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**The Ring Goes South** - 4. Behind them the night was like a black wall. But the wood was burning fast, and the snow still fell.

squire
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 1:06pm

Post #1 of 13 (3160 views)
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**The Ring Goes South** - 4. Behind them the night was like a black wall. But the wood was burning fast, and the snow still fell. Can't Post

4.1 A Shadow Passes Over
Summary: The company hides under the bushes for the rest of the day, as the black birds return several times, only heading south at sunset. Turning towards the three peaks, they march through the night by the light of the full moon on the remains of an old road of the Elven-kingdom. Just before dawn, Frodo and Gandalf feel a shadow pass overhead, with Aragorn noting by its motion that it was no cloud.

The red of the sunset is repeated in the red of the rock of Caradhras.
A. Why the emphasis on ‘red’ in this passage?

Their path is apparently an old road, “that had once been broad and well planned”. Earlier we passed similar ruins of Men’s work, around Weathertop, and will see the same in Dunharrow, Ithilien and Anorien. Up to now, I’d have guessed we readers associate Tolkien’s Elves with feasts in a forest clearing, and enchanted halls full of firelight and old songs.
B. Is it odd that the ancient ruins of an Elvish land, Eregion, should seem so similar to the engineering works of the imperial Dunedain?

Right, you don’t care about that stuff just now. You care about…
C. What was that, um, “shadow” that dimmed the stars, was moving fast, and not with the wind?

4.2 Should We Take The Secret Way?
Summary: The chill East Wind returns as they continue on towards the mountains for two more days of hiding and nights of marching. The peak of Caradhras looms redly before them on the fourth morning since they arrived in Hollin, but the dawn sky is darkened and Gandalf sees signs of heavy snow on the mountains’ heights to the north. Frodo overhears the latest round of a quiet debate between the wizard and Aragorn as to their course: should they dare the high and exposed pass in winter weather, continue to the Gap of Rohan where Saruman lurks, or take ‘the dark and secret way that we have spoken of.’ Aragorn rejects the last choice vehemently, but Gandalf notes that now is when they must decide, before ascending further.


Climbing Caradhras, by Ted Nasmith

Tolkien, quite properly, allows days of travel for an approach to foothills and then mountains of Alpine proportions. Yet very little happens during those days, so that they seem to pass quite quickly.
D. Is this level of geographical and logistical “realism” necessary in writing a quest epic, or heroic fantasy, or whatever this is?

There seems to be constant emphasis on the “sheer naked sides” of Caradhras, in one variation of description or another.
E. Aren’t most mountains like this, or aren’t they?

F. Given the obvious difficulties in arranging for such things, why does Gandalf assume there may be “watchers” monitoring the Redhorn Gate?

Aragorn says, ‘I think no good of our course from beginning to end, as you know well, Gandalf.’
G. What does Aragorn mean by that rather negative statement?

H. Why does Aragorn here seem to doubt the loyalty of Rohan, when later he will say of the rumor, ‘I believe it no more than did Boromir’?

From the point of view of suspense for the reader, nothing could be more enticing than Gandalf’s cryptic phrase, ‘there is another way, … the dark and secret way that we have spoken of.’
I. But from the point of view of the way people actually talk, why doesn’t Gandalf say, ‘there is another way: the road through Moria”?

4.3 They Prepare to Ascend the Pass
Summary: That afternoon, before they start, Gandalf and Aragorn step away to finally decide their route. Frodo is relieved when they choose to attempt the pass of Caradhras, rather than the ‘secret way’ that Aragorn so evidently feared. Gandalf announces the decision, acknowledging the danger of being observed, and of being trapped by snow, for which his solution is speed. Boromir, however, interjects his own knowledge of high passes, and recommends that everyone gather and bring a bundle of firewood – just in case, as it were. Gandalf reluctantly agrees to this.

We are told that Frodo “could not guess what” the other way was, that Gandalf and Aragorn have rejected.
J. Hasn’t he just spent two and a half months in Rivendell, in the company of Gimli at least not to mention the others, who might have at least told him the legends and location of Moria?

Now, here I get on my soap box. “Book Boromir”, if I may call him that, has gotten a lot of bad press over the years, especially in comparison to “Film Boromir”, the charismatic Sean Bean who romps and frolics with the hobbits in a scene that, somehow, Tolkien forgot to include in this chapter. But I’d like to point out that in this passage, Boromir is the only one of the well-traveled adventurers on this trek who even thinks to suggest they bring firewood while crossing the Alps in midwinter. And Gandalf acts like he wishes he could say no, that’s just not a great idea except it so obviously is.
K. Well? WELL???

