on his face, well, I can't say enough about RA's acting in that scene! In fact, I know I've said that before. As for Kili, well he's more impulsive than Fili and had previously tried to talk with Thorin re: the Laketown survivors, so it makes sense to me that he'd have that outburst, but I think it looked better in the trailer. Every time I see it in the movie I just think it's off that he'd start talking like that. Perhaps there was a previous conversation before Thorin showed up that wasn't included in the TE - man, that EE has got a LOT of filling in to do! I could see that, maybe a few of the dwarves grumbling about doing nothing while Dain's troops were fighting & dying, and then Kili sees Thorin and just looses it. Yeah, I could see it; hopefully we WILL see it in the EE.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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DisDwarfWoman
Rivendell
May 4 2015, 10:10pm
Post #64 of 68
(1864 views)
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and that part of the movie too
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That was probably the most shocking scene in the trailer for me, that even Dwalin was calling him out
Loved it though, especially how Dwalin doesn't even flinch when Thorin takes a swing at him, but then looks like he got punched in the stomach after the line you mentioned, so good.
It feels like there's a scene missing before Kili's line to me too. It would be great to see all of the dwarves having a conference while Thorin is having his hallucination. Perhaps after Dwalin comes back, and tells them what Thorin said.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
May 5 2015, 1:38am
Post #65 of 68
(1851 views)
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He's the only character I know who can threaten to rip a child's arms off and I still want to take him home with me. And that scene with Thorin and Dwalin is easily one of the best scenes in the entire trilogy. Both RA and GM are absolutely brilliant in it! Okay, they're always brilliant.
In fact, I know I've said that before. As for Kili, well he's more impulsive than Fili and had previously tried to talk with Thorin re: the Laketown survivors, so it makes sense to me that he'd have that outburst, but I think it looked better in the trailer. Every time I see it in the movie I just think it's off that he'd start talking like that. Perhaps there was a previous conversation before Thorin showed up that wasn't included in the TE - man, that EE has got a LOT of filling in to do! I could see that, maybe a few of the dwarves grumbling about doing nothing while Dain's troops were fighting & dying, and then Kili sees Thorin and just looses it. Yeah, I could see it; hopefully we WILL see it in the EE.
I agree, a Kili is more impulsive than his brother, but I could see Fili saying something along those lines. Kili may have previously confronted Thorin about the suffering of the Lake-men, but his "I will not hide" speech is more aimed at standing by your kin. Considering Fili choose to stand by his brother in DOS - re "I belong with my brother" - I can see him confronting Thorn about fighting along side Dáin and his men.
However, what I cannot see is Fili delivering the line in the same way as Kili. As previously said, Kili is the more impulsive of the two. In that moment not only what Kili says is impulsive but the way in which it is said is also impulsive. Fili, IMO, probably would've pulled Thorin aside or approached him in the throne room in the same way Dwalin does.
Don't get me wrong it's a good scene, but I think it would've been more moving if it occurred before Thorin had overcome the dragon-sickness. In this way Kili would've acted as a catalyst, confronting a Thorin who needed some sense knocked into him. As it stands now Kili is confronting a Thorin who is clear of mind and has already decided to do the right thing.
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Lorien
May 5 2015, 4:02am
Post #66 of 68
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He's the only character I know who can threaten to rip a child's arms off and I still want to take him home with me. And that scene with Thorin and Dwalin is easily one of the best scenes in the entire trilogy. Both RA and GM are absolutely brilliant in it! Okay, they're always brilliant.
So agree with all of this. Once they decided that Dwalin was the "tough biker-dude lieutenant", he could have easily become a flat one-dimensional character. Major props to the writing team that they fully considered his relationship to Thorin as a long-time friend and loyal follower and let that gloriously run its course. That scene in the throne-room = one of the best in the trilogy.
]Don't get me wrong it's a good scene, but I think it would've been more moving if it occurred before Thorin had overcome the dragon-sickness. In this way Kili would've acted as a catalyst, confronting a Thorin who needed some sense knocked into him. As it stands now Kili is confronting a Thorin who is clear of mind and has already decided to do the right thing.
I actually disagree - it would have been repetitive, after having already seen Bilbo, Balin and Dwalin have scenes like this. Besides, Kili already had a moment of challenging Thorin while building the wall.
Having the nephew lose it in a big way and THEN have Thorin reveal himself as restored was SUCH a perfectly timed (and beautifully acted) moment. I don't think changing the sequence would have improved the film.
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 5 2015, 7:25pm
Post #67 of 68
(1801 views)
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I disagree, but that's OK....(a bit OT tho...)
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I'm totally convinced that Kili THINKS his words brought Thorin around. I mean, he wasn't there for the melty-gold-floor scene. That's my headcanon and I'm sticking to it!
I think Thorin derails Kili - well, Thorin derails everyone *sitting around in despair* IMO (as well as thousands of fangirls), because there was no way to know that Thorin would implode internally and come to this senses, after the way he's been behaving. Kili's look exchange with Bofur re Thorin's "greeting" when they arrive at Erebor is priceless - no pun intended...
Beautiful Thorin - dragon sickness was just like carbon being pressured into diamonds.....
-Thorin emerges from the throne room, probably to be a jerk again...
Jerk? JERK???!!!! No such mundane colloquialism could ever be applied to the fiercely noble and proud mountain king - just because, happily, Thorin is no mewling "sensitive guy" wimpy pushover....how my heart BLEEDS for this regal being, pestered on all sides by the greasy RABBLE :
*Grins*
OH, OK - I went OT. So here's beautiful Kili:
(Just sayin', a part of me is always screaming at Tauriel "GO WITH HIM, LOOK AT HOW HANDSOME HE IS! LOOK AT HIM LOOKING BACK AT YOU!!!! THERE'S STILL TIME, CAN'T YOU SWIM???!!! GO AFTER HIM!!! Oh, you *puts heads head down and cries.....*)
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mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien
May 10 2015, 9:47pm
Post #68 of 68
(1682 views)
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because Tolkien was not a good writer
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After the movies i decided to read all the books and I must say
they dissapointed me a lot.
Loved the movies much more and understand now whay PJ had to make changes. Wish he has kept Frodo out of the movies and make Bilbo the hero that stayed young and brought the ring to mount doom
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