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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 2:32pm
Post #1 of 108
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**The Fellowship of the Ring Discussion, "A Journey in the Dark," part 1
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Welcome to our ongoing quest as we follow the Fellowship through danger and more danger, and did I mention danger? Everyone is welcome to join the discussion. As Maciliel once said, all you need is a book and an opinion.
The Plan: Defeated by Caradhras at the Redhorn Pass, the wily Wizard decides their best hope is to go under the mountain rather than over it, and somehow, the mountains are only sentient and hostile when you cross their outer surface and don't seem to mind you penetrating their interiors. Does anyone understand this?
Is this a democracy? We're treated to a debate among the Fellowship about the wisdom or folly of going through the Mines of Moria, a place so dreadful, even the hobbits have heard of it. While Boromir is the greatest dissenter, even normally-quiet Legolas speaks up and says he doesn't want to go there. They speak of voting--is this a democracy? Notice how Boromir's character has radically changed. Upon leaving Rivendell, he gave a blast of his great horn, announcing to the world that he was leaving. But with the Redhorn Pass and regarding Moria, he keeps voicing caution. How do you account for this? Would he be as cautious if he were in charge, or is his dissatisfaction at being a follower causing him to be critical of authority? Given that Boromir was able to travel successfully on his own to Rivendell from Minas Tirith, why doesn't he leave the Company at this point and head toward the Gap of Rohan on his own? What's keeping him here?
What makes this Middle-earth: a significant piece of character and social development is revealed when Aragorn, though personally opposed to entering Moria, supports Gandalf because the Wizard previously supported his decision to cross the Redhorn Pass and didn't utter a word of criticism after its failure. How often does this happen in real life that a) your opponent on a position voices no blame when you fail, and b) you cites that as a reason for supporting them even though you think they're going to fail, all for the sake of honor? My point being: if you want to escape the crass real world, pick up Tolkien, and you'll find people acting a little bit better than they do in reality, where honor and the common good trump self-interest.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 2:59pm
Post #2 of 108
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The Warg attack: "How the wind howls!"
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Dueling proverbs. Do Aragorn and Boromir ever pass up a chance to compete with each other? I credit Boromir with that snappy saying, "The wolf that one hears is worse than the orcs that one fears," which is pretty memorably, but Aragorn feels compelled to immediately one-up him with, "But where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." (And really, how much fun did Tolkien have inventing these lines?!)
With the wolf attack, we are in for some real magical combat, even if we've had to wait 300 pages for it. The first warg attack is easily discouraged by a single arrow from Legolas, but the second, surprise attack is too much for a lone archer. Gandalf, who kept refusing to even light a simple camp fire on Redhorn Pass during a blizzard, goes full throttle wizard on the wargs:
.....grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
‘Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!’ he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. Wow!!!! Can the Wizard do this kind of thing all the time? Is this what we missed when he fought the Nazgul on Weathertop? Is this Narya doing the heavy lifting, or could Saruman and Radagast have done the same thing? (PS. Does it bother you that Gandalf's spell isn't translated, or are you able to figure out that it probably has something to do with lots and lots of fire? Have you ever tried it at home?)
Are you surprised that Gandalf can do something this dramatically powerful, or did you expect it all along?
The Big People all get mention in the warg attack, but the hobbits only comment on surviving it. Do you think they fought any wolves themselves?
Why could the wolves be killed yet they left no bodies behind? Do they regenerate and come back? Should we assume this is a small, special pack of magical wargs that Sauron sent to get the Ring, or does he have hundreds or thousands of these creatures in Mordor kennels? If the wargs had killed everyone in the Fellowship, how would Sauron get his Ring back: would orcs scavenge the corpses, or would the wargs eat the corpses and swallow the Ring, obliging Sauron to cut them open or wait for their digestion and bowel movements to get back the trifle that he fancies?
The Fellowship has traveled to Caradhras without a single attack on them. What gave them away to the wargs: the spying crebain? Gandalf lighting a fire on Caradhras? Or were the wargs just posted as guards near Moria and picked up their scent?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 3:26pm
Post #3 of 108
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The Hollin Gate: a look at the Second Age vs the Third Age
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It's remarkable how a simple door can carry so much symbolism, but the Hollin Gate is saturated with it. The Second Age of Middle-earth had its problems (like Sauron), but it was better than the Third.