4.4 The Snowfall Begins
Summary: They begin to ascend the mountain on a path that is difficult and at times dangerous, in ‘deadly darkness”. Around midnight, as they struggle along sheer walls or up steep slopes, it begins to snow. As it begins to accumulate about their feet, the hobbits become nervous, unused as they are to a heavy fall. Gandalf and Aragorn engage in recriminations, with Aragorn defending his choice to attempt the pass in winter by saying they are not yet at a high enough elevation to explain so heavy a blizzard. Boromir suggests the storm is “a contrivance of the Enemy”, using as his example Sauron’s control over the weather in the mountains that surround Mordor. Gimli objects that this is different, by about a thousand miles, but Gandalf cryptically suggests that Boromir is not entirely out of line.


Caradhras, by Bastien Grivet

Narrow paths. Sheer cliffs above. Gulfs of darkness below.
L. How does the landscape description here compare to the crossing of the Misty Mountains by Bilbo and the Dwarves in The Hobbit, or to Frodo’s ascent of the Ephel Duath in Book IV?

We hear, through Sam’s words, how the hobbits regard snow. This is usually regarded as another example of how the hobbits’ point of view is given priority throughout the story.
M. Do you miss hearing what Gimli, or Legolas, or one of the Men, thinks of the snow?

N. Is Boromir right that this blizzard was ‘contrived’ by Sauron?

4.5 They Seek ‘Shelter’ From The Blizzard
Summary: They struggle on through the deepening snow and swirling winds. The hobbits in particular are affected and increasingly exhausted. Stopping suddenly, the entire company becomes aware of strange sounds like howls and cries in the wind, and stones begin falling down the mountainside, barely missing them. Boromir advises a halt, saying there are spirits abroad intent on doing them harm; Aragorn irritably quibbles the point. Gandalf says they will not find better shelter ahead, as he remembers the trail, and so they should either stay at the foot of the cliff where they are, or go back. Aragorn notes that behind them is no place better either, and Sam jokes bitterly about how at this point, “one wall and no roof make a house.”


The Anger of the Mountain, by Ted Nasmith

I remember learning early on, even in the context of the lowly White Mountains of New Hampshire, that one should not take chances with exposure to storms at altitude, but should immediately seek shelter when the weather becomes wet or cold.
O. Shouldn’t they have stopped long before this point?

P. What are the noises and the rocks?

Aragorn says, ‘There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own.’ It is this statement, and others like it, that have caused critics to scold Tolkien for writing, in his unpublished essay “The Hunt for the Ring” (in Unfinished Tales) that it was the Witch-king who aroused the Barrow-wights to be on the lookout for the hobbits.
Q. Which is scarier: a world where Evil is directed by a central being, or where Evil is everywhere and under no control?

Gandalf replies to Gimli’s mocking of Boromir’s suggestion that Sauron controls the storms of Caradhras, by saying, ‘His arm has grown long.’
R. What is Gandalf saying about Boromir’s theory?

4.6 They Start a Fire Despite the Risk
Summary: Huddling against the cliff wall, the company is assaulted by snow and wind. The hobbits are sheltered somewhat by Bill the pony, but the drifts are threatening to bury them. Frodo becomes sleepy, and hallucinates about returning to Rivendell where a fire is heating his toes and Bilbo scolds him for retreating from a mere snowstorm. Boromir wakens Frodo, who has fainted into the snow, and demands that Gandalf come up with some idea to save the hobbits and the rest of them. Gandalf produces a flask of miruvor, “the cordial of Imladris”, and passes it around; it temporarily revives everyone’s spirits. But the storm continues, and Boromir proposes the fire that he’s had in mind since they left that evening. Gandalf consents, but no one can light one, so in the end he ignites the wood by magic, noting grimly that he’s just alerted the forces of darkness for miles around of his presence. No one cares: they rejoice at the fire and gather in a circle around it. The fire is merry, but the storm continues and “the wood was burning fast.”

S. Why does Frodo’s dream focus on his inadequacy as a diarist in Bilbo’s eyes?

T. When Boromir demands that Gandalf “do something to save ourselves” from death, did he expect to be offered a flask of liquor?

U. What is miruvor, do you think?

V. St. Bernards and those little flasks about their necks aside, is it smart to drink liquor to combat hypothermia?

Gandalf kindles the wood into “a great spout of green and blue flame”, using a word of command and his staff.
W. Could Saruman or Radagast have ignited a bundle of wet wood in a subfreezing blizzard, or is this a power exclusive to Gandalf with his (unknown to the reader) Ring of Fire?

X. Why is Gandalf convinced they are being watched, even on a sheer mountainside in the midst of a blizzard with visibility measurable in yards?

