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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 11:09am
Post #1 of 35
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What do you make of the SIZE of the Armies?
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When Azog sends his spawn?.. Bolg to Gundabad we get a Huge shot of The Moria Orc Army. Similar to the Isengard army headed to Helm's Deep in TTT. Well, if we are to believe Aragorn that, THAT was 10,000 @ least... THEN.. Azog had pretty much emptied Moria, & Armored them from Sunlight..that would have.BURNed them. According to the Book, Thranduil brought 700 Archers. Which looked about right in the Movie. Hard to tell exactly how many were brought from Mount Gundabad but a guess? would be about another 5,000.. Dain's Army could have been about 800. {But it has been leaked that there might be a Second Iron Hills Army in the EE} The BATS, maybe about 200.? The Eagles about maybe 30.? The Men & Women of Laketown, about 200 total on the Battle field & Hiding in the City of Dale. Well, once the Battle commences it seems the Good Guys likely kill @least 10 orcs, EACH often. IS there anything in the "Chronicles" Books that list the Totals ? A secong question : Once the Battle is won, were the Entire ORC armies Killed, or did a percentage flee back to where they Came? IT might be logical that even after the Day-Long Battle was over.. The Eagles continued to wipe OUT, any fleeing into the Hills. 60 years later, only puny, Strange BUG-Eyed goblins pursued the "Nine Walkers' in Moria. Would love to know, if anyone here knows an accurate TOTAL?
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Apr 26 2015, 11:12am)
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 11:49am
Post #2 of 35
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I think some orcs survived, it feels like some orcs must have survived. When we see the gundbad army last the eagles attack and kill nearby all in the first line but you see that some orcs survied from the first line and beorn attack the next line so i think they who dont get killed in the lines retreats. The orcs the attack the dwarfs looks to be pretty crushed but i think some survive and they who fight in the city of dale looks to be crushed so idk if someone survive. Its feel that it is more than 200 lakemens its feels like its more 200 that die.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 26 2015, 12:26pm
Post #3 of 35
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But the book doesn't say anything about how many archers Thranduil brought. Not sure where the 700 comes from.
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 12:38pm
Post #4 of 35
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and it isn´t only archers in the film many spearmen and swordmens.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 12:59pm
Post #5 of 35
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In Looking @ "The Clouds Burst" Chapter...
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pg. 283 - 4 ".. the Elves were the first to Charge... behind their Arrows, a 1000 of their Spearmen lept down @ charged.." The Number 700 is not mentioned in the Book, But somewhere? .. Bomby read that number....
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 1:07pm
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The Battle of the Five Armies Conflict: The Treasure of the Lonely Mountain and The possible return of the Kingdom of Erebor Date: October 10, 2941 Place: Lonely Mountain Dale (Film Only) Outcome: Pyrrhic Victory for alliance of Dwarves, Elves, and Men Combatants Lonely Mountain Iron Hills Mirkwood Lake-town Dale Misty Mountains Misty Mountains Dol Guldur (Film Only) Mount Gundabad Mordor Trollshaws Goblin-town Commanders Gandalf Thorin II Oakenshield† Thranduil Bard the Bowman Dain II Ironfoot Beorn Gwaihir Azog† (Film Only) Bolg† Strength 500 Dwarves of the Iron Hills[1] (including the 13 Dwarves of Thorin and Company of the Lonely Mountain) 200 Lakemen from Lake-town 1000-1500 Elves of Mirkwood 100 Great Eagles "Innumberable" Goblins and Wargs[2] Casualties Very heavy: Deaths of Thorin, FIli, and Kili; citizens of Lake-town and Mirkwood Very Heavy: Death of Bolg If it was 1000 spearmens maybe 500 bowmens?
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 1:12pm
Post #7 of 35
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If there was 200 lakemen then they must have lost few and even if all survived...
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is there very few to be king over a land with 200 pepoles, is there really only 200?
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 1:15pm
Post #8 of 35
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A Line form the Movie..." A couple of hundred upset Laketown survivors.."//
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www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 1:45pm
Post #10 of 35
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Copy from lotr wiki Strength (film)
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Strength Along with a formidable legion of Gundabad Orcs, and Bats, the film added the appearance of Were-Worms and Trolls and Ogres. As in the film the entire forces are changed, the Elves and the Lake-men are more numerous that in the book, there is no appearance of the Wargs during the battle. Additional combatants in the battle are Legolas, Tauriel, Radagast, Feren, and Percy. Estimated strength of the Dwarves, Elves, and Men: 3000-4000 Dwarves of the Iron Hills (including the 13 Dwarves of Thorin and Company of the Lonely Mountain) 900-2000 Lake-town Militia 5000-8000 Elves of Mirkwood 80-100 Great Eagles Estimated strength of Azog's army: 10,000-16,000 Guldur Orcs from Dol Guldur 5,000-8,000 Gundabad Orcs from Mount Gundabad (including 20-40 Orc Berserkers) Nearly 200 Goblin Mercenaries 100 Wargs About 25 Trolls At least a dozen Ogres Unknown number of orc war beasts Numerous Bats
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 1:47pm
Post #11 of 35
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Now i and you have answears on our questions ! i think!