1. Elves and Dwarves were still friends (at least here), and they co-crafted the doors to display their emblems in unity. There was racial cooperation leading to a synergy of talents, making both societies stronger and better.
2. The world was a safe place. You could write passwords in plain sight. (Like the early days of the Internet, when you could use your real name and use "password" as your password.)
3. People knew more back then: they could make doors like these whose secrets are lost, and Rings of Power too.
4. The environment used to be better: what was once a fair valley now seems like a toxic waste dump; a once-pleasant stream is now trapped in a polluted lake and lost to a trickle.
5. A well-paved highway and flight of stairs are crumbled ruins.
Can you think of other signs of Third Age decadence and fall from Second Age glory?
The Hollin Gate is the only detailed illustration I can think of in the whole trilogy (I'm not counting the runes on Balin's tomb). Why do you think it was so important to Tolkien to have this place illustrated out of so many choices he'd have to make with his publisher?
Gandalf said he wanted Gimli & Legolas to stop fighting and help him open the gate. Were either of them helpful?
Given the icy exchange between Gimli & Legolas about who's to blame for their races' enmity, do you imagine they’ve been avoiding talking to each other during the trip until now?
Frodo and Merry are inquisitive without being annoying, Pippin annoys Gandalf by being inquisitive, and Sam is fixated by loyalty to Bill and Frodo and shows no curiosity at all. What does this say about the hobbits? Would Merry have solved the riddle on his own, as Gandalf hints?
How have the holly trees survived all these centuries given that orcs like to cut down trees for fun?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 3:37pm
Post #4 of 108
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Gandalf’s blessing on Bill: the second blessing after Butterbur’s beer. Does Bree have a special place in the Wizard’s heart? How did Bill survive the wolves? Why did he go to Bree instead of Rivendell?
The Watcher:
1. Why/how does the lake not reflect the sky?
2. Would the Watcher have attacked them anyway, or only because Boromir’s stone in the water woke it up?
3. Is Frodo the only one who sensed the Watcher's evil presence? Did Gandalf or Legolas? Is this due to Frodo's perceptive nature, or the Ring's influence on him, or his post-Weathertop sharpened senses?
4. Was the Watcher a wild animal in search of a meal and hungry, but not evil? Or intelligently evil, and that’s why it attacked Frodo? And how exactly did it know to attack him first: is there a photo of Frodo being circulated among evil creatures in M-earth?
5. Was the book-Watcher more or less scary than the movie-watcher? (I personally found the movie version silly and not scary at all, but the book version still scares me, probably because it remains mostly unseen, and my imagination does the rest.)
6. What's up with nature in this quest? First the Fellowship is "attacked" and defeated by a mountain, then a pack of wolves, and now a giant squid-thing. In the Old Forest they were attacked by trees. Is nature itself an enemy in M-earth, whether Sauron is behind it or not?
That's it for this week. Next week we'll journey through Moria. Thanks to everyone who's reading along! All comments/observations/insights are welcome.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 5:32pm
Post #5 of 108
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I recently came across this picture -portrait really- of the two yew trees at the entrance of St Edwards Church, Stow-on-the-Wold, Gloucestershire, England.
http://www.bethmoon.com/TouchWood04.html
Photographer Beth Moon says in her book "it has been suggested that this church door was the inspiration for the Doors of Moria".
Stow isn't too far from Oxford.
There's also a dent just the size of Pippin's head...
(Ok I made that bit up...)