Y. What is a ‘faggot’ of wood, and why do we blush or laugh nervously reading this word in the book today?



squire online:
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 3:21pm

Post #2 of 13 (3089 views)
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"It matters little who is the enemy, if we cannot beat off his attack" (a general reflection on this section) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm very eager to make a general point about the writing in this chapter:

I think it’s worth noting about this chapter that we never do discover who is opposing the Fellowship’s advance. If indeed anyone is at all: the possibility that the crows and the unusual weather (and even the wolves slightly later) are nothing to do with the Fellowship at all is doggedly kept open. Kept open, with (I think) a deliberate lack of conviction!

Tolkien is determined only to tell and show us what the characters experience themselves. So all we readers have to go on is the description of that - and the theories the characters suggest (almost always for another to contradict or throw doubt upon the idea). I think it is this constant too and fro of rival theories that allows Tolkien to pull the whole thing off a mystery, rather than it becoming a muddle. It would be all too easy for the whole chapter to collapse into exasperating confusion, leaving the reader to fume that Tolkien ought to have gone away, decide what HE thinks was going on, and then imply that! Instead, it succeeds brilliantly for me: I can’t imagine a solution to the mystery that would work better than leaving it mysterious.

Actually, I don’t think it matters whether Tolkien has or has not decided upon a “correct” answer: I think it’s OK for this to be something that the reader cannot figure out for sure, even in principle provided that the writing is convincing.

By the way, I’ve been writing elsewhere about how a storyteller can use “mysteries” (an unknown to which the audience cannot, even in principle, find a fixed answer with certainty) as opposed to “puzzles”, where a correct answer can be deduced or inferred (link here, so as not to repeat all that! http://chrisj-rr-baker.livejournal.com/1753.html )

The Peter Jackson movie, did, of course decide on a solution (we are shown that the crows and the snow are caused by Saruman - we skip the wolf attack). I think this might be to do with it being difficult to sustain this kind of ambiguity in film without it just looking like a bad film.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 2:03am

Post #3 of 13 (3062 views)
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Amiguity [In reply to] Can't Post

When I was younger, I certainly wanted hard, firm answers, and it really bugged me that I never knew for sure if Caradhras was on Sauron's payroll or not or an independent agent. I still don't know, but I can appreciate the ambiguity now. You're right, it probably wouldn't work in a movie, though having everything attributed in the LOTR movies was a little disappointing to me. It seemed to robbed Middle-earth of its mystery. But there's only so much you can do in 3 hours.

Thanks for blog link--will have to read that next!


Modtheow
Lorien


Apr 27 2015, 3:59pm

Post #4 of 13 (3038 views)
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Red [In reply to] Can't Post

I’m intrigued by Tolkien’s use of colours, so thanks for pointing out the red here, which made me go back and look at all the redness in this chapter. There’s lots!

I’ve always thought that red is a colour that Tolkien does not generally use in a positive way. I was a bit surprised to see a star that’s red — stars have positive Elvish connotations, right? — but at least I know now, thanks to Darkstone, that the red star-eye-thingie in this chapter is Borgil. But even so, its “glaring” at Frodo like a “watchful eye” adds to the growing tension around this planned journey.

More in line with my expectations are the Redhorn Gate and Caradhras, with its “sheer naked sides, dull red as if stained with blood.”

But there are other reds in this chapter too, mostly associated with light and/or heat. When the travellers come to the ancient holly trees, “their berries glowed red in the light of the rising sun.” Tolkien could have just said that the holly berries were red but he seems to want to emphasize the effect of the sunlight on things. In the very next paragraph, the mountain also “glowed red” in the sunlight. At sunset, the “westering Sun grew red” and when the travellers make a fire to warm themselves on the mountain, “a red light was on their tired and anxious faces.” All of this redness definitely stands out against the grey skies, white snow, black night. Seems to me like a strong visual contrast between warmth and cold / fire and ice.

On the other hand: holly, snow, just after Dec. 25 — sounds very Christmas card-y. That can’t be right.


sador
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 5:13pm

Post #5 of 13 (3034 views)
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Speak of the devil [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Why the emphasis on ‘red’ in this passage?
Red does seem to be a colour of evil, doesn't it? As in the Haradrim standard, and of course that of the Mordor orcs.

B. Is it odd that the ancient ruins of an Elvish land, Eregion, should seem so similar to the engineering works of the imperial Dunedain?
Not really, once you read The Silmarillion, or even consider their skill in forging swords. These fellows were engineers!

C. What was that, um, “shadow” that dimmed the stars, was moving fast, and not with the wind?
The several-times reader is bound to assume it was a Ringwraith - perhaps the one who did not perish in the flood, and a Fell Beast was sent to fetch him?
But this is never determined, so it just adds to the general feeling of fear and apprehension.

D. Is this level of geographical and logistical “realism” necessary in writing a quest epic, or heroic fantasy, or whatever this is?
It sure adds to the suspension of disbelief.

