|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 6:53pm
Post #26 of 57
(1320 views)
Shortcut
|
You make an interesting point. We know that the Elvenking disliked Dwarves in general because of the ruin of Doriath and the slaying of King Thingol, his kin, over the Naugamir at the hands of the Dwarves of Nogrod.
The Elves might have blamed Durin's Folk for attracting the attention of Smaug. However, Thranduil had a sweet-tooth for treasure himself, so this seems a bit hypocritical if it is true. Even so, the Wood-elves seem to have been the least affected by Smaug's presence out of all of those dwelling close to the Mountain. The presence of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur had a far more direct impact on them.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 7:15pm
Post #27 of 57
(1312 views)
Shortcut
|
So, after all, the Lotro location of Thorin's halls seems to be the most probable, and true to Karen Wynn Fonstad's guide.  .
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:39am)
|
|
|
marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 7:18pm
Post #28 of 57
(1310 views)
Shortcut
|
Maybe veering a bit off-topic here, but upon reading the history of Mirkwood: I developed a suspicion that when the character of Tauriel was drafted for the film, they had her backstory really tie in with the advance of the "shadow" from Dol Guldur. She would have been alive (and pretty young) when the elves retreated from the south, and there are some production notes saying her parents were killed by orcs (orcs from Dol Guldur maybe?). I just bet they intended her to be one of the elves who retreated from the south. It would make a lot of sense with how she relates to Thranduil. (headcanon speculation over)
I agree that of people in the northern lands, the elves suffered the least from Smaug. They were already suffering pretty badly from the Necromancer. Thranduil turning away really fits. He has to focus on the more immediate threat.
Kinda wish the films had touched a bit more on how Dol Guldur affected the Mirkwood elves. To be fair, it's very present subtextually.
Really digging the discussions of demographics and geography. Middle Earth style. :D
(This post was edited by marary on Apr 28 2015, 7:24pm)
|
|
|
marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 7:22pm
Post #29 of 57
(1304 views)
Shortcut
|
|
distance of Thorin's halls to the Shire?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Also, how much trade/relations went on between Ered Luin and the Shire?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 7:29pm
Post #30 of 57
(1300 views)
Shortcut
|
So, after all, the Lotro location of Thorin's halls seems to be the most probable, and true to Karen Wynn Fonstad's guide. .
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 7:43pm
Post #31 of 57
(1295 views)
Shortcut
|
I'd say at least 200 miles between Thorin's Halls to West Farthing. Another 100 miles to reach Hobbiton.
Also, how much trade/relations went on between Ered Luin and the Shire? I'm guessing not very much. The hobbits probably had their own smiths, but dwarves might have produced fine metalwork for the well-to-do. On the other hand, the dwarves must have traded and provided services for cloth, produce and other materials that they would not have made or grown for themselves.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 7:44pm
Post #32 of 57
(1295 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Gate on the western side of Ered Luin?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1. I've never seen a gate leading to Thorin's halls on the western side of the Blue Mountains in Lotro  where is it exactly?
2. Also, don't worry about straying off topic talking about Dol Guldur  speaking of it, I created another topic for discussion on Dol Guldur, here is it: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=852274;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:39am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 7:46pm
Post #33 of 57
(1293 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tauriel and the Darkening of Mirkwood
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Maybe veering a bit off-topic here, but upon reading the history of Mirkwood: I developed a suspicion that when the character of Tauriel was drafted for the film, they had her backstory really tie in with the advance of the "shadow" from Dol Guldur. She would have been alive (and pretty young) when the elves retreated from the south, and there are some production notes saying her parents were killed by orcs (orcs from Dol Guldur maybe?). I just bet they intended her to be one of the elves who retreated from the south. It would make a lot of sense with how she relates to Thranduil. (headcanon speculation over) I'm not sure if we should connect the deaths of Tauriel's parents to the Darkening of Mirkwood. If it had begun 600 years before the events of the films then I would have thought that Radagast would have noticed much, much earlier that something was up.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 7:55pm
Post #34 of 57
(1286 views)
Shortcut
|
True! That was a bit strange to me!
