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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 27 2015, 8:00pm
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Thorin's Halls in the Ered Luin?
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Ever since first watching the Hobbit AUJ I wondered: where did Thorin and his kin live in the Blue Mountains while in exile? These are some theory places I found:
-I play Lord of the Rings Online, and that game depicts Thorin's halls (the supposed name of Thorin's exile home) as being in the Southernmost parts of the Northern Blue Mountains, near the estuary of the river Lune.
-The LOTR wiki tells Thorin's halls is built on the ancient foundations of Nogrod (this might overlap with Lotro, as Nogrod's foundations could have been meant to be located in the Southernmost parts of the Northern Blue Mountains).
-Tolkien Gateway tells Thorin's halls is located a little north of the Little Lune river (the western tributary of the Lune river).
1. Which one of these is true according to Tolkien? If he hasn't told the exact location, which one of the mentioned above seems most probable to you?
2. In the Hobbit AUJ Dwalin tells Gandalf 'Thorin has gone to a meeting of their kin in Ered Luin, in the north'. Could this be a reference that the actual location is really near the Little lune river (at least according to the movies)?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:41am)
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
Apr 27 2015, 8:23pm
Post #2 of 57
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I think Tolkien Gateway is right
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1. I don't know off the top of my head. The majority of the sources I've found say North of the Little Lune River, but I know for a fact (at least I think I do) that Lune (Luhn) flows through Ered Luin. I would trust Tolkien Gateway a little bit more then LOTRO, just because LOTRO is an adaptation and is pretty accurate to the book, but changed some things.
2. Yeah, I don't think your confused about this, but Ered Luin is another name for the Blue Mountains. I'm a bit confused by the question, but if you mean that this means North of the Little Lune River is Ered Luin and where Thorin was in exile, then yes.
You might get more accurate answers then mine in the Reading Room.
"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 27 2015, 9:11pm
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Yep, I know Ered Luin means Blue Mountains  Also, is it true that Mount Dolmed probably survived the destruction of Beleriand (as in this map: http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/images/b/bc/Didier_Willis_-_Mount_Dolmed_and_Amon_Ereb.png)? In some places it is said that Mount Dolmed was not located at the location of the Gulf of Lune, but was located north of it, as on the map. That would place Belegost just south of the Little lune river, as mentioned in Tolkien gateway, and a short distance from Thorin's halls. Is it true/possible?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:41am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 27 2015, 9:37pm
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I don't think that Tolkien ever specified that Thorin's Halls were particularly close to the ruins of either Belegost or Nogrod. I know that Karen Fonstad placed them not too far from the Grey Havens, possibly less than 50 miles to the north. You are right, though, that the two old dwarven cities would have been just south of the source of the Little Lune. The land at the sites of Nogrod and Belegost seems to have subsided during the Second Age, leaving valleys and passes where they once stood; I'm not sure where in that area Thrain would have built a new community.
That doesn't mean that Thorin's Halls couldn't have been built close to Belegost or Nogrod, but I see little evidence for it.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 27 2015, 9:46pm
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Yes, both Mount Dolmed and Mount Rerir seem to have survived to the Third Age. Rerir is at the same latitude as the Isle of Himling. Dolmed is less than 150 miles to the south, bordering a large forest at its southern base.
The ruins of Belegost would have been on the eastern side of the Ered Luin just south of the Little Lune River. Nogrod would have been twenty miles or so to the south of Belegost.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 27 2015, 9:52pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 27 2015, 9:57pm
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If indeed "halls" is the right idea.
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Thorin was rather more humble about them being simply poor lodgings in exile. Perhaps he was being self-deprecating but I don't think we really know.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 27 2015, 11:07pm
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Thorin's digs needn't have been very grand.
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Thorin was rather more humble about them being simply poor lodgings in exile. Perhaps he was being self-deprecating but I don't think we really know. Peter Jackson's idea of Thorin's Halls might have been fairly humble. On the other hand, even Tolkien would have probably described them as humble compared to Erebor.
Balin insisted that Thorin had done well by his folk, but we don't know exactly what he meant by that. I do tend to think that they were reasonably comfortable and secure though.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 27 2015, 11:16pm
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Sorry - that's a quote from the appendices, rather than a film reference. Thorin rather rejects Gandalf's description of his dwelling as "halls".
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 5:09am
Post #9 of 57
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So, the most probable location of Thorin's halls (according to the movie) would be north of the Little lune, or, as in Lotro, in the Southern parts of the Northern Blue Mountains?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:41am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 12:53pm
Post #10 of 57
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So, the most probable location of Thorin's halls (according to the movie) would be north of the Little lune, or, as in Lotro, in the Southern parts of the Northern Blue Mountains? I don't know about that. I don't think the movie gives any clues at all.
The LOTRO maps seem to bear little, if any, relation to Tolkien's Middle-earth or to Peter Jackson's films and don't look at all helpful.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 1:08pm
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I meant, as Dwalin said the halls were in the north, maybe he meant they were north of the Little lune?
At least what clues do the books give about the location of Thorin's halls? Was it really north of the Little lune, or near the Grey Havens, as in Lotro?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:40am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 1:54pm
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Keep in mind that the Blue Mountains extend both north and south of the Gulf of Lhune. The Northern Ered Luin is the entire part of the range that is north of the Grey Havens. Lhun was where the range was broken in the Great Battle at the end of the First Age.