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 7:52pm
Post #6 of 108
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That's an amazing photo. Whether coincidence or true inspiration, it sure matches up with what Tolkien gave us.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 11:34pm
Post #7 of 108
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The Plan: Defeated by Caradhras at the Redhorn Pass, the wily Wizard decides their best hope is to go under the mountain rather than over it, and somehow, the mountains are only sentient and hostile when you cross their outer surface and don't seem to mind you penetrating their interiors. Does anyone understand this? I suppose because the earth itself can't really do much underground - the danger is out where boulders and weather cane interface with evil (or just not kind) intent? Might it reflect a bit on the lifestyle of the Dwarves, and of their early creation and sleep beneath the earth: very much like a womb metaphor? Yet one 'outside' the rest of life in Arda, which awakens at the world's surface. Its interesting in light of Gandalf's warning about 'older and fouler things in the deep places of the earth.' Because that indicates knowledge of dark dangers; yet perhaps his hope is that they are more mindless, less organized than the dangers - with Saruman and Sauron at the helm - than they face above ground? Is this a democracy? We're treated to a debate among the Fellowship about the wisdom or folly of going through the Mines of Moria, a place so dreadful, even the hobbits have heard of it. While Boromir is the greatest dissenter, even normally-quiet Legolas speaks up and says he doesn't want to go there. They speak of voting--is this a democracy? Notice how Boromir's character has radically changed. Upon leaving Rivendell, he gave a blast of his great horn, announcing to the world that he was leaving. But with the Redhorn Pass and regarding Moria, he keeps voicing caution. How do you account for this? Would he be as cautious if he were in charge, or is his dissatisfaction at being a follower causing him to be critical of authority? Given that Boromir was able to travel successfully on his own to Rivendell from Minas Tirith, why doesn't he leave the Company at this point and head toward the Gap of Rohan on his own? What's keeping him here?
Debate wise I note Boromir's routes seem to take them near to Men, and thus people I think he feels allied to and can understand versus this Elvish sort of thought that the Fellowship has. So I'm not sure if its caution OR instead it is Boromir seeking a comfort zone; and maybe tilting the axis with more allies on his side (which he may see men as 'naturally' so, especially as the Steward's son). I think his misunderstanding of Faramir's dream - as the doom of Minas Tirith - is what may still be holding him to the Fellowship despite disagreements. That love he has for Gondor, if it under some cloud of threat, would be enough for the honorable reasons, even before we could say the Ring had any real draw upon him. That comes later.
What makes this Middle-earth: a significant piece of character and social development is revealed when Aragorn, though personally opposed to entering Moria, supports Gandalf because the Wizard previously supported his decision to cross the Redhorn Pass and didn't utter a word of criticism after its failure. How often does this happen in real life that a) your opponent on a position voices no blame when you fail, and b) you cites that as a reason for supporting them even though you think they're going to fail, all for the sake of honor? My point being: if you want to escape the crass real world, pick up Tolkien, and you'll find people acting a little bit better than they do in reality, where honor and the common good trump self-interest.
This is a sign of nobility I think, and humility which I think JRRT very much saw in Aragorn. Plus its a nice glimpse into the work these two have done together before because of the trust and respect that is shown here. Funny about that in retrospect of how (as Darkstone puts it) the Council meeting was managed and Frodo's quest was 'facilitated'.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 11:53pm
Post #8 of 108
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What a fantastic photo. Beautiful.
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I don't know if its an actual inspiration but it has that weight to it.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 12:11am
Post #9 of 108
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Dueling proverbs. Do Aragorn and Boromir ever pass up a chance to compete with each other? I credit Boromir with that snappy saying, "The wolf that one hears is worse than the orcs that one fears," which is pretty memorably, but Aragorn feels compelled to immediately one-up him with, "But where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." (And really, how much fun did Tolkien have inventing these lines?!)
I completely see this as an extension of that little verbal skirmish in Council.
Wow!!!! Can the Wizard do this kind of thing all the time? Is this what we missed when he fought the Nazgul on Weathertop? Is this Narya doing the heavy lifting, or could Saruman and Radagast have done the same thing? (PS. Does it bother you that Gandalf's spell isn't translated, or are you able to figure out that it probably has something to do with lots and lots of fire? Have you ever tried it at home?)
Are you surprised that Gandalf can do something this dramatically powerful, or did you expect it all along?
I think on first read I didn't expect it but was thrilled to have it happen. Its like we get glimpses of Gandalf, and by many glimpses you get a fractured picture which is very effective from a literary perspective. It could be written in one sentence: but the reveals we get, right up to the flabbergasting one of the return of Gandalf the White, whet the appetite for more about this puzzling Wizard.