I'm guessing Radagasts' discovery that "holy bleep there be spiders here!" was for cinematic purposes only. ;) In the book, even Beorn knew there had been bad things going on in the south for quite a while, and Gandalf expressly warns them not to go anywhere near Dol Guldur. They know what's up.
The darkening of Mirkwood also subject to a Jackson movie timeline shift?
And for that matter, where in the forest did Radagast actually live?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 7:56pm
Post #35 of 57
(1287 views)
Shortcut
|
1. I've never seen a gate leading to Thorin's halls on the western side of the Blue Mountains in Lotro Unimpressed where is it exactly? That is assuming that I'm reading the map right. The map below seems to show something called Thorin's Gate opening on the west side of the mountains to the north of the river that runs through North Lindon.
LOTRO Map of Ered Luin: https://lotro-wiki.com/...px-Ered_Luin_map.jpg
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 8:04pm
Post #36 of 57
(1284 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It is on the Eastern side of the Blue Mountains
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thorin's Halls is on the Eastern side of the Blue Mountains on that map, and its gate opens to the southeast - thete is no gate to the west, to the west it's the mountains.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:38am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 8:15pm
Post #37 of 57
(1279 views)
Shortcut
|
The darkening of Mirkwood also subject to a Jackson movie timeline shift?
And for that matter, where in the forest did Radagast actually live? In Tolkien's canon, Sauron first took up residence in the Greenwood around TA 1050, not long after the Istari arrived in Middle-earth. Peter Jackson altered that by almost 2000 years.
Rhosgobel, where Radagast lived was on the Western Eaves of Mirkwood. However, I've seen Rhosgobel placed anywhere from near the Narrows of the Forest to north of the Old Forest Road. Weta's map of Wilderness places it close to Southern Mirkwood: https://www.wetanz.com/...twilderlandalrg8.jpg.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 8:18pm
Post #38 of 57
(1279 views)
Shortcut
|
Thorin's Halls is on the Eastern side of the Blue Mountains on that map, and its gate opens to the southeast - thete is no gate to the west, to the west it's the mountains. I was looking at the north end of Thorin's Gate and I just wasn't sure how to read the game-map.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 8:21pm
Post #39 of 57
(1276 views)
Shortcut
|
Although the White Council was already well aware of some being calling himself "The Necromancer" in Dol Guldur. Was Radagast merely becoming more aware of his expansion in his AUJ sequence?
Also, what were the actual symptoms of the dark force in Dol Guldur?
What I have so far:
-Lots of spiders! Icky.
-Fewer edibles in the forest (Beorn tells the company that they won't find much to eat in there when he supplies them - book only)
-Death of hedgehogs! Noooo! Not the hedgehogs! (movie only)
So, that's enough bad stuff going on to drive the elves north. Any confirmation that there were orc packs and colonies as well causing the elves trouble and leading to the retreat?
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 8:26pm
Post #40 of 57
(1269 views)
Shortcut
|
Since mentioning Weta maps, does anyone know a map made by Weta, or anyone else, that shows the location of the High Fells in the movies?
Was it somewhere near the Ettenmoors?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:38am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 8:38pm
Post #41 of 57
(1266 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Corruption of the Greenwood.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Yes, Sauron does take his time. He was interrupted, though. (Book-) Gandalf first investigated Dol Guldur in TA 2063, even before the White Council was formed, but Sauron eluded the Wizard and fled into the East for 400 years (the Watchful Peace of Tolkien's legendarium) and Gandalf learned nothing of value.
Sauron returned to Mirkwood in 2460. Gandalf again investigated Dol Guldur in 2850, this time both learning the identity of the Necromancer and finding the dying Thrain in the dungeons of the fortress and receiving the map and key to the secret door from him. So you can see that Jackson changed quite a bit.