Here is Fonstad's map: http://www.abo.fi/...ation_of_dwarves.gif
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 2:44pm
Post #13 of 57
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I already know well what you mentioned 
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:41am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 2:55pm
Post #14 of 57
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So you realize that there is no need to think that Thorin's Halls are north of the Little Lune or even very far from the Gulf and the Grey Havens. They might be near the ruins of the old Dwarf-cities of the First Age, but I don't know of any evidence that supports that claim.
I have wondered why none of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains seem to have settled in the Southern Ered Luin? Perhaps it was to maintain a united front? One colony is easier to defend than several smaller ones.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 3:38pm
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So, if Thorin's Halls are in the central parts of the Northern range, as on the map you posted, why did Dwalin tell that the halls were to the north? Or can their location (the location shown on the map) still be called north (north of Hobbiton)?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:40am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 4:03pm
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So, if Thorin's Halls are in the central parts of the Northern range, as on the map you posted, why did Dwalin tell that the halls were to the north? Or can their location (the location shown on the map) still be called north (north of Hobbiton)? Part of this might just be the difference between book and film. Tolkien simply wrote (in Appendix A):
So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Jackson and his crew may have placed the halls farther north than Professor Tolkien might have, but it is hard to be sure of Tolkien's original intent (unless someone has a more specific citation). I think that Fonstad's placement was an educated guess.
I do know that Fonstad placed Belegost much farther south than indicated by both the map and the text of The Silmarillion; she based her location on Tolkien's drawings and descriptions reproduced in HOME IV, The Shaping of Middle-earth. This might have also influenced her location for Thorin's Halls (although in the Third Age, her Belegost might be drowned under the Gulf of Lhune).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 28 2015, 4:12pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 4:29pm
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I personally can believe that thorin's halls were licated in the central parts of the Northern Blue Mountains, as on the map, but sources like Tolkien gateway tell the halls were located north of the Little lune, as there was Dwarf country. So which should we believe - Tolkien gateway or Fonstad?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:40am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 4:52pm
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I'm not sure what Tolkien Gateway is using as a source, unless its reasoning is based on the placement of Nogrod and Belegost in The Silmarillion.
I will admit to my own reasons for preferring a location closer to the Havens. I am composing my own, home-brewed adventure for The One Ring Roleplaying Game that involves ancient Dwarven mines in the north of the Blue Mountains and I don't want Thorin's Halls--or any other Third-Age Dwarf-settlement--to be too near to them. That said, above the Little Lune still seems a bit too far north to me; the Upper Northern Ered Luin just doesn't look like it should be inhabited. Some indication of a bridge or ford (not to mention a road) might change my opinion, but call it a personal bias. Closer to the ruins of Belegost and Nogrod seems a little more reasonable.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 28 2015, 4:53pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 5:26pm
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It really sounds probable for Thorin's Halls to be located closer to the Grey Havens, as it would take less time for Thorin's kin to reach it, at least less time than crossing the Little lune to settle there. I just thought Thorin wouldn't feel nice if he lived closer to the Grey Havens, because of his hate of elves.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:40am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 6:04pm
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Thorin's animosity towards Elves is mostly an invention of the films, created by Peter Jackson to heighten tension. He did hold a grudge against the Wood-elves, but that was strictly due to the company's capture and detention in Mirkwood.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 28 2015, 6:15pm
Post #21 of 57
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Actually a good quote from the thread further up
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Has the narrator of the appendices mention "fair halls" so this does seem like self-deprecation on Thorin's part.
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 6:16pm
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Thanks for the explanation.
On another question: Where exactly did the Great East Road end in the Blue Mountains?
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 29 2015, 1:40am)
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marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 6:28pm
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"fair halls" - as Balin in the film said
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They had it pretty okay in the Blue Mountains. Not super wealthy, but not too shabby either.
In the appendices, Thorin was content in Ered Luin for a while.
Now, my question is this: Did Ered Luin remain as something of a lesser dwarf kingdom after Erebor was reclaimed, or did all the Blue Mountain dwarves pack up and cross the Misty Mountains?
If they remained, who became lord of those halls in Thorin's absence?
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marary
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 6:32pm
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On the other hand, Thranduil is pretty suspicious and cruel to them from the start.
Thranduil capturing and imprisoning the dwarves makes waaaay more sense if there was a previously existing tension.
Another (headcanon) explanation for why the wood-elves didn't like the dwarves and treated the Company unkindly: they brought a dragon to the region and upset their trade with the men.
Things were not so great in Mirkwood throughout the events of the Hobbit and LOTR. The population of men (with whom they were known to trade) must have been diminished after the fall of Dale. On top of this, they already had the pressure of Dol Guldur from the south, leading to a big retreat and big dip in their population.
No wonder they were so cantankerous in the hobbit.
(This post was edited by marary on Apr 28 2015, 6:34pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 28 2015, 6:34pm
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On another question: Where exactly did the Great East Road end in the Blue Mountains? The Great East Road is said to run from the Grey Havens to Rivendell (although one still has to find the hidden path leading into Imladris). Karen Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth shows the base of the White Towers at theTower Hills as the western termination point.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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