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boldog
Rohan
Apr 28 2015, 9:59am
Post #1 of 16
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Why didn't the Dwarves of Erebor flee to the Iron hills?
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I think of this all the time when I watch Auj prologue.
In the movies, Thror apparently attempts to retake Moria after the fall of Erebor. This is either before or after the settling in the Blue mountains.
But why did they bother doing this? The Iron hills are SO much closer, especially than the Blue mountains, and they too are a well established Dwarf stronghold. Surely Dain would not turn his back on his own kin in exile, as Thranduil did.
Plus, settling in the Iron hills would have made Thorins quest far less treacherous.
Thoughts?
Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Apr 28 2015, 12:21pm
Post #2 of 16
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Possibly the population of Erebor was much too large to be resettled in the existing halls in the Iron Hills? But a real problem would have been the question of having two "kings" in one kingdom. Thror was king of all the Longbeards, so Dain was not only a relative of Thror, but also his subject; but Dain was also Lord of the Iron Hills, his own territory with his own followers. Having Thror move in would have caused quite an interesting situation politically - who would be in charge, Thror or Dain? Tolkien's dwarves are famous for holding on to anything they consider their own, so the idea that Dain would hand over the Iron Hills to Thror without any resentment or hard feelings is questionable. And the idea that Thror's pride would allow him to live as Dain's "guest" while leaving Dain in charge also seems unlikely. Possibly it was a combination of these factors that made it seem necessary for Thror's people to look for a new home elsewhere.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 12:41pm
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I also doubt that the Iron Hills could have easily absorbed the survivors of Erebor. I also think that the political situation would have been tricky at best.
In addition, Smaug might have been targeting Dwarves fleeing in the direction of Dain's colony.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 28 2015, 1:43pm
Post #4 of 16
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Didn't they say something in the book about this?
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Something like not begging for bread in better halls? I think it was a pride issue, better to have their own humble abode than live off charity in another kingdom. Man, where's Elizabeth when you need her?
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 3:17pm
Post #5 of 16
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The dwarves of Erebor got pretty scattered after Smaug came, it seemed to me. I thought that some went to the Iron hills (can't remember the source, but I'm sure I read this), but many were wandering for quite a while.
It was during this wandering that Thror led an army to retake Moria.
After Azanulbizar, Thorin established a new settlement in Ered Luin. Word got around to the wandering Erebor dwarves and they started gathering once more there.
Pretty sure Fili and Kili were born in Ered Luin after Thorin established those halls.
Can someone explain to me why Dain, a descendent of Durin, is a lord of the Iron Hills? It was never clear to me!
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Apr 28 2015, 4:36pm
Post #6 of 16
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His grandfather was the first Lord of the Iron Hills when the family split after constant attacks from Dragons in the Grey Mountains. His grandfather Gror decided to settle to the east of the Lonely Mountain where as his Grand-Uncle Thror settled in the Lonely Mountain. Their thought at the time was that if they split their people they, as a people, would more readily survive.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 28 2015, 5:47pm
Post #7 of 16
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In the films and certainly did in the books.
There is little evidence in the films that those fleeing Erebor stayed together as a block (indeed there are suggestions otherwise). Just as in the book, it seems there was a diaspora, with much wandering about the place prior to the attempt on Moria and some wandering after.
You are spot on throughout except I'm not sure that the Erebor dwarves did regather in the Blue Mountains. Tolkien tells us that Thorin and Thrain arrived with what remained of their group after Moria and that their numbers only slowly increased (do to the lack of female dwarves)
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Apr 28 2015, 5:49pm)
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Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 5:59pm
Post #8 of 16
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reading through the appendices now...
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And here's this lovely quote from after the battle for Moria:
When the dreadful fires were in ashes the allies went away to their own countries, and Dáin Ironfoot led his father's people back to the Iron Hills. Then standing by the great stake, Thráin said to Thorin Oakenshield: 'Some would think this head dearly bought! At least we have given our kingdom for it. Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?'
'To the anvil,' answered Thorin. 'The hammer will at least keep the arms strong, until they can wield sharper tools again.'
