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squire
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 7:59pm
Post #1 of 17
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**The Ring Goes South** - 5. They turned their backs on the Redhorn Gate, and stumbled wearily down the slope. Caradhras had defeated them.
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I apologize for the lateness of this last post, especially to CuriousG who is well into his own fine discussion of “A Journey in the Dark”. I was unfortunately and unforeseeably swamped by work last week, and have been struggling to pull this discussion together in various wee hours. Thanks in advance for your indulgence, and here we go with our heroes trapped in a raging blizzard!
5.1 The Storm Ends, Leaving Them Trapped By Drifts
Summary: The firewood is almost used up, but Aragorn says that dawn is “not far off”. Has the snow ended? Boromir says yes, and Frodo, hazy with sleep and cold, thinks the storm is perhaps ending. In the light of dawn they see that the landscape, and the path, is buried under many feet of snow, while more threatens from the clouds above. Gimli observes that if they move forward the snow will resume, and no one disagrees. But retreat is equally unlikely: the snow behind them is so deep as to be impassable.
A. Frodo is said to be sleepy, but did the entire company stay awake throughout the night?
We read that Elrond provided the company with “thick warm clothes, and they had jackets and cloaks lined with fur [and] Spare food and clothes and blankets and other needs…” There is no mention of tents, gloves, snowshoes, or a means to melt ice for drinking water. And Gandalf and Aragorn, clearly, expected to spend several nights at high altitude without a fire.
B. Even without the incident of the blizzard, was the company adequately equipped to cross an alpine pass in January?
5.2 The Men Start A Path Using Brute Force; The Elf Runs Off
Summary: Legolas snidely suggests that Gandalf use his magic to burn a path through the snow, but Gandalf says it doesn’t work that way: “I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow.’ Boromir volunteers himself and Aragorn to muscle their way down the slope to wherever the heavy snow ends. Legolas somewhat snottily tells the others that Elves “run light over snow” and takes off over the snowfields, overtaking the struggling Men, and vanishes in the distance.
Master Elf on Caradhras, by Helix Fate
I remember disliking Legolas intently when I first read this chapter, and I didn’t like him much better until quite a lot later in the story.
C. What is your feeling about how he conducts himself here?
“When heads are at a loss bodies must serve” says Boromir, quoting a Gondorian epigram.
D. What does the saying tell us about Gondor, and about Boromir?
Boromir points out that the problem is solvable if, as he hopes, they are stranded by only a furlong (660 feet) of truly heavy snow, and Aragorn responds in a manly way by suggesting that he and Boromir work as a team to clear the path. Remember that we last saw the two interact at the Council 11 weeks earlier; that they’ve been traveling together for two weeks now; that Boromir had to suggest the need for firewood; and that he had seen Aragorn and Gandalf decide to take the pass, with no requests for advice from any of the others. Given all that:
E. How does Boromir see Aragorn?
F. What is Aragorn’s attitude towards Boromir at this point?
G. How does Legolas walk on top of snow, actually?
5.3 The Way Is Cleared For Their Escape
Summary: The company waits as Boromir and Aragorn disappear down the slope, swimming their way through breast-high snow. Maybe an hour later, Legolas reappears and the men labor back up to the company. The Elf cheerily announces that a giant drift of snow almost defeated Boromir and Aragorn, but they beat their way through after he told them the snow diminished dramatically on the other side. Gimli suggests that the almost impassable wall of snow is proof of his theory that Caradhras itself willed the storm for their demise. Boromir takes that lightly, pointing out that he and Aragorn, being “doughty Men”, had thwarted the evil designs of Caradhras, although ‘lesser men with spades might have served you better’.
Descent from Caradhras, by Donato Giancola
H. Where did Legolas go, and why?
I. Why does Legolas seem to regard the entire expedition as a kind of joke?
Legolas refers to the snowfall on the other side of the drift as “no more than a white coverlet to cool a hobbit’s toes”. This reminds me of a debate we had in some past discussion; it seems like a non-starter, until you begin looking for textual evidence for either side of the proposition:
J. Are the hobbits wearing boots at this point in the journey?
Gimli says the drift proves that “’It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.’”
K. Why does he name Elves and Dwarves, rather than, say, ‘those who go on two legs’?
A 12-foot high drift just above the snow line seems unlikely; at least it is presented as being so.