I think in a mechanical sense Narya aids Gandalf in whatever innate skills he has in 'kindling' and guiding energy (magical, fire, humanoid). Saruman has different abilities and his seem to be of the mind: maybe a ring like Vilya would have suited him, some way to get information and read and control the air and wind. In which case good thing no one handed it over. So in short, I think that Gandalf had an innate skill set different to that of Saruman AND the foresight of Cirdan in sensing Gandalf's importance brings that to a higher level of function.
You can burn a perfectly good grilled cheese with that spell, BTW.
The Big People all get mention in the warg attack, but the hobbits only comment on surviving it. Do you think they fought any wolves themselves?
No at this stage I don't think they did. JRRT writes 'the swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered'. I think that describes, at this stage, what the Men, the Dwarf and the Elves are rather for in both large and small scale: to defend these small heroes, small reader proxies, from the wider world that they as of yet have no skills to manage.
Why could the wolves be killed yet they left no bodies behind? Do they regenerate and come back? Should we assume this is a small, special pack of magical wargs that Sauron sent to get the Ring, or does he have hundreds or thousands of these creatures in Mordor kennels? If the wargs had killed everyone in the Fellowship, how would Sauron get his Ring back: would orcs scavenge the corpses, or would the wargs eat the corpses and swallow the Ring, obliging Sauron to cut them open or wait for their digestion and bowel movements to get back the trifle that he fancies?
Whew...the whole wolf BM concept really had my mind wandering for a bit... back OT, I think that the implication might be that the enemies are gathering their own dead back: who knows for what (cannibalism? Burial?) but its a bit creepy that they vanish. I may be reading too much into things but to me it also implies 'hands' maybe, and organization. The lack of specification is what makes it the creepy what's-under-the-bed type of sleight of hand. I think too that sense of unnamed menace is a rationale for going below ground in the face of other dangers.
The Fellowship has traveled to Caradhras without a single attack on them. What gave them away to the wargs: the spying crebain? Gandalf lighting a fire on Caradhras? Or were the wargs just posted as guards near Moria and picked up their scent?
Or maybe all those PLUS the distance from Rivendell and the safety of the Elven patrol net?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 1:49am
Post #10 of 108
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Sorry about the wolf intestinal discharge
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But inquiring minds want to know!
This is all excellent:
I think on first read I didn't expect it but was thrilled to have it happen. Its like we get glimpses of Gandalf, and by many glimpses you get a fractured picture which is very effective from a literary perspective. It could be written in one sentence: but the reveals we get, right up to the flabbergasting one of the return of Gandalf the White, whet the appetite for more about this puzzling Wizard.
I think in a mechanical sense Narya aids Gandalf in whatever innate skills he has in 'kindling' and guiding energy (magical, fire, humanoid). Saruman has different abilities and his seem to be of the mind: maybe a ring like Vilya would have suited him, some way to get information and read and control the air and wind. In which case good thing no one handed it over. So in short, I think that Gandalf had an innate skill set different to that of Saruman AND the foresight of Cirdan in sensing Gandalf's importance brings that to a higher level of function.
You can burn a perfectly good grilled cheese with that spell, BTW. I didn't expect it on 1st read either, and it left me expecting more fights like that later in the book, which never happen. The fight with the Balrog is offstage, and the showdown with the Witch-king never happens, so this is the most we get. But as you observed, we get little glimpses of Gandalf, and it's up to us to form the mosaic of that complex character, so it works. Maybe if there's ever a remake of the LOTR movie, they'll put in the warg attack scene, and audiences will get to know a much different Gandalf.
And neat observation of Saruman and Vilya! Yes, I can see that pairing making sense. I don't think of Narya as having a series of buttons you push for literal fire effects, but I can't see it sitting there idly either, so it's involved somehow, in a channeling kind of way. Like a Wizard's staff, making Gandalf doubled up on armaments.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 1:58am
Post #11 of 108
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I guess my thinking with sentient mountains is that shouldn't they collapse the mines that people dig inside of them? I think if I were a mountain, I'd be far more annoyed at people hacking away at my roots than trotting across my passes, and I'd make their tunnels cave in. (Now we need Barbara Walters to come out of retirement to ask in celebrity interviews: "If you were a mountain, what kind would you be?") 