Both the plants and the animals were affected by the corruption of the Forest. Many creatures acquired black fur, feathers, etc.; and their flesh became foul-tasting. The Spiders were probably spawing in the Mountains of Mirkwood.
I'm sure that Sauron as the Necromancer commanded Orcs, but he was also seducing local Woodmen into his service and may have also had Easterling commanders. In the movies, I was hoping to see some nods to LotR and other sources such as having a Wight as a guard in the dungeons or a Werewolf guarding the entrance.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 8:45pm
Post #42 of 57
(1263 views)
Shortcut
|
Sorry, I have never seen any map from Weta that showed the High Fells (even though the location was invented for the films), The High Fells were supposed to be in Rhudaur--maybe between Rivendell and the Coldfells, near the High Pass. Or it might have been closer to the Ettenmoors. The tombs, though, were far enough into the Misty Mountains for Gandalf to reach them from the east side of the range in TH:DoS.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 8:55pm
Post #43 of 57
(1258 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The High Fells near Ettenmoors?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Well, maybe they were near the Ettenmoors. At least in Lego the Hobbit it is portrayed as being located just north of the Hoarwell river; does its location in Lego the Hobbit seem possible?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:38am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 9:07pm
Post #44 of 57
(1254 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, maybe they were near the Ettenmoors. At least in Lego the Hobbit it is portrayed as being located just north of the Hoarwell river; does its location in Lego the Hobbit seem possible? In Tolkien's canon, at least, I don't think that the borders of Rhudaur would have extended to north of the Hoarwell, but Peter might have expanded them to include the Ettenmoors and the wastes beyond, right up to the Mountains of Angmar. As long as the Lego game put the tombs in the Misty Mountains it is probably close enough.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 28 2015, 9:09pm)
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 9:17pm
Post #45 of 57
(1251 views)
Shortcut
|
In DOS Extended Edition, you can see the rangers of the North entombing thr Witchking's body; and along with it, the bodies of all the Nazgul, defeated in Angmar. How is this possible - they are wraiths, they have no bodies?
Or in PJ's Middle-earth the Nazgul still had bodies when they were defeated and entombed?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:38am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 9:35pm
Post #46 of 57
(1243 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think that the Nazgul do still have bodies.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Ringwraiths have the wierd status of existing half-way between the realms of the living and the dead. I think that they still possess bodies, but their physical forms only exist partly in the natural world. They can't even be seen by most folk unless they are cloaked in normal clothes.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 9:38pm
Post #47 of 57
(1240 views)
Shortcut
|
In the Hobbit movies the Nazgul are said to have all been killed at the destruction of Angmar - how could they be killed and entombed without reshaping? Was it because of the 'powerful spell' that lied upon the tombs?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:37am)
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 28 2015, 10:23pm
Post #48 of 57
(1233 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien's Nazgul had bodies too.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Well at least the WK did (at least some of the time). Tolkien notes his "flesh" and "sinew" in ROTK.
It is also, I think, the case that the films don't describe them as being killed. The words "dead" and "entombed" are used, but then Tolkien uses the term "undead" too.
In general the Nazgul are very opaque/ artfully mysterious/ deeply inconsistent. They certainly don't fit very well into "categories" of fantasy creatures which have developed since LOTR/TH were published.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 10:42pm
Post #49 of 57
(1232 views)
Shortcut
|
In the Hobbit movies the Nazgul are said to have all been killed at the destruction of Angmar - how could they be killed and entombed without reshaping? Was it because of the 'powerful spell' that lied upon the tombs? I think that 'killed' is a poor choice of words. The Nine had already been Wraiths for over 1000 years at the end of the Second Age. They were captured, subdued, restrained, entombed, but I don't think it would be remotely accurate to say that they were killed.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 29 2015, 4:33am
Post #50 of 57
(1213 views)
Shortcut
|
Actually, if they have bodies, why in LOTR return of the king when eowyn kills the Witchking he turns to metal scrap?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 5:04am)
|
|
|
|
|