E. Aren’t most mountains like this, or aren’t they?

What do you mean by "most"?
I would guess that mountains of that kind of magnitude most likely are, but I really don't know.

F. Given the obvious difficulties in arranging for such things, why does Gandalf assume there may be “watchers” monitoring the Redhorn Gate?
He's just scaring them into obediance.

G. What does Aragorn mean by that rather negative statement?
Washing hands of the responsibility?


But most likely, he doesn't realise that Frodo is awake, and being alone with Gandalf, unburdens himself.

H. Why does Aragorn here seem to doubt the loyalty of Rohan, when later he will say of the rumor, ‘I believe it no more than did Boromir’?
He is still under the influence of the counsel, and Gandalf's words. Later he will reconsider, and make up his mind.
And it is also just possible that he got some information in Lorien.

I. But from the point of view of the way people actually talk, why doesn’t Gandalf say, ‘there is another way: the road through Moria”?
He does not assume that Frodo' or anyone else, is asleep.
Or else this is another case of not speaking of the devil.

J. Hasn’t he just spent two and a half months in Rivendell, in the company of Gimli at least not to mention the others, who might have at least told him the legends and location of Moria?
Yes, and he had also heard of Balin.
I am really unsure why Gandalf and Aragorn would be so reluctant to go there, if Gandalf thinks there still is hope to find Balin. And isn't the reader eager to find out?

K. Well? WELL???
That's a soap box I've been on for years.
Book Boromir is really a useful fellow. And he is nearly always right.

L. How does the landscape description here compare to the crossing of the Misty Mountains by Bilbo and the Dwarves in The Hobbit, or to Frodo’s ascent of the Ephel Duath in Book IV?
It is far more similar to Bilbo's journey - they are not walking up the Stairs of Cirith Ungol.
But the fell voices will only come later, and they are unidentified rather than attributed to stone giants.

M. Do you miss hearing what Gimli, or Legolas, or one of the Men, thinks of the snow?

We will hear later about Legolas.

But we are used to this being a hobbits' tale, so I don't expect anything else.

N. Is Boromir right that this blizzard was ‘contrived’ by Sauron?

We have every reason to believe so.

But I really like to think that it is significant that the only real defeat the Fellowship suffers, is by the elements of nature and not him.

O. Shouldn’t they have stopped long before this point?
Perhaps if they had a different guide...


P. What are the noises and the rocks?

A reader who remembers The Hobbit might think of the giants.
But we're not supposed to know.

Q. Which is scarier: a world where Evil is directed by a central being, or where Evil is everywhere and under no control?
A world in which the nature of evil isd ambiguous.

Abd yes, I agree with those critics. In general I find The Hunt for the Ring disappointing, in Tolkien's trying to tie in a hurry too many loose threads into a pattern they don't fit in.
Why?

R. What is Gandalf saying about Boromir’s theory?
He can't concede a point to him twice, can he?

And he is building the case for going into the Mines, so he doesn't want to alienate his most staunch prospective supporter.

S. Why does Frodo’s dream focus on his inadequacy as a diarist in Bilbo’s eyes?
He thinks on Bilbo, and feels a failure.

T. When Boromir demands that Gandalf “do something to save ourselves” from death, did he expect to be offered a flask of liquor?
He knows by now to lower his expectation from the wizard.

U. What is miruvor, do you think?
Orc-draught with a punch.

Or just a magic cordial.

V. St. Bernards and those little flasks about their necks aside, is it smart to drink liquor to combat hypothermia?
I don't really know. The all-knowing wikipedia recommends warm drinks, but I don't think that extends to grog.

W. Could Saruman or Radagast have ignited a bundle of wet wood in a subfreezing blizzard, or is this a power exclusive to Gandalf with his (unknown to the reader) Ring of Fire?
It appears that fire is his speciality, but I don't really know.

X. Why is Gandalf convinced they are being watched, even on a sheer mountainside in the midst of a blizzard with visibility measurable in yards?
It really is odd. But I think he admits by now that they can't really be watched.


Y. What is a ‘faggot’ of wood, and why do we blush or laugh nervously reading this word in the book today?
A small bundle.
Umm...




Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 28 2015, 6:14pm

Post #6 of 13 (3024 views)
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"Party of 12 schoolboys missing since 1911 found as Aletsch Glacier retreats" [In reply to] Can't Post

The red of the sunset is repeated in the red of the rock of Caradhras.
A. Why the emphasis on ‘red’ in this passage?



For the LORD will restore the excellence of Jacob, as the excellence of Israel: for the plunderers have emptied them out, and marred their vine branches.
The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the cypress trees shall be terribly shaken.