Great point about Boromir seeking out the familiar (humans) at every turn. That makes me wonder about the parallel thought: Legolas certainly knows where Lorien is even if his people don't go there anymore. It's just over the mountain. We don't get every word recorded, but would he have likely said, "If only we could make it over the mountain, my race would shelter us." (Or maybe he knew they wouldn't take kindly to a Dwarf and kept quiet about that.)
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 7:30am
Post #13 of 108
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You've been missing for too long.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 9:30am
Post #14 of 108
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Caradhras - a matter of personal space?
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The Plan: Defeated by Caradhras at the Redhorn Pass, the wily Wizard decides their best hope is to go under the mountain rather than over it, and somehow, the mountains are only sentient and hostile when you cross their outer surface and don't seem to mind you penetrating their interiors.
Does anyone understand this?
It makes perfect sense until I think about it. Now You've encouraged me to think about it, it doesn't make much logical sense. I think I accept the idea without question because it makes anthropological sense.
Society behaves as if each of us moves within an envelope of personal space. How far this extends varies by culture and other factors - for example in the city people brush past you in a way they avoid in smaller towns. There are varied and complex rules about "invading" that space. So it makes kinda-sense that the surface is art of Caradhras's personal space, but underground isn't.
This probably comes to the same thing as saying Caradhras is the genius loci (spirit of a place) and the surface is one place, Moria another.
This "personal space" issue comes up, I think, in the workings of the Ring as an invisibility device, and in similar fantasy invisibility devices - e.g. Harry Potter's invisibility cloak. The behaviour of these devices becomes problematic if you dissect it logically: for example, invisibility extends to anything Blbo is wearing or carrying when he puts the Ring on. But it does not extend to the ground he stands on (no invisible footprints as discontinuities in the floor to give him away). I don't recall whether invisibility extends to anything Bilbo or Frodo picks up when already invisible, or whether it would extend to, say, something they ate whilst invisible (presumably not, or the Mirkwood elves would have notice this odd walking barium meal assay moving around their palace). Such issues were, I think, pondered by HG Wells when he tried to dress up the Invisible Man's invisibility in pseudo-physics. Tolkien doesn't need to do that: I think we accept intuitively that the Ring seems to affect a wearer's personal space.
Or something like that - the logic that fantasy writers use doesn't have to be logical logic!
Alternatively - maybe Caradhras is fully aware they party has gone underground, and this delights him, as he continues to wish them ill.
Or, maybe he's fed up of being taken for granite. Maybe he's delighted to be visited in the round, rather than just having a bunch of guys going "dat pass!" all the time.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 9:32am
Post #15 of 108
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The Fellowship has traveled to Caradhras without a single attack on them.
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..but then Gandalf does his fire-lighting trick and says that he has revealed his own presence at least.
Maybe someone noticed and sent a patrol?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 9:40am
Post #16 of 108
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Lovely observations about how we see a nice bit of the Second Age decayed!
The only thing I have to add here, unfortunately is the amusing gripe I picked up from Hammond and Scull: Why does the inscription refer to the place as "Moria": isn't that (a) the name it got after it's fall and (b) a term meaning "The Black Pit"? If so, it's an unlikely thing to put on an inscription - a bit like Henry Ford erecting a sign outside his new auto factory saying "Welcome to the Rust belt".
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 9:54am
Post #17 of 108
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"...all guided by one purpose..."?
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("...all guided by one purpose..." is what Gandalf says of the many tentacles - suggesting that they were all part of one largely unseen creature, as opposed to a bunch of independent ones).
I think it's scarier because it is unseen.
Frodo is attacked by various opponents, from Old Man Willow onwards, who might or might not be in Cahoots with Sauron (or Saruman, perhaps). I think that not only does Tolkien not want to say whether they are all part of a grand plan; I think he changed his mind about it (certainly about Old Man Willow , and the Barrow Wights). So I'm not sure whether there is an "official" answer.
Nor am I sure that an "official" answer would be helpful: Yet another "mystery" in the writing. And, as should be the case with a mystery done well, leaving it as a mystery is perversely more satisfying than being given any one solution.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 12:11pm
Post #18 of 108
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That ranks up there with your "Discretion is the better part of the Valar." LOL!
