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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 7:46pm
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Dol Guldur - history and PJ's interpretation
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Have you heard that PJ's idea of Dol Guldur's history was this: ages past, Numenorians travelled with the elves east to Greenwood and built Dol Guldur (that's why we see Numenorian architecture there, like the statue from which the Witchking emerges in AUJ; and remember when we saw Kingsfoil in Laketown in DOS? Probably because of the Numenorian presence at Dol Guldur there is Kingsfoil in those parts, as Bard said it was a weed there?). However, it was taken over by orcs, following which it was abandoned, apparently according to PJ Oropher dwelt elswhere and not on Amon Lanc; and years later, during the Quest of Erebor, the Necromancer first comes to Dol Guldur.
What is your opinion on PJ's interpretation of Dol Guldur and its history and architecture?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:39am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 9:30pm
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Yeah. I read some of this elsewhere.
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It works well enough for the film-canon, but I still prefer Tolkien's version. One wonders if the Numenoreans who built Dol Guldur would have been among the Faithful or if they were the majority who had turned away from the Valar and included servants of Sauron? It might have been a bastion of evil right from the beginning. But then, Black Numenoreans would not have been allied with Elves.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 9:42pm
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It certainly, at least IMO, was not a bastion of evil, however, the orcs inhabiting it after taking it over made it look so decaying and evil. Then probably the orcs were driven off, the fortress stayed abandoned for a long time, then, during the Quest of Erebor the Necromancer settled in. I personally prefer the movie depiction of the fortress l 
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:37am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 10:55pm
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If the Numenoreans who built the fortress were allied with Elves then they would not have been followers of Sauron. That does make me wonder what the original name of the stronghold would have been.
Another possibility is that the Men of Numenor abandoned Dol Guldur when the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor were formed. Orcs could have taken over the fortress later. Dunlendings, bandits and other evil Men might have controlled the place at times as well.
Minor Correction: Sauron as the Necromancer would have needed to have occupied Dol Guldur at some time before the Quest of Erebor; the decay of the Forest had been going on for some time already. The influence of Radagast on the area near Rhosgobel probably kept it clear for longer than the surrounding regions, keeping him from noticing it right away.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 28 2015, 10:57pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 29 2015, 4:42am
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I meant that the Necromancer has come recently before the Quest of Erebor, and he hasn't been in Dol Guldur before, like in the book.
Probably the Numenorians did abandon it when Arnor and Gondor were founded, or even some time earlier. Though it could have been taken from them by orcs instead.
When watching DOS I wondered why there was Kingsfoil in Laketown, aa it grew only whete Numenorians once settled, but the past Numenorian occupation of Dol Guldur explains it: maybe the Numenorians went near Laketown at some time, or they introduced the plant to the Wood Elves and the Northmen.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 5:02am)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 29 2015, 6:50am
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He mentioned it was meant to be built by Numenorians in the BOTFA Art and Design book. Also, search in google for 'the hobbit dol guldur numenorian' and you will find another place where it is said to be Numenorian :)
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Arannir
Valinor
Apr 29 2015, 8:02am
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Why make it Numenorian when you don't have any of those in the movie.
Why not make a connection with Thranduil if it is already in the books?
And if you develop a story of Thranduil's wife, why don't you have her having died during some sort of sack of Dol Guldur instead of bringing in Angmar? Give Thranduil some immediate connection to Dol Guldur and the Evil that dwells there.
But... oh well.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 29 2015, 8:28am
Post #9 of 15
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I personally am okay with Dol Guldur being Numenorian
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And I like it the way it is - an old Numenorian fortress having been inhabited by orcs, falling into ruins and then being occupied by the Necromancer.
Also, talking about Thranduil's wife, I don't see how she could have died at Dol Guldur, as the Necromancer has only recently come to the fortress.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 29 2015, 1:01pm
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Tolkien indicated that the fortress was built by Sauron and his servants. I don't think that there is any definitive statement about the origins of Dol Guldur in the film-canon.
John Howe, in TH:BotFA Chronicles: Art & Design, said: We know little of Dol Guldur, but we have a hunch that it might well be Númenórean, like so many of the vast and long-abandoned edifices of Middle-earth (Alan and I hid away hints of Númenórean architecture throughout the landscape of The Lord of the Rings).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 29 2015, 1:12pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 29 2015, 2:57pm
Post #12 of 15
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That is right what I meant I read: they speculate it was Numenorian, and so made Dol Guldur look like a mannish structure in ruins.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 29 2015, 4:19pm
Post #13 of 15
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That doesn't imply any alliance with the local Elvish people though. And it does leave open the possibility that Dol Guldur was built by the Numenoreans who had been swayed towards evil by Sauron. They might have even driven the Wood-elves out of Southern Mirkwood in the universe of the films. There are a number of different possibilities involving either the Numenorean Faithful or those who returned to Middle-earth as conquerors. and tyrants.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 29 2015, 4:30pm
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It is possible it was built by Numenorians who served Sauron, although then it should have been mentioned in the Art and Design book of BOTFA that the Numenorians who built it served Sauron.
I'd just like to think it was built by the faithful Numenorians .
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 29 2015, 9:05pm
Post #15 of 15
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It is possible it was built by Numenorians who served Sauron, although then it should have been mentioned in the Art and Design book of BOTFA that the Numenorians who built it served Sauron. I'd just like to think it was built by the faithful Numenorians .
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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