-Nahum 2:2-3


Their path is apparently an old road, “that had once been broad and well planned”. Earlier we passed similar ruins of Men’s work, around Weathertop, and will see the same in Dunharrow, Ithilien and Anorien. Up to now, I’d have guessed we readers associate Tolkien’s Elves with feasts in a forest clearing, and enchanted halls full of firelight and old songs.
B. Is it odd that the ancient ruins of an Elvish land, Eregion, should seem so similar to the engineering works of the imperial Dunedain?


"'That is true,' said Legolas. 'But the Elves of this land were a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago'"


Right, you don’t care about that stuff just now. You care about…
C. What was that, um, “shadow” that dimmed the stars, was moving fast, and not with the wind?


Not Nazgul. Winged Nazgul are not yet allowed across The Great River according to Grishnakh:

’What’s happened to your precious Nazgul? Has he had another mount shot under him? Now, if you’d brought him along, that might have been useful-if these Nazgul are all they make out.’
’Nazgul, Nazgul,’ said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savoured painfully. ’You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk,’ he said. ’Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you’ll wish that you had not said that. Ape!’ he snarled fiercely. ’You ought to know that they’re the apple of the Great Eye. But the winged Nazgul: not yet, not yet. He won’t let them show themselves across the Great River yet, not too soon. They’re for the War-and other purposes.’

-The Uruk-hai

As well as according to Gandalf:

’The Winged Messenger!’ cried Legolas. ’I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?’
’One that you cannot slay with arrows,’ said Gandalf. ’You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun. But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad.’

-The White Rider

And if it was:

At that moment a shadow fell over them. The bright moonlight seemed to be suddenly cut off. Several of the Riders cried out, and crouched, holding their arms above their heads, as if to ward off a blow from above: a blind fear and a deadly cold fell on them. Cowering they looked up. A vast winged shape passed over the moon like a black cloud. It wheeled and went north, flying at a speed greater than any wind of Middle-earth. The stars fainted before it. It was gone.
They stood up, rigid as stones. Gandalf was gazing up, his arms out and downwards, stiff, his hands clenched.
’Nazgul!’ he cried. ’The messenger of Mordor. The storm is coming. The Nazgul have crossed the River! Ride, ride! Wait not for the dawn! Let not the swift wait for the slow! Ride!’

-The Palantir

Which didn’t happen.

But it does sound like crebain:

Away in the South a dark patch appeared, and grew, and drove north like flying smoke in the wind.
`What’s that, Strider? It don’t look like a cloud,’ said Sam in a whisper to Aragorn. He made no answer, he was gazing intently at the sky; but before long Sam could see for himself what was approaching. Flocks of birds, flying at great speed, were wheeling and circling, and traversing all the land as if they were searching for something; and they were steadily drawing nearer.
`Lie flat and still!’ hissed Aragorn, pulling Sam down into the shade of a holly-bush; for a whole regiment of birds had broken away suddenly from the main host, and came, flying low, straight towards the ridge. Sam thought they were a kind of crow of large size. As they passed overhead, in so dense a throng that their shadow followed them darkly over the ground below, one harsh croak was heard.

-The Ring Goes South


Tolkien, quite properly, allows days of travel for an approach to foothills and then mountains of Alpine proportions. Yet very little happens during those days, so that they seem to pass quite quickly.
D. Is this level of geographical and logistical “realism” necessary in writing a quest epic, or heroic fantasy, or whatever this is?


Depends on whether you’re actually world-smithing or just writing about cowboys with swords.


There seems to be constant emphasis on the “sheer naked sides” of Caradhras, in one variation of description or another.
E. Aren’t most mountains like this, or aren’t they?


By the time you notice they’re really mountains, yeah, but a lot of times mountains sneak up on you with toe hills, then foot hills, then ankle hills, then Venus hills, then Sheba hills, and before you know it you’re “pasturing your flock among the lilies”.


F. Given the obvious difficulties in arranging for such things, why does Gandalf assume there may be “watchers” monitoring the Redhorn Gate?

Guy: Umm... I've got an idea. Let's go to that mountain.
Grug: It's too far.
Eep: Dad really has his heart set on a cave.
Guy: Uh, there, are, caves on that mountain.
Eep: Have you been there?
Guy: It's a mountain. Mountains have caves.

-The Croods (2013)

Caves have things living in them, and most of those things have eyes, and a lot of those eyes are in the employ of Sauron. Which might give a hint about the origin of his symbol, though I don’t see why most of those eyes would be on fire, unless maybe they’re all bloodshot from watching all the time.


Aragorn says, ‘I think no good of our course from beginning to end, as you know well, Gandalf.’
G. What does Aragorn mean by that rather negative statement?


“I think…”

Aragorn is thinking too much: About the road, about the quest, about the kingship, probably even about the engagement. Only after the disaster at Amon Hen does he stop listening to his head.

“My heart speaks clearly at last.”