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Bofur01
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 2:17pm
Post #12 of 35
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WETA Digital said the Orc army was 30000 strong. //
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 26 2015, 2:20pm
Post #13 of 35
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Bom will go with WETA over WIKI..//
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www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 26 2015, 3:09pm
Post #14 of 35
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Many more combatants in the movie than in the book.
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WETA Digital said the Orc army was 30000 strong. Which one? Azog's Orcs from Dol Guldur? Or Bolg's Gundabad Orcs? There must have been many more in total. The Battle of Five Armies (Book; estimates from The Atlas of Middle-earth): - Dwarves: 500+ - Wood-elves: 1000+ spearmen; unspecified number of archers. - Men: 200 (rough estimate based on the size of Lake-town). - Orcs and Wargs: A vast host--at least several thousand. - Plus Eagles, bats, a Wizard, a Shape-changer and one hobbit. The Battle of Five Armies (Film) - Dwarves: 500 to 1000? - Wood-elves: 2000 or more. - Men: 200? Jackson's Esgaroth was several times larger than how Tolkien portrayed the town, but the survivors who couldn't fight still needed to be cared for and protected. - Eagles: ? - Gandalf (and Radagast) - Beorn - Bilbo - Dol Guldur Orcs: Several thousand. - Gundabad Orcs (plus Goblin Mercenaries): Several thousand. - Wargs, Bats, Trolls and Ogres: Many thousands in total.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bofur01
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 3:23pm
Post #15 of 35
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I can't remember, I think Azog's, but I'm not sure //
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 26 2015, 3:31pm
Post #16 of 35
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Estimate of 200 from the book.
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is there very few to be king over a land with 200 pepoles, is there really only 200? This only counts the Men who were prepared to follow Bard and not those left behind at Long Lake. Tolkien's Lake-town was pretty small and many perished in Smaug's attack. Peter Jackson scaled Esgaroth up significantly; it probably had a population of several thousand. In the movie, Bard might have been able to field 500 to 1000 Men. I was being very conservative above.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 26 2015, 3:33pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 26 2015, 3:38pm
Post #17 of 35
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The trouble with such wikis is that they are simply conjecture.
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You are quite right to point out the 1,000+ Elven spearmen and the 500 dwarves of Dain's army. The rest is simply speculation.
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 26 2015, 5:42pm
Post #18 of 35
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Ok but i talk about the film, and i thought the 200 was the others that was in the city of dale to.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 26 2015, 6:02pm
Post #19 of 35
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In the film - no "200" I don't think.
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Bilbo describes an army of elves and "several hundred" angry fisherman. Is that what you are thinking of?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 26 2015, 8:45pm
Post #21 of 35
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Ok but i talk about the film, and i thought the 200 was the others that was in the city of dale to. The wiki estimate of up to 2000 Lake-men does seem unreasonably high. Jackson's Lake-town was several times larger than the Esgaroth from the book, but it had also fallen on hard times and the population was down. However, if we are counting all of the survivors including women, children, aged and injured then we could be looking at 1000 to 2000 people. Only a few hundred, though, would be men of fighting age and part of Bard's army. If Fonstad's estimate of 200 or so was accurate to the book then I would think that there might have been between 400 and 600 in the movie--maybe on the low side of that range.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 12:25am
Post #22 of 35
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Maybe? Likely? PJ & Phillipa will give us the answer
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in the Commentaries, when we get the EE. Thanks for your Research O-s..ONCE again! ....Karen's Book does a GREAT job of filling in the Book Details. Didn't think to look there..in bom's copy. But Once again, PJ has taken his CUE from Gandalf, "Every Good story deserves Embellishment" Which is Kinda a Mantra for these Movies...in Bom's Mind.
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Konrad S
Lorien
Apr 27 2015, 4:59am
Post #23 of 35
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Okay 1000-2000 pepoles and 200 - 400 Soldiers
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 27 2015, 3:14pm
Post #24 of 35
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Yes. The EE might clarify the numbers.
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If not the extended edition of TH:BotFA then maybe the sixth Hobbit Chronicles book will give a good idea of the size of the armies at the battle.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 30 2015, 2:44am
Post #25 of 35
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I did a rough screen count estimation before and it was discussed, and if I recall
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I came up with at least 3,000 (if not 6,000+) elves based on the square formation. The orc armies were massive based on the cgi figures and rough estimates made it far larger than Helm's Deep, closer to Pelennor Fields. http://www-images.theonering.org/...1/BotFATrailer50.jpg
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 30 2015, 2:54am)
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