L. Should we take seriously Gimli’s conviction that Caradhras is a self-willed agent of evil?
M. Why is Boromir in such good humor that he actually cracks a joke?
5.4 The Men Carry The Halflings To Safety
Summary: The hobbits are still intimidated by the depths of the snow, but Boromir volunteers himself and Aragorn to carry the halflings. The man barrels through with Pippin on piggyback, Aragorn following with Merry, and they see the great drift, over twelve feet high, with the narrow path beaten up and across it. The next shuttle brings down Frodo and Sam, while Gandalf leads Bill the Pony with Gimli riding. Just as the company assembles below the drift, a rock and snowslide collapses across the way, and the path up the slope toward the pass is completely blocked again.
Snow on Caradhras, by Catherine Chmiel
N. What is the nature of the bond that forms between Pippin and Boromir, starting here?
O. Why does Gimli ride Bill the Pony?
Gandalf in The Hobbit is described, and drawn by Tolkien, as being quite short. Yet here he walks through the snow without the assistance the other ‘short people’ need.
P. How tall is Gandalf?
Q. Would rocks really be part of the snow slide/avalanche in these conditions?
5.5 Defeated By Caradhras
Summary: Shocked by the snowslide, Gimli yells at the mountain to cut it out, they’re leaving already. Seemingly, we are told, the mountain is indeed “satisfied” that it has repelled the “invaders”; the weather begins to break and clear, and as Legolas said, the snowfall was much lighter beyond the drift and by the time they reach the point where the snow first started the night before, the path is almost clear. It is late morning as they look down into the lowlands where they had started their climb. They see black specks, which they realize are the black birds again. Gandalf says there’s no help for it, they have no choice but to go back down the mountain. This chapter concludes, “they turned their backs on the Redhorn Gate, and stumbled wearily down the slope. Caradhras had defeated them.”
Caradhras, by Paul Gregory
When they see the birds below them in the distance, Gandalf says that “whether they are good or evil, or have nothing to do with us at all” he knows they must now travel by daylight to get down off the mountain by nightfall, rather than hide by day as they had done before.
R. What does he mean by apparently conceding that the birds could be “good”?
Well, that wraps up this discussion, and again I apologize for going late into the following week. However, I do want to bring up a last few general questions regarding this chapter.
I believe it was only in the Romantic era that Europeans began to seek out high mountains to climb for adventure and pleasure; medieval folk tended to avoid such places as being both difficult and useless. British alpinism was at its peak in the early 20th century, with heroic climbs the subject of many a book and magazine article, and Tolkien, of course, famously hiked in the Alps and wrote his impressions of, and love for, mountain scenery into both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
S. How “modern” is Tolkien being when he introduces into his heroic quest an adventure set on a high mountain pass?
Likewise, Caradhras is apparently the “villain” of the piece. OK, an inanimate mountain tries to kill those heroes who dare to climb it.
T. Is that conception original to Tolkien, in heroic or fantasy literature?
This chapter is where the Fellowship of the Ring is formed, and this adventure on the mountain is the first time they have suffered and survived together.
U. What do we learn about the Fellowship, as a group, in this chapter?
This is odd and out of scope a bit, but if I may. I remember with surprise reading The History of the Lord of the Rings (HoME vols. 6-9) and finding that this was the point where Tolkien finally abandoned the character of Trotter, the mysterious and intrepid hobbit ranger whom Frodo encountered at Bree and who guided the four Shire hobbits thence to Rivendell. In the first draft account of the blizzard, Trotter is just as incapacitated as the other hobbits, and has to be carted back down the slope on piggyback by Boromir. Tolkien realized that a hobbit simply couldn’t carry out the role of adventurous guide in all the ways that the story was likely to demand, and presto! Trotter the hobbit became Trotter the Man. (Later his name was changed to Strider; and even later Strider turned out to be Aragorn, King of Men.)
V. Does this explain why Aragorn takes such a back seat to Boromir, in both dialogue and action, in the mountain-storm part of this chapter?
Thanks for everyone’s participation and thoughts, and thanks especially for the sufferance of CuriousG at my lingering on into his discussion week!
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Modtheow
Lorien
Apr 28 2015, 2:01am
Post #2 of 17
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When heads are at a loss bodies must serve” says Boromir, quoting a Gondorian epigram.