I guess the personal space idea works when you think that a mountain's surface is where it interfaces with the world, and it's interfaces that are the most sensitive areas (like skin having more nerves than your kidneys and other internal organs).
And maybe Caradhras took the Balrog for granite and counted on him to do in the Fellowship--he was doubtless eating popcorn and enjoying the show and saw no need to drop rocks into tunnels. For all we know, Caradhras even *invited* the Balrog to come live beneath him.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 12:19pm
Post #19 of 108
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Somehow that seems like it ought to be a song, though not a very good one.
It's amazing how many times I've read LOTR and never noticed that Tolkien anachronism. It's like saying Isildur painting a sign saying, "Welcome to my city of Minas Morgul." Wrong! It was Minas Ithil in his day. Well, I guess we have to forgive Tolkien this error, or maybe he's been revealed as the cheap hack writer he really his, riddling his books with errors and shallow nonsense. I'm not sure why we bother discussing him at all when he's so sloppy.
OK, rant over, and I guess I'll have to live with this. However, here's a possibilituy. Gandalf is translating the doors into Westron, so maybe they originally said Khazad-dum, and he just substituted the modern name? Then it was the illustrator's fault for getting it all wrong. Oh, whatever.
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Modtheow
Lorien
Apr 27 2015, 12:41pm
Post #20 of 108
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Glad to see you're still here. I'll try to stop by more often.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Apr 27 2015, 2:36pm
Post #21 of 108
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I had always assumed there were no bodies because Gandalf's wizard fire totally obliterated them.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 3:05pm
Post #22 of 108
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I think we should blame whoever illustrated the Red Book, and lettered the inscription Gandalf read, not what the door said.
"And with one bound, Jack was free!"
An alternative idea that Hammond & Scull note is someone's suggestion that the inscription was self-updating. Ingenious, but not supported by the text.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 27 2015, 3:51pm
Post #23 of 108
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The Wargs are Werewolves? Aragorn in Moria.
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I've seen it conjectured that the Wargs whose bodies disappeared in daylight were actually Werewolves and that the spirits possessing the wolf bodies depart to find a new host. This certainly doesn't happen with oridinary Wargs judging from the pelt that Beorn nailed to a wall in The Hobbit. But then what are we to make of the pelt of Draugluin worn as a disguise by Beren after the great Werewolf was slain by Huan in the First Age? Perhaps Draugluin is an exception.
So we learn that, like Gandalf, Aragorn has also previously visited Moria, apparently alone (although the wizard knows about it). Surely this wasn't one of Aragorn's earliest adventures, maybe even before he first met Gandalf? Might this have been between his engagement to Arwen in Lorien and the Great Years comprising the War of the Ring? It had to be before TA 2989 which was when Balin attempted to recolonize Moria, so it could not possibly have been connected to the Hunt for Gollum.
I thought that it was only natural that the entrance would be labeled with the Elven name, Moria. The Dwarves do not use their own names in public for themselves or their places.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 27 2015, 3:56pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 27 2015, 5:10pm
Post #24 of 108
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Organizational Learning Approaches
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The Plan: Defeated by Caradhras at the Redhorn Pass, the wily Wizard decides their best hope is to go under the mountain rather than over it, and somehow, the mountains are only sentient and hostile when you cross their outer surface and don't seem to mind you penetrating their interiors. Does anyone understand this?
Kinda depends on where the spirit of Caradhras resides.
From Edmond S. Meany’s Mount Rainier: a record of exploration (1916):
Listen to me my good friends. I must talk to you.
Your plan to climb Takhoma [Mount Rainier] is all foolishness. No one can do it and live. A mighty chief dwells upon the summit in a lake of fire. He brooks no intruders.
Many years ago my grandfather, the greatest and bravest chief of all the Yakima, climbed nearly to the summit. There he caught sight of the fiery lake and the infernal demon coming to destroy him, and he fled down the mountain, glad to escape with his life. Where he failed, no other Indian ever dared make the attempt.