H. Why does Aragorn here seem to doubt the loyalty of Rohan, when later he will say of the rumor, ‘I believe it no more than did Boromir’?

The proper phrasing would be “I believe it *now* no more than did Boromir.”

That is, in the interim he stopped listening to his head and started listening to his heart.


From the point of view of suspense for the reader, nothing could be more enticing than Gandalf’s cryptic phrase, ‘there is another way, … the dark and secret way that we have spoken of.’
I. But from the point of view of the way people actually talk, why doesn’t Gandalf say, ‘there is another way: the road through Moria”?


As Frodo noted way back in the Shire just before they started off, there’s not only “eyes prying” but “ears pricking”.


We are told that Frodo “could not guess what” the other way was, that Gandalf and Aragorn have rejected.
J. Hasn’t he just spent two and a half months in Rivendell, in the company of Gimli at least not to mention the others, who might have at least told him the legends and location of Moria?


“You’ll not only being chased by unkillable undead Nazgul all the way to the fiery poisonous land of Mordor, but have to go through the Black Pit where’s there’s an ancient demon who killed Glorfindel, the Vale of Phantoms where there’s a Elven sorceress who defied the gods, down the Long River where orcs will be taking constant pot shots at you from the eastern shore, and…wait, where are you going? You said ‘I will take the ring to Mordor’, remember?

“Yeah, but back then I didn’t know the way! Now I do and the heck with that!!”

“Wait! It’s not like you’ll have to go through the forest of killer trees, or past the front door of the Witch King, or up the pass of the really huge honking spider that eats all her mates and any passersby, or…”

“I’m outta here!!”


Now, here I get on my soap box. “Book Boromir”, if I may call him that, has gotten a lot of bad press over the years, especially in comparison to “Film Boromir”, the charismatic Sean Bean who romps and frolics with the hobbits in a scene that, somehow, Tolkien forgot to include in this chapter. But I’d like to point out that in this passage, Boromir is the only one of the well-traveled adventurers on this trek who even thinks to suggest they bring firewood while crossing the Alps in midwinter. And Gandalf acts like he wishes he could say no, that’s just not a great idea except it so obviously is.
K. Well? WELL???


Frankly I liked Boromir before he was cool.

As for why Gandalf seemed against it, I recall Hernán Cortés who, upon arrival in the New World, burned all his ships to clearly impress upon his men that there was no turning back. Similarly, maybe Gandalf was meaning to impress upon the Fellowship that once they entered the pass there was no turning back, only in this case, instead of burning stuff he made his point by not having stuff to burn. So just like Cortés only the opposite. Still utterly ruthless, though.


Narrow paths. Sheer cliffs above. Gulfs of darkness below.
L. How does the landscape description here compare to the crossing of the Misty Mountains by Bilbo and the Dwarves in The Hobbit, or to Frodo’s ascent of the Ephel Duath in Book IV?


Interesting. Weather was also a factor in the Misty Mountains, though the chief danger was winds. One would expect similar danger here but insteads it’s cold and snow. Rockfalls seem personified in both, with the Stone Giants in one, and Caradhras itself in the other. (Though there is a hint of Stone Giants.)

Oddly, by comparison the ascent of Ephel Duath seems almost sedate.


We hear, through Sam’s words, how the hobbits regard snow. This is usually regarded as another example of how the hobbits’ point of view is given priority throughout the story.
M. Do you miss hearing what Gimli, or Legolas, or one of the Men, thinks of the snow?


I would always like more Gimli, but having Legolas relate a song about how the Elven maid Celebjörk lost her way in a snowstorm on her way to meet her true love Finafnord at the Grey Havens and how he never found her as how can you find a white haired pale complexioned Elf clad in a white swan outfit in a snowstorm, and so he died, she died, they all died, and a nearby glacier was named Frozenstiffasaboard in their honor is something I could live without.


N. Is Boromir right that this blizzard was ‘contrived’ by Sauron?

Seems more “contrived” by Tolkien, though it would be interesting seeing what the weather was like at the High Pass, the Gap of Rohan, and the Bay of Belfalas around this same time


I remember learning early on, even in the context of the lowly White Mountains of New Hampshire, that one should not take chances with exposure to storms at altitude, but should immediately seek shelter when the weather becomes wet or cold.

“And I thought Bill smelled bad on the *outside*!”


O. Shouldn’t they have stopped long before this point?

Yes. One wonders if the weather had been this bad way back during his 1911 hike in the Alps if we would have ever heard of JRR Tolkien except as one of a group of twelve corpses recovered in the 90s as the Aletsch Glacier receded.


P. What are the noises and the rocks?

Storm Giants on vacation. Or else natural shrinking and expansion of the mountain stone and ice pack. Usually you hear cracking in the morning from about 9am until noon, then things get quiet until it resumes in the late afternoon.