And that right there is one of the reasons Thorin is one of my favorite fictional characters ever. Gotta love those sons of Durin and their grit.
Anyway, a few paragraphs later:
So Thorin Oakenshield became the Heir of Durin, but an heir without hope. When Thráin was lost he was ninety-five, a great dwarf of proud bearing; but he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away.
So yes, Ered Luin did draw together many of the wandering Durin's folk.
And just for fun, an appendices footnote:
They had very few women-folk. Dís Thráin's daughter was there. She was the mother of Fíli and Kíli, who were born in the Ered Luin.
Because I always like imagining what their childhood may have been like. :)
ETA: They had few women and therefore increased slowly. But the population of Ered Luin did swell after Thorin had established his halls. The main export from Ered Luin under Thorin's rule was iron, not gold. :P
(This post was edited by marary on Apr 28 2015, 6:02pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 28 2015, 6:12pm
Post #9 of 16
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I couldn't place that latter but but you are spot on throughout then!
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 28 2015, 8:03pm
Post #10 of 16
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Nice!
So Thorin Oakenshield became the Heir of Durin, but an heir without hope. When Thráin was lost he was ninety-five, a great dwarf of proud bearing; but he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away.
Since I am not as well-read re Tolkien as I would like, and this ties directly to Balin's line "You have built a new life for us in the Blue Mountains. A life of peace, and plenty..."
(Thorin must have been a good king - another thing I like "he laboured long" e.g Thorin was never too proud to roll his sleeves up and work.)
"Mountain Pass by Sabin"
The Blue Mountains, or Ered Luin, is a great mountain chain in the west of Middle Earth. These mountains where the home of the twin dwarf cities of Belegost and Nogrod, and was once the border between Beleriand and Eriador. During the War of Wrath most of the Ered Luin sank into the sea, carrying the two dwarf kingdoms with it.
https://middleearth3791.wordpress.com/
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marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 8:30pm
Post #11 of 16
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Since I am not as well-read re Tolkien as I would like, and this ties directly to Balin's line "You have built a new life for us in the Blue Mountains. A life of peace, and plenty..."
Reading the Erebor/Durin's folk section of the Appendices as absolutely fascinating after reading/watching The Hobbit. They drew from the appendices a LOT for Thorin's overall character arc and motivations. And there's quite a few references to the appendices stories in the films. The Appendices turned the story of Durin's Folk into one of my absolute favorite dynastic arcs in all of ME.
(Thorin must have been a good king - another thing I like "he laboured long" e.g Thorin was never too proud to roll his sleeves up and work.)
Aaaaand, I think that's your cue to find a good screencap of Thorin at that anvil. 
Dwarves are all craftsmen are heart, and I expect the royalty were no exception. I suspect Thorin did not mind laboring hard; his issue was more in having to labor at the whims of men. (Speculation.) That was a bit in the movie that I can't source from canon (yet).
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Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 8:36pm
Post #12 of 16
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and still more appendices quoting
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Thorin was then a youngster in the reckoning of the Dwarves. It was afterwards learned that more of the Folk under the Mountain had escaped than was at first hoped; but most of these went to the Iron Hills.
Canon confirmation that Erebor refugees did flee to the Iron Hills and presumably settled there.
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L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens
Apr 29 2015, 3:28am
Post #14 of 16
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(in B-movie actor's voice): No! That's just what they'll be expecting us to do!//
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Lorien
Apr 29 2015, 5:27am
Post #15 of 16
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I wonder if many of the dwarves had wrecked their eyes smithing with all that slag flying around - only the youngest dwarves still had eyesight full intact (hence why they got landed with the scouting).
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Apr 29 2015, 6:57am
Post #16 of 16
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havent you ever heard of the stubbornness of dwarves?
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Do you mean re
[
, I question the *verisimilitude* of a blacksmith working without chest protection at least: 
, possibly - so at least all the dwarf actors could be pleased - especially Dwalin and the Durins - so often being depicted with the iron-hard physiques of body builders
. 
, except in was never seen in AUJ: 