At first the way is easy, the task seems light. The broad snowfields, over which I have often hunted the mountain goat, offer an inviting path. But above them you will have to climb over steep rocks overhanging deep gorges where a mistep would hurl you far down -- down to certain death. You must creep over steep snow banks and cross deep crevasses where a mountain goat could hardly keep his footing. You must climb along steep cliffs where rocks are continually falling to crush you, or knock you off into the bottomless depths.
And if you should escape these perils and reach the great snowy dome, then a bitterly cold and furious tempest will sweep you off into space like a withered leaf. But if by some miracle you should survive all these perils the mighty demon of Takhoma will surely kill you and throw you into the fiery lake.
Don't you go!
You make my heart sick when you talk of climbing Takhoma. You will perish and your people will blame me.
Don't go!
Don't go!
If you will go, I will wait here two days, and then go to Olympia and tell your people that you perished on Takhoma. Give me a paper to them to let them know that I am not to blame for your death.
My talk is ended.
-Sluiskin, Yakima Guide, as translated by General Hazard Stevens
Is this a democracy?
More like an ad hoc anarcho-syndicalist alliance, though of course Elrond Half-Elven bestowed The Blade That Was Broken upon Aragorn, signifying by divine providence his office of High King, but arguably reclusive Elf Lords hiding in secret valleys distributing reforged swords is really no basis for a system of government.
We're treated to a debate among the Fellowship about the wisdom or folly of going through the Mines of Moria, a place so dreadful, even the hobbits have heard of it. While Boromir is the greatest dissenter, even normally-quiet Legolas speaks up and says he doesn't want to go there. They speak of voting--is this a democracy?
It’s a “company” of “free companions”:
”On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.”
Basically a band of condottieri who are not bound by contract, only by the Code of the Fellowship, as set down by the Elf Lord Elrond, which seem to be more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
Notice how Boromir's character has radically changed. Upon leaving Rivendell, he gave a blast of his great horn, announcing to the world that he was leaving. But with the Redhorn Pass and regarding Moria, he keeps voicing caution. How do you account for this? Would he be as cautious if he were in charge, or is his dissatisfaction at being a follower causing him to be critical of authority?
Actually, being that he’s the one who’s most recently travelled this way you’d think everyone would bow to his knowledge and judgment.
Given that Boromir was able to travel successfully on his own to Rivendell from Minas Tirith, why doesn't he leave the Company at this point and head toward the Gap of Rohan on his own?
If he leaves he won’t know how everything turns out.
What's keeping him here?
Duty and honor. Obviously the Fellowship needs him.
What makes this Middle-earth: a significant piece of character and social development is revealed when Aragorn, though personally opposed to entering Moria, supports Gandalf because the Wizard previously supported his decision to cross the Redhorn Pass and didn't utter a word of criticism after its failure. How often does this happen in real life that a) your opponent on a position voices no blame when you fail,…
It’s called “professionalism”, and is a crucial aspect of any military after action review (AAR). The AAR asks four questions: “What was supposed to happen?”, “What actually happened?”, “Why the difference?”, and “What did we learn?” The question “Who is to blame?” is irrelevant. The military AAR is increasingly being utilized in business and civilian government (especially after disasters), but the human need to put the blame on someone rather than addressing what actually happened and how to fix it is still an overwhelming social urge that impedes honest assessment when things inevitably go wrong.
… and b) you cites that as a reason for supporting them even though you think they're going to fail, all for the sake of honor?
Because Aragorn recognizes Gandalf’s professionalism. If indeed Gandalf was the type to assign blame rather than learn from mistakes, then yes Aragorn might feel justified in questioning his decision making ability.
My point being: if you want to escape the crass real world, pick up Tolkien, and you'll find people acting a little bit better than they do in reality, where honor and the common good trump self-interest.
Which are military ideals (though admittedly not universal military practices.)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 5:52pm
Post #25 of 108
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Thanks for pointing that out, Darkstone. I've only worked in private business for my working life, and while once in awhile there have been meetings similar to what you describe, where "no one is to blame," the subcontext has been that whoever really screwed up is doomed to not be promoted and might eventually be fired despite official assurances to the contrary. Does the military really stick to the ethic that no one is to blame, or do the people at fault silently get stuck in the "will never be promoted" category?
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