Aragorn says, ‘There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own.’ It is this statement, and others like it, that have caused critics to scold Tolkien for writing, in his unpublished essay “The Hunt for the Ring” (in Unfinished Tales) that it was the Witch-king who aroused the Barrow-wights to be on the lookout for the hobbits.
Q. Which is scarier: a world where Evil is directed by a central being, or where Evil is everywhere and under no control?


Of course one hopes that the default setting of the world isn’t “Evil = on”.


Gandalf replies to Gimli’s mocking of Boromir’s suggestion that Sauron controls the storms of Caradhras, by saying, ‘His arm has grown long.’
R. What is Gandalf saying about Boromir’s theory?


It’s plausible, Sauron is watching, so don’t ask me to do any magic and reveal myself.


S. Why does Frodo’s dream focus on his inadequacy as a diarist in Bilbo’s eyes?

He is a Baggins of Bag End, thus representing Bilbo, and no doubt constantly feeling himself coming up short in comparison.

(Heh. Get it? Coming up “short”. See, he’s a hobbit and hobbits are… Oh, never mind.)


T. When Boromir demands that Gandalf “do something to save ourselves” from death, did he expect to be offered a flask of liquor?

I’m thinking a convocation of eagles.


U. What is miruvor, do you think?

A cordial. The term “liquor” strongly implies distilled alcohol, but not necessarily. Alcohol makes hypothermia worse. I’ll go with a non-alcoholic cordial or squash, like Robinson’s or Vimto. It’s probably an aqueous solution of plant essences found only in Imladris.


V. St. Bernards and those little flasks about their necks aside, is it smart to drink liquor to combat hypothermia?

Alcohol dilates peripheral blood vessels near the skin (and near nerve endings) so you feel warmer. But the warmth is being taken away from the internal organs which is a bad thing. Also with dilated blood vessels, if you happen to get wounded (say, fall and cut yourself on a rock) you’ll bleed out faster.

Of course this would have been the subject of one of the regular health lectures that 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien gave to his men along with other topics such as “keep your feet dry”, “never number two in a fighting or communication trench”, and “if you must parlez-vous with the Mademoiselle from Armentières make sure you wear a little rubber hat”.


Gandalf kindles the wood into “a great spout of green and blue flame”, using a word of command and his staff.
W. Could Saruman or Radagast have ignited a bundle of wet wood in a subfreezing blizzard,…


Saruman’s fire could destroy a stone wall, or kill an Ent, so I don’t see wet wood being a problem.

Radagast probably would have initiated spontaneous combustion of the wood with thermophilic fungi, but more probably have just called for a few warm bears for the Fellowship to cuddle.


…or is this a power exclusive to Gandalf with his (unknown to the reader) Ring of Fire?

In which case he took an awful big chance.


X. Why is Gandalf convinced they are being watched, even on a sheer mountainside in the midst of a blizzard with visibility measurable in yards?

Paranoia. Miruvor can do that to you.


Y. What is a ‘faggot’ of wood,…

Now we’re talking democracy:



(Ignore the axe.)


… and why do we blush or laugh nervously reading this word in the book today?

Because we confuse a bundle of wood (fascis) with a little bird (faygele).

******************************************


sador
Half-elven


Apr 29 2015, 5:00am

Post #7 of 13 (2996 views)
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I never knew [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a time in which dimes had fasces on their reverse side! And the procunsular ones, with the axe - which signifies the power of life and death over non-citizens!
Very interesting indeed. I guess they were taken out of circulations once 'Fascist' became a bad word.

I actually once wrote about the rods/staves of wizards as fasces. here.


squire
Half-elven


Apr 29 2015, 12:02pm

Post #8 of 13 (2989 views)
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A jackbooted March of Dimes? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was fascinated (ha ha) by your speculation that the fasces on the reverse of the dime was replaced by the torch in reaction to the rise of totalitarian fascism in the 20th century.

As best I could make out from wikipedia, never the final source in any debate or question, the dime was changed in 1946 to honor the late president Franklin D. Roosevelt. The articles I read focus on the reasons for the change of the obverse from Lady Liberty (popularly called 'Mercury'): FDR was a great and loved leader, and had sponsored the 'March of Dimes' to fight polio, the disease that crippled him. I found no comment at all on the reasons for changing the reverse design, although certainly with the Nazis and Fascists just defeated the existing design would seem pretty politically incorrect going forward!

On the other hand, when the dime was introduced in 1916 many journalists reported that the Fasces symbol was a 'battle axe' or a 'golf bag'; the designer said he put it on to symbolize 'unity', like a riff on the good old US federalist motto 'e pluribus unum' (nothing about the power of life and death over illegal aliens!); and it's quite likely that only a handful of classicists and intellectuals ever really knew what that thing on the back was, even as Mussolini rose to power and made an ancient Roman republican symbol into something with undertones of evil.

