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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What do you make of the SIZE of the Armies?
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Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 11:09am

Post #1 of 35 (3556 views)
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What do you make of the SIZE of the Armies? Can't Post

When Azog sends his spawn?.. Bolg to Gundabad
we get a Huge shot of The Moria Orc Army.

Similar to the Isengard army headed to Helm's Deep
in TTT.

Well, if we are to believe Aragorn that, THAT was
10,000 @ least...
THEN.. Azog had pretty much emptied Moria, & Armored them
from Sunlight..that would have.BURNed them.

According to the Book, Thranduil brought 700 Archers.
Which looked about right in the Movie.

Hard to tell exactly how many were brought from Mount Gundabad
but a guess? would be about another 5,000..

Dain's Army could have been about 800.
{But it has been leaked that there might be a Second Iron Hills Army in the EE}

The BATS, maybe about 200.?

The Eagles about maybe 30.?

The Men & Women of Laketown, about 200 total
on the Battle field & Hiding in the City of Dale.

Well, once the Battle commences it seems the Good Guys
likely kill @least 10 orcs, EACH often.

IS there anything in the "Chronicles" Books that list the Totals ?

A secong question : Once the Battle is won,
were the Entire ORC armies Killed, or did a percentage flee back to where they Came?

IT might be logical that even after the Day-Long Battle was over..
The Eagles continued to wipe OUT, any fleeing into the Hills.

60 years later, only puny, Strange BUG-Eyed goblins pursued the "Nine Walkers' in Moria.

Would love to know, if anyone here knows
an accurate TOTAL?

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"

(This post was edited by Bombadil on Apr 26 2015, 11:12am)


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 11:49am

Post #2 of 35 (3491 views)
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Grrr 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think some orcs survived, it feels like some orcs must have survived. When we see the gundbad army last the eagles attack and kill nearby all in the first line but you see that some orcs survied from the first line and beorn attack the next line so i think they who dont get killed in the lines retreats. The orcs the attack the dwarfs looks to be pretty crushed but i think some survive and they who fight in the city of dale looks to be crushed so idk if someone survive.

Its feel that it is more than 200 lakemens its feels like its more 200 that die.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2015, 12:26pm

Post #3 of 35 (3470 views)
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Just a small note [In reply to] Can't Post

But the book doesn't say anything about how many archers Thranduil brought. Not sure where the 700 comes from.


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 12:38pm

Post #4 of 35 (3462 views)
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and it isn´t only archers in the film many spearmen and swordmens. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 12:59pm

Post #5 of 35 (3453 views)
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In Looking @ "The Clouds Burst" Chapter... [In reply to] Can't Post

pg. 283 - 4
".. the Elves were the first to Charge...
behind their Arrows, a 1000 of their Spearmen lept down
@ charged.."

The Number 700 is not mentioned in the Book,
But somewhere?
.. Bomby read that number....
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 1:07pm

Post #6 of 35 (3446 views)
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Copy from lotr wiki [In reply to] Can't Post

The Battle of the Five Armies
Conflict: The Treasure of the Lonely Mountain and The possible return of the Kingdom of Erebor
Date: October 10, 2941
Place: Lonely Mountain
Dale (Film Only)
Outcome: Pyrrhic Victory for alliance of Dwarves, Elves, and Men
Combatants
Lonely Mountain
Iron Hills
Mirkwood
Lake-town
Dale
Misty Mountains Misty Mountains
Dol Guldur (Film Only)
Mount Gundabad
Mordor
Trollshaws
Goblin-town
Commanders
Gandalf
Thorin II Oakenshield†
Thranduil
Bard the Bowman
Dain II Ironfoot
Beorn
Gwaihir Azog† (Film Only)
Bolg†
Strength
500 Dwarves of the Iron Hills[1] (including the 13 Dwarves of Thorin and Company of the Lonely Mountain)
200 Lakemen from Lake-town
1000-1500 Elves of Mirkwood
100 Great Eagles "Innumberable" Goblins and Wargs[2]
Casualties
Very heavy: Deaths of Thorin, FIli, and Kili; citizens of Lake-town and Mirkwood Very Heavy: Death of Bolg


If it was 1000 spearmens maybe 500 bowmens?


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 1:12pm

Post #7 of 35 (3442 views)
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If there was 200 lakemen then they must have lost few and even if all survived... [In reply to] Can't Post

is there very few to be king over a land with 200 pepoles, is there really only 200?


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 1:15pm

Post #8 of 35 (3437 views)
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A Line form the Movie..." A couple of hundred upset Laketown survivors.."// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 1:19pm

Post #9 of 35 (3437 views)
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How many of the lakemens died? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 1:45pm

Post #10 of 35 (3426 views)
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Copy from lotr wiki Strength (film) [In reply to] Can't Post

Strength
Along with a formidable legion of Gundabad Orcs, and Bats, the film added the appearance of Were-Worms and Trolls and Ogres. As in the film the entire forces are changed, the Elves and the Lake-men are more numerous that in the book, there is no appearance of the Wargs during the battle. Additional combatants in the battle are Legolas, Tauriel, Radagast, Feren, and Percy.
Estimated strength of the Dwarves, Elves, and Men:

3000-4000 Dwarves of the Iron Hills (including the 13 Dwarves of
Thorin and Company of the Lonely Mountain)
900-2000 Lake-town Militia
5000-8000 Elves of Mirkwood
80-100 Great Eagles
Estimated strength of Azog's army:
10,000-16,000 Guldur Orcs from Dol Guldur
5,000-8,000 Gundabad Orcs from Mount Gundabad (including 20-40 Orc Berserkers)
Nearly 200 Goblin Mercenaries
100 Wargs
About 25 Trolls
At least a dozen Ogres
Unknown number of orc war beasts
Numerous Bats


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 1:47pm

Post #11 of 35 (3422 views)
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Now i and you have answears on our questions ! i think! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bofur01
Lorien


Apr 26 2015, 2:17pm

Post #12 of 35 (3403 views)
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WETA Digital said the Orc army was 30000 strong. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 2:20pm

Post #13 of 35 (3401 views)
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Bom will go with WETA over WIKI..// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 26 2015, 3:09pm

Post #14 of 35 (3383 views)
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Many more combatants in the movie than in the book. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
WETA Digital said the Orc army was 30000 strong.

Which one? Azog's Orcs from Dol Guldur? Or Bolg's Gundabad Orcs? There must have been many more in total.

The Battle of Five Armies (Book; estimates from The Atlas of Middle-earth):
- Dwarves: 500+
- Wood-elves: 1000+ spearmen; unspecified number of archers.
- Men: 200 (rough estimate based on the size of Lake-town).
- Orcs and Wargs: A vast host--at least several thousand.
- Plus Eagles, bats, a Wizard, a Shape-changer and one hobbit.

The Battle of Five Armies (Film)

- Dwarves: 500 to 1000?
- Wood-elves: 2000 or more.
- Men: 200? Jackson's Esgaroth was several times larger than how Tolkien portrayed the town, but the survivors who couldn't fight still needed to be cared for and protected.
- Eagles: ?
- Gandalf (and Radagast)
- Beorn
- Bilbo
- Dol Guldur Orcs: Several thousand.
- Gundabad Orcs (plus Goblin Mercenaries): Several thousand.
- Wargs, Bats, Trolls and Ogres: Many thousands in total.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bofur01
Lorien


Apr 26 2015, 3:23pm

Post #15 of 35 (3374 views)
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I can't remember, I think Azog's, but I'm not sure // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 26 2015, 3:31pm

Post #16 of 35 (3372 views)
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Estimate of 200 from the book. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
is there very few to be king over a land with 200 pepoles, is there really only 200?


This only counts the Men who were prepared to follow Bard and not those left behind at Long Lake. Tolkien's Lake-town was pretty small and many perished in Smaug's attack.

Peter Jackson scaled Esgaroth up significantly; it probably had a population of several thousand. In the movie, Bard might have been able to field 500 to 1000 Men. I was being very conservative above.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 26 2015, 3:33pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2015, 3:38pm

Post #17 of 35 (3365 views)
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The trouble with such wikis is that they are simply conjecture. [In reply to] Can't Post

You are quite right to point out the 1,000+ Elven spearmen and the 500 dwarves of Dain's army. The rest is simply speculation.


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 5:42pm

Post #18 of 35 (3338 views)
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Ok but i talk about the film, and i thought the 200 was the others that was in the city of dale to. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2015, 6:02pm

Post #19 of 35 (3325 views)
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In the film - no "200" I don't think. [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo describes an army of elves and "several hundred" angry fisherman. Is that what you are thinking of?


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 6:07pm

Post #20 of 35 (3322 views)
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I dont think 200 [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 26 2015, 8:45pm

Post #21 of 35 (3281 views)
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Hard to estimate. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Ok but i talk about the film, and i thought the 200 was the others that was in the city of dale to.

The wiki estimate of up to 2000 Lake-men does seem unreasonably high.

Jackson's Lake-town was several times larger than the Esgaroth from the book, but it had also fallen on hard times and the population was down. However, if we are counting all of the survivors including women, children, aged and injured then we could be looking at 1000 to 2000 people. Only a few hundred, though, would be men of fighting age and part of Bard's army. If Fonstad's estimate of 200 or so was accurate to the book then I would think that there might have been between 400 and 600 in the movie--maybe on the low side of that range.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 12:25am

Post #22 of 35 (3251 views)
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Maybe? Likely? PJ & Phillipa will give us the answer [In reply to] Can't Post

in the Commentaries, when we get the EE.

Thanks for your Research O-s..ONCE again!

....Karen's Book
does a GREAT job of filling in the Book Details.

Didn't think to look there..in bom's copy.

But Once again, PJ has taken his CUE from Gandalf,

"Every Good story deserves Embellishment"

Which is Kinda a
Mantra for these
Movies...in Bom's
Mind.

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Konrad S
Lorien

Apr 27 2015, 4:59am

Post #23 of 35 (3230 views)
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Okay 1000-2000 pepoles and 200 - 400 Soldiers [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 27 2015, 3:14pm

Post #24 of 35 (3185 views)
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Yes. The EE might clarify the numbers. [In reply to] Can't Post

If not the extended edition of TH:BotFA then maybe the sixth Hobbit Chronicles book will give a good idea of the size of the armies at the battle.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 30 2015, 2:44am

Post #25 of 35 (3006 views)
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I did a rough screen count estimation before and it was discussed, and if I recall [In reply to] Can't Post

I came up with at least 3,000 (if not 6,000+) elves based on the square formation.

The orc armies were massive based on the cgi figures and rough estimates made it far larger than Helm's Deep, closer to Pelennor Fields.

http://www-images.theonering.org/...1/BotFATrailer50.jpg


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 30 2015, 2:54am)

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