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**The Ring Goes South** - 2. Then with one glance at the Last Homely House twinkling below them they strode away far into the night.

squire
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 11:42am

Post #1 of 14 (4291 views)
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**The Ring Goes South** - 2. Then with one glance