It's not like it was a swastika, thank goodness, but had it really been a problem I should think the Congress would have told the Mint to change the design when we went to war with Italy in 1941, if not earlier.



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 29 2015, 1:28pm

Post #9 of 13 (2977 views)
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At least Congress... [In reply to] Can't Post

...did stop requiring school kids to perform the Bellamy Salute...



...one year after Pearl Harbor.

******************************************


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 29 2015, 1:29pm)


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2015, 4:53pm

Post #10 of 13 (2972 views)
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Bill the tauntaun? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I remember learning early on, even in the context of the lowly White Mountains of New Hampshire, that one should not take chances with exposure to storms at altitude, but should immediately seek shelter when the weather becomes wet or cold.

“And I thought Bill smelled bad on the *outside*!”





I fear that Sam, maddened with grief, would have seized the Ring and become the Dread Gardener Overlord to avenge Bill's death!! Unless, of course, he himself had killed Bill (with tears running down his faithful cheeks) in order to save Frodo from hypothermia, and that would have been OK then. Evil Wink






“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2015, 9:50pm

Post #11 of 13 (2968 views)
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Fascist symbols still in use [In reply to] Can't Post

I was horrified in high school on a trip to the Statehouse in Denver, after having learned about Mussolini and fascism in school, to be invited to speak with our state senator in some important room where there was a giant seal of the state (google "state seal of Colorado" for images), and there so prominently was the fasces. I wanted to blurt out "Why does our state have a Fascist symbol on it?", which would have horrified my poor teachers, but later figured it was designed in 1876 when people were thinking about the glories of the Roman Republic and long before Mussolini perverted it. But it's still there. And actually, I don't think it's a bad thing now, since Mussolini's perversion of it doesn't seem to legitimize erasing it everywhere. He'll be forgotten, and Rome remembered.

But then "Nil Sine Numine" seems to translate as "Nothing without God," so so much for separation of Church and State. Hey, I just grew up there, I didn't design the state logo. Smile


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Apr 30 2015, 8:51am

Post #12 of 13 (2949 views)
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Pippin [In reply to] Can't Post

I must confess to been a bit concerned about the Hobbits and in particular Pippin at this point. Think about it, Pippin has scarcely seen snow and almost certainly not proper snow, is a young Hobbit who likes around 12 meals a day and has never walked anywhere higher than a few hills in Tuckborough and now suddenly he is asked to climb the ME equivalant of Everest it looks like!
Also, I wonder if here the Hobbits are retracing the steps, in the opposite direction of their ancestors? Didn't the Hobbits many a century ago step out from Mirkwood to come to occupy the Shire? And they would have had to go through the Misty Mountains to do so.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2015, 9:00am

Post #13 of 13 (2950 views)
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Those confusing "faggots" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
at last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a hand.Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then...he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out...


That (or an earlier use) had me going for the dictionary on my first read (aged about 11), because I'd only come cross the meaning "A ball or roll of seasoned chopped liver, baked or fried". That misunderstanding conjours a somewhat bizarre mental picture of Gandalf's actions here. Well you did ask what the Fellowship had to eat, squire: faggots, perhaps?

I can't remember when I came across the "informal, offensive, chiefly N Amer" usage "a male homosexual." (A misunderstanding that would be more bizarre and alarming still, on several counts.)

I wonder whether Tolkien was aware of that meaning. Linguistic differences travelled across the Atlantic more slowly in his days, perhaps especially terms of abuse. Print media, film and radio were much more censored, and there ware different conventions as to what constituted politely acceptable speech. If anything he might have been more aware of the 4th meaning my dictionary gives "Brit., dated, offensive : an unpleasant or contemptible woman." Or maybe he spent his time in circles where nobody would possibly use such a term.

I believe he got into similar trouble with the "squint-eyed stranger" in the Prancing pony: In US English (and now in GB English too) "Squint" can mean "to narrow the eyes" , but in GB English it can mean a medical condition ("strabismus") which causes the eye to look obliquely. So Tolkien probably meant that the stranger was acting as if he had this condition: looking watchfully, but sideways: The implication being that he won't meet anyone's eye: he's trying to keep people under observation without being seen to, probably for nefarious reasons (I'm condensing Note 155 from Hammond & Scull Tolkien Readers' Companion; in their discussion of "At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony")

Language moves on - to call someone "gay" now would have definite connotations it would not have had 100 years ago. To call someone an "individual" was insulting in times past. My children would not call someone a "loser", even in the purely technical sense of someone who has just lost a game or contest, however honourably. To them "loser" has too strong a connotation of "a contemptible person incapable of succeeding at anything".

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154

 
 

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