D. What does the saying tell us about Gondor, and about Boromir?
I think it shows an anti-intellectual bent. Boromir is not saying this humbly but proudly. This may explain why the brawn of Boromir is more highly valued in Gondor, or at least by his father, than the brains of Faramir, who would gladly be a wizard's pupil.
L. Should we take seriously Gimli’s conviction that Caradhras is a self-willed agent of evil?
Why not? Tolkien's landscapes usually seem to be active and alive. If a tree like Old Man Willow can be a self-willed agent of evil, why not a mountain?
By the way, I love all the pictures you've included. The pics of the storm and reading this chapter reminded me of our record-breaking snowfall this year in Nova Scotia, when we actually did have 12-foot high snowbanks and some people had to plow through waist-high drifts just to get out of their houses. Some people started using the hashtag "Winter I Surrender" on Twitter, so I can easily believe that the blizzard on Caradhras would seem like an evil force sent to overcome even the strongest warrior.
R. What does he mean by apparently conceding that the birds could be “good”?
I think it contributes to the sense of doubt in the whole chapter. We don't know anything for certain; even Gandalf doesn't know.
S. How “modern” is Tolkien being when he introduces into his heroic quest an adventure set on a high mountain pass?
The medieval French poem The Song of Roland features a battle in a mountain pass in the Pyrenees. No snowstorms, though.
But it does remind me that the hero Roland has a great battle horn, like Boromir. Roland, though, refuses to blow the horn to summon aid in the battle until it is too late, and he dies by bursting a vein in his head when he finally uses the thing. Boromir blows his horn so everyone can hear it as the travellers set out on their "secret" mission.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 28 2015, 11:45am
Post #3 of 17
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A. Frodo is said to be sleepy, but did the entire company stay awake throughout the night?
Frodo seems to be drifting towards death of hypothermia. He really needs saving.
I guess the others dozed off occasionally, but couldn't really sleep.
B. Even without the incident of the blizzard, was the company adequately equipped to cross an alpine pass in January?
It doesn't seem so. Not at all.
Which might hint at a conspiracy theory...
C. What is your feeling about how he conducts himself here?
I actually liked Legolas a lot on first readings, and then lost much of my enthusiasm for him.
At this stage he seems like a mildly uninterested observer.
But it is always fun to see someone tweaking Gandalf's nose!
D. What does the saying tell us about Gondor, and about Boromir?
I don't think they indicate that the heads and bodies belong to different persons; just than they complement each other. And yes, there are moments in time in which mere intellect is useless.
It is possible that Boromir resents how he seems to be relegated to a mere strong man to carry the weight. Especially after it was him (as you pointed out) who saved the fellowship with his advice.
E. How does Boromir see Aragorn?
In the Council, he asked whether he had inherited a heirloom only, or the sinews of the kings of men.
This is the first challange.
F. What is Aragorn’s attitude towards Boromir at this point?
Aragorn is naturally very upset by now by the failure of his proposed path; juxtapose that with Boromir being then one who suggests a way to save the fellowship (for the second time!), and the natural conclusion is that he feels rather subdued at this point.
But there is a long way to go yet.
G. How does Legolas walk on top of snow, actually?
Like a ballerina.
H. Where did Legolas go, and why?
I guess to scout ahead.
And Gandalf is so down, than he doesn't even caution him against watching spies.
I. Why does Legolas seem to regard the entire expedition as a kind of joke?
He was trained as a clown carer.
Or else he is just so superior to his comrades that he is genuinely amused by their ineptitude.
J. Are the hobbits wearing boots at this point in the journey?
If they aren't, they should.
Although I always assumed they didn't.
K. Why does he name Elves and Dwarves, rather than, say, ‘those who go on two legs’?
Eregion and Moria.
Gimli is overwhelmed by his people's history.
L. Should we take seriously Gimli’s conviction that Caradhras is a self-willed agent of evil?
I wonder if this is a long-running tradition among Durin's folk.
And nobody has mentioned yet the Balrog, which Beren IV suggested was the source of the attack!
M. Why is Boromir in such good humor that he actually cracks a joke?
Adernaline after the exertion; exhiliration with success.
Or else, miruvor-induced euphoria... no, I'm sticking with the previous answer.
N. What is the nature of the bond that forms between Pippin and Boromir, starting here?
Caring on one side, admiration on the other.
And it is noteworthy that Pippin has a similar realtionship with Gandalf.
O. Why does Gimli ride Bill the Pony?
Because Henry the Horse was away, dancing at Mr. Kite's show.
Or else the poor Bill really isn't carrying enough.
P. How tall is Gandalf?
I suppose a bit shorter than Legolas, and possibly just as light as him.
But even Gimli should be able to walk without much assistance, I should think.
Q. Would rocks really be part of the snow slide/avalanche in these conditions?
Wouldn't they? I assumed it is a realistic description of the snow carrying down rocks with it.
(I had a similar picture of the ending of Ibsen's Brand and When we Dead Awaken).
But perhaps I was wrong?
R. What does he mean by apparently conceding that the birds could be “good”?
He doesn't care anymore.
S. How “modern” is Tolkien being when he introduces into his heroic quest an adventure set on a high mountain pass?
Don't the Norse sagas have anything similar?
T. Is that conception original to Tolkien, in heroic or fantasy literature?
I don't know enough. But aren't volcanoes supposed to embody the spirit of the mountain? Or are you asking specifically about snowstorms?
U. What do we learn about the Fellowship, as a group, in this chapter?
The seem to work together pretty well.
V. Does this explain why Aragorn takes such a back seat to Boromir, in both dialogue and action, in the mountain-storm part of this chapter?
I don't think so. I don't remember, but my impression is that not much of the Trotter-storyline (which got as far as Balin's tomb) survived into this chapter.
Thank you, squire, for a typically thorough reading of this chapter!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 28 2015, 4:56pm
Post #4 of 17
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I think a lot depends on how you read that exchange between Gandalf an Legolas (re whether Gandalf could burn them a path out of the snow drifts). If Gandalf is clearly having a sense of humour failure, then tweaking the party further is not really all that clever of Legolas. Under other circumstances, making light of difficulties can be just the thing:
I was walking with five classmates, two astronauts, and two instructors. We were tired. We were dirty. We were in search of water and a campsite. We had just rapelled down a slot canyon and were now trudging along with heavy packs. Storm clouds approached and a few drops of rain started to hit my arm wiping away a thick layer of canyon dust. As I walked next to Rick Rochelle, I muttered: “Ah @#%$, just what we need now. Rain.” Without missing a beat, Rick turned to me and said “This rain feels AMAZING after a long hike, I love it!” He was dead on right. It did feel amazing. And I went from unhappy to loving it in one sentence. Reid Weisman, Astronaut, recalling a leadershp training exercise http://nols.blogs.com/...ionary-behavior.html
Expedition behaviour is set of ways to behave that make it easier to get on with a bunch of people you've been thrown together with in a challenging situation
Suddenly, people must make their place in a new society based upon what they can actually do and what they really are.”
Paul Petzoldt in his 1974 The Wilderness Handbook.
Looking at a sumary of those skills http://www.nols.edu/...ition_behavior.shtml , I think Boromir's currently doing it best. The man's a pro.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 28 2015, 5:31pm
Post #5 of 17
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He's the prince of Gondor, a leader of men and a hardy fighter in an unending guerilla war. But as I began to feel as I explored this part of the chapter, Aragorn is the dog that isn't barking in the night. By every thing we know about him through reading LotR to the end, etc., Strider in this little adventure should be just as much a pro at 'expedition behaviour' (great find by you!) as Boromir. In fact he should be more so because he's been exposed to a far more diverse range of commands and alliances among the races of Middle-earth; Boromir is used to the command of Men of Gondor in a regular military structure, and one might wonder whether he's a bit at sea trying to figure out what to say to inspire an Elf, a Dwarf, halflings, and a wizard.
squire online:
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 28 2015, 8:00pm
Post #6 of 17
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I'd never noticed that: the absent Aragorn
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...especially given that in the next chapter, he'll thank Gandalf for following his lead without complaining, and resolve to return that favour.
I think your idea elsewhere in this thread (that Trotter is transforming into Strider) might be the explanation.
...and now I'm thinking of those TV shows my kids used to love (Transformers, Power Rangers, Digimon, Sailor Moon etc.) where it was clearly Not Done to interrupt a character when they are transforming.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 29 2015, 9:32pm
Post #7 of 17
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Wouldn't FOTR make a great bergfilme?
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A. Frodo is said to be sleepy, but did the entire company stay awake throughout the night?
One can imagine The-Three-Hunters-To-Be did, and if Aragorn did then Boromir did too just because, and who can tell if Gandalf is ever asleep, so I’ll go with just the hobbits and probably Bill.
B. Even without the incident of the blizzard, was the company adequately equipped to cross an alpine pass in January?
To say they lacked the essentials would be putting it mildly. One might suspect the secret plan of the Wise was to freeze the Ring deep inside a glacier on top of Caradhras.
I remember disliking Legolas intently when I first read this chapter, and I didn’t like him much better until quite a lot later in the story.
C. What is your feeling about how he conducts himself here?
Empathy with other races definitely isn’t an Elvish strong suit.
“When heads are at a loss bodies must serve” says Boromir, quoting a Gondorian epigram.
D. What does the saying tell us about Gondor,…
No wonder they’re losing the war of attrition.
…and about Boromir?
He’s not the brains of the family. Hopefully.
E. How does Boromir see Aragorn?
As an ally against the folly of the wizard.
F. What is Aragorn’s attitude towards Boromir at this point?
As someone who has stepped up and, while not exactly taking charge, is providing much needed impetus.
G. How does Legolas walk on top of snow, actually?
Sky-hook into the spirit world.
H. Where did Legolas go, and why?
Scouting. If Boromir is right about the extent of the snow they’re making the right decision. If he’s wrong and the drifts are more extensive, they may want to save their strength and rethink things.
I. Why does Legolas seem to regard the entire expedition as a kind of joke?
Typical Elvish manic-depression. At least he’s not tra-lal-lally-ing. Plus I get the impression he’s still a bit young and immature. For an Elf. (And Elves are not Vulcans!!)
J. Are the hobbits wearing boots at this point in the journey?
That would be rather Stoorish, and one would think the two scions of the Shire, as well as the provincial Sam, would be horrified at the suggestion.
Gimli says the drift proves that “’It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.’”
K. Why does he name Elves and Dwarves, rather than, say, ‘those who go on two legs’?
Apparently there was indeed a very good reason Elves used Moria instead of the pass to travel between Lorien and Hollin. And a reason why Caradhras might be angry at the Dwarves for permitting it.
A 12-foot high drift just above the snow line seems unlikely; at least it is presented as being so.
L. Should we take seriously Gimli’s conviction that Caradhras is a self-willed agent of evil?
Or at least against Dwarves and Elves. And I don’t see any Orcs or Wargs using the pass either.
M. Why is Boromir in such good humor that he actually cracks a joke?
He prefers straight-up red-blooded adventuring to all the previous sneaking around.
N. What is the nature of the bond that forms between Pippin and Boromir, starting here?
There’s a special bond between rescuer and rescued. I wonder if Pippin plants a tree for Boromir in the Shire?
O. Why does Gimli ride Bill the Pony?
In this icy terrain Bill’s footing is difficult, and according to some a person riding on top of baggage can help a beast of burden keep its footing by continually adjusting his weight to keep the beast’s center of gravity stable. Dunno if it’s true, or just an excuse to avoid walking.
Gandalf in The Hobbit is described, and drawn by Tolkien, as being quite short. Yet here he walks through the snow without the assistance the other ‘short people’ need.
P. How tall is Gandalf?
As tall as he needs to be.
‘Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.' He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room.
-The Long Expected Party
Q. Would rocks really be part of the snow slide/avalanche in these conditions?
Very few mountains in the Alps are changing as rapidly as the Matterhorn. The fact is unmistakable if the mountaineer rests awhile on a fine summer's morning amongst the fantastic pinnacles which stand on the weather-shattered eastern ridge. At sunrise a great calm wraps the vast cliffs in a peaceful embrace. But gradually the welcome warmth of the sun's rays penetrates everywhere, and strange noises, and movements almost as of life, begin to disturb the solitudes. There is a small grating sound somewhat like the gnawing of a mouse in a deserted room, the ice which holds a small stone in situ has lost its hold, and the liberated fragment gently rolls over and downwards to disappear from sight.
A few seconds later harsh sounds rise from below, the small stone has upset others of similar calibre, and these in turn have dislodged some larger fragments. It is an avalanche in embryo. Almost before there is time to realise the fact, a thunderous roar echoes upwards and across the cliff! A peep over the edge will show that the lower slopes are practically alive with flying fragments. Great boulders are hurled in high trajectory; the very mountain trembles. Crash! Bang! Ever downward flies the chaotic mass, until with a dull roar it plunges into the vast snow slopes. With the mightiness of the splash the snow is flung high up into mid-air, to descend again like the frothy foam of excentric waterfalls, and the avalanche, now in full and mad career, casts itself fiercely down on the glacier. Then as the slope gradually lessens the clamour grows feebler and eventually subsides, a mere rumbling in the bowels of the glacier.
Almost all day and every day the same process is in action. The noise and rattle of falling stones is incessant. Hundreds, and at times thousands, of tons of rock must come away every day during fine weather, and this fact of yielding "flake by flake and band by band to the continual process of decay" makes most mountaineers wonder what the aspect of the Matterhorn will be a few hundred years hence.
-George D. Abraham, The Complete Mountaineer (1907)
R. What does he mean by apparently conceding that the birds could be “good”?
Radagast could be looking for them. But then, the Brown wasn’t invited to the Council nor privy to the Ringquest, so ignore them.
S. How “modern” is Tolkien being when he introduces into his heroic quest an adventure set on a high mountain pass?
The “mountain film” is a cinematic genre first appearing in 1903. During the 1920s and 1930s, the “bergfilme” become just as successful and culturally defining in Germany as the western was in America. One of the biggest stars of the German bergfilme was actress, writer, and director Leni Riefenstahl, whose success and stardom in bergfilmes led her to making the infamous yet extremely cinematically influential “Triumph of the Will” (1935).
Irwin Allen’s mountain film “Climbing the Matterhorn (1947) won the 1948 Academy Award for Best Short Subject. Disney’s mountain film “Third Man on the Mountain” (1959) inspired Disneyland’s Matterhorn Bobsleds ride. Disney currently has another Matterhorn movie in development.
Today there are at least a couple of dozen yearly “mountain film” film festivals all over the world and even a museum.
Likewise, Caradhras is apparently the “villain” of the piece. OK, an inanimate mountain tries to kill those heroes who dare to climb it.
T. Is that conception original to Tolkien, in heroic or fantasy literature?
In Korean folklore just about every mountain has a malevolent feminine spirit. The name of Mount Yamantau in the Urals translates as “evil mountain” and is the site of Russia’s version of Area 51. In American folklore, people die in mysterious rockfalls, get lost and die of thirst within yards of waterholes, or just vanish without a trace climbing the Superstition Mountains looking for the Lost Dutchman’s Mine. (It’s the mine that’s lost, not the Dutchman, though he *is* dead.)
For myself the inspiration for the Redhorn would seem to be the Matterhorn. It was the last of the Alpine peaks climbed during the so-called “Golden Age of Alpinism” (1854-1865). Some say it was the last because it inspired a certain superstitious dread:
Even to this day those who live in the tiny chalets which dot the flower-clad slopes at its foot hold strange superstitions regarding it. Their religion offers some comfort; but now and again the "terrible mountain," as some of these natives have called it, flings some of their brethren into eternity, or sends down an avalanche of destruction on themselves and their lone dwellings.
-ibid
This chapter is where the Fellowship of the Ring is formed, and this adventure on the mountain is the first time they have suffered and survived together.
U. What do we learn about the Fellowship, as a group, in this chapter?
They seem to work well together, though obviously some rough edges should be smoothed out if they’re going to be together long.
Bergfilmes not only focus on mountaineering and the struggle against nature, but show how the experience changes the protagonists..
The hobbits have discovered that Big Folk, even Wizards, aren’t always strong enough to overcome the forces of nature. Unlike the Old Forest, there was no Bombadil help them proceed, but instead they had to turn back.
Boromir and Aragorn may be settling at least into a mutual respect.
Legolas is assuming his role as a goofball. (Elves aren’t Vulcans!)
Gimli is being Dwarfy.
Gandalf obviously feels exposed and vulnerable, especially tied down to a group he can’t dare wander away from like he did Bilbo’s Company.
V. Does this explain why Aragorn takes such a back seat to Boromir, in both dialogue and action, in the mountain-storm part of this chapter?
It also explains the earlier upstaging of Strider by Glorfindel, and even earlier some of Strider’s bizarre behavior in The Prancing Pony.
Thanks for everyone’s participation and thoughts, and thanks especially for the sufferance of CuriousG at my lingering on into his discussion week!
Thank you for leading!
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Meneldor
Valinor
Apr 30 2015, 1:20am
Post #8 of 17
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Speaking of evil and mountains...
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L. Should we take seriously Gimli’s conviction that Caradhras is a self-willed agent of evil?
Do any of you Tolkien scholars know if the professor ever saw Disney's Fantasia? You know whereof I speak.
For that matter, did he listen to Mussorgsky?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 30 2015, 6:26am
Post #9 of 17
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The bond between Pippin and Boromir
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Are they quite similar in some way? They are the two characters Gandalf snap at.
They both seem to be active, fidgety people: Boromir drops a stone into the Watcher's lake; Pippin drops a stone down the well.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 30 2015, 8:58am
Post #10 of 17
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Gandalf does find a way to leave the company in the next chapter.
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Apr 30 2015, 8:59am)
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Apr 30 2015, 12:57pm
Post #11 of 17
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Caradhras had defeated them. Or had it?
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There is no mention of tents, gloves, snowshoes, or a means to melt ice for drinking water. And Gandalf and Aragorn, clearly, expected to spend several nights at high altitude without a fire.
B. Even without the incident of the blizzard, was the company adequately equipped to cross an alpine pass in January?
Well, if the von Trapp children could do it... 
Or perhaps the idea was to send the smarty-pants Elf back down for supplies if things got rougher than planned?
I remember disliking Legolas intently when I first read this chapter, and I didn’t like him much better until quite a lot later in the story.
C. What is your feeling about how he conducts himself here?
I loved Legolas as a child and was fascinated that he could do this extremely cool stuff...nowadays, he just seems like a showoff jerk. 
“When heads are at a loss bodies must serve” says Boromir, quoting a Gondorian epigram.
D. What does the saying tell us about Gondor, and about Boromir?
It says it's not a good idea to sign up as a redshirt in the Gondorian army.
Boromir points out that the problem is solvable if, as he hopes, they are stranded by only a furlong (660 feet) of truly heavy snow, and Aragorn responds in a manly way by suggesting that he and Boromir work as a team to clear the path. Remember that we last saw the two interact at the Council 11 weeks earlier; that they’ve been traveling together for two weeks now; that Boromir had to suggest the need for firewood; and that he had seen Aragorn and Gandalf decide to take the pass, with no requests for advice from any of the others. Given all that:
E. How does Boromir see Aragorn?
F. What is Aragorn’s attitude towards Boromir at this point?
I personally think Boromir is feeling cheered that he has gained a moral advantage over his companions: He hasn't made any decisions that turned out very badly; he saved everyone's life with the wood supply; now the supposed king is asking him to work with him, and given him a task that is not only well within his powers but that he can shine at. I might hum a little tune, myself.
G. How does Legolas walk on top of snow, actually?
First, he puts an arrow through a couple of small woodland creatures, then he fastens one to each foot to use it as a stilt, and then...oh, you mean the book? Hollow bones, or something. 
H. Where did Legolas go, and why?
To scout ahead.
I. Why does Legolas seem to regard the entire expedition as a kind of joke?
Mortals are hilarious in their incompetence, apparently.
J. Are the hobbits wearing boots at this point in the journey?
No, the hair on their feet keeps them from getting frostbite. 
A 12-foot high drift just above the snow line seems unlikely; at least it is presented as being so.
L. Should we take seriously Gimli’s conviction that Caradhras is a self-willed agent of evil?
Why not?
M. Why is Boromir in such good humor that he actually cracks a joke?
See above comment on gaining the moral advantage.
N. What is the nature of the bond that forms between Pippin and Boromir, starting here?
It's a long-lasting one, that carries Pip into Gondor and into service there in a myriad of ways.
O. Why does Gimli ride Bill the Pony?
Because he's short too. Not to worry, though--he's carrying everything Bill was carrying before.
Gandalf in The Hobbit is described, and drawn by Tolkien, as being quite short. Yet here he walks through the snow without the assistance the other ‘short people’ need.
P. How tall is Gandalf?
He's wizard! He does he chooses. I wouldn't want to be the snowdrift that meddles in his affairs.
Q. Would rocks really be part of the snow slide/avalanche in these conditions?
Yes.
When they see the birds below them in the distance, Gandalf says that “whether they are good or evil, or have nothing to do with us at all” he knows they must now travel by daylight to get down off the mountain by nightfall, rather than hide by day as they had done before.
R. What does he mean by apparently conceding that the birds could be “good”?
Gandalf doesn't know and he doesn't care at this point.
I believe it was only in the Romantic era that Europeans began to seek out high mountains to climb for adventure and pleasure; medieval folk tended to avoid such places as being both difficult and useless. British alpinism was at its peak in the early 20th century, with heroic climbs the subject of many a book and magazine article, and Tolkien, of course, famously hiked in the Alps and wrote his impressions of, and love for, mountain scenery into both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
S. How “modern” is Tolkien being when he introduces into his heroic quest an adventure set on a high mountain pass?
It's not as though the company is seeking a walking holiday in the romantic mountains. They're just trying to cross them, as people have been trying to do for thousands of years.
Likewise, Caradhras is apparently the “villain” of the piece. OK, an inanimate mountain tries to kill those heroes who dare to climb it.
T. Is that conception original to Tolkien, in heroic or fantasy literature?
Certainly not original to Tolkien or fantasy. Many peoples, especially those who live near mountains, have tales and folklore about the mysteries of those mountains. It's a staple of Greek mythology, for example.
This chapter is where the Fellowship of the Ring is formed, and this adventure on the mountain is the first time they have suffered and survived together.
U. What do we learn about the Fellowship, as a group, in this chapter?
I'm impressed that no one blames anyone else. They nearly died, and yet there is no word of blame. That's why I believe that although Caradhras has defeated them physically, it actually forges them into a stronger fellowship.
V. Does this explain why Aragorn takes such a back seat to Boromir, in both dialogue and action, in the mountain-storm part of this chapter?
My answer is similar to the one I gave for Boromir, except that Aragorn is subdued by the knowledge that his leadership has not been all that stellar, and recognizes that perhaps the scope of his experience has not prepared him for the motley crew he's leading.
Thanks for everyone’s participation and thoughts, and thanks especially for the sufferance of CuriousG at my lingering on into his discussion week!
Thank you, squire! 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Apr 30 2015, 1:28pm
Post #13 of 17
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Thanks for the welcoming welcome
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Even without the incident of the blizzard, was the company adequately equipped to cross an alpine pass in January?
They were not expecting snow at the elevation of the pass. They thought it would be clear all winter. But they were caught on the hop.
What is your feeling about how he conducts himself here?
I’m jealous, and at the same time irritated. Elves are always the cool kids.
He is helping, though.
What does the saying tell us about Gondor, and about Boromir?
He’s already shown he’s smart with the firewood. Now he’s showing another quality.
What is Aragorn’s attitude towards Boromir at this point?
Aragorn does not expect to be a leader in all things. He’s humble. That’s why he can become a truly great leader.
Why does he name Elves and Dwarves, rather than, say, ‘those who go on two legs’?
His ideas about Caradhras are based on history. Neither men nor hobbits figured in. He names Elves before Dwarves. Why? Wouldn't he think about Dwarves first, or are the Elves more hated?
Should we take seriously Gimli’s conviction that Caradhras is a self-willed agent of evil?
There’s been a discussion about the possibility that the arm of the Dark Lord had grown long. Maybe this is a nasty partnership.
Why is Boromir in such good humor that he actually cracks a joke?
He’s an experienced fighter and leader. He’s relieving tension.
What is the nature of the bond that forms between Pippin and Boromir, starting here? Pippin is the youngest member of the company. He’s impressed with Boromir. And who doesn’t like being a hero?
Why does Gimli ride Bill the Pony?
He’s in over his head.
How tall is Gandalf?
I think Gandalf has grown in stature, regardless of height, since the Hobbit.
How “modern” is Tolkien being when he introduces into his heroic quest an adventure set on a high mountain pass?
Whenever I read this chapter, I remember Hannibal and his elephants. Of course I’m often thinking about elephants.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 30 2015, 1:39pm
Post #14 of 17
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BTW, re Hannibal and the Alps:
Livy informs us that Hannibal split the huge Alpine rocks with vinegar to break a path for the elephants. Vinegar was a high explosive in 218 B.C., but not before or since.
-Will Cuppy, The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Apr 30 2015, 2:54pm
Post #15 of 17
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I thought he used raisin wine to get them that high!
Like Gandalf used miruvor.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 30 2015, 4:27pm
Post #17 of 17
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Why is Boromir in such good humor that he actually cracks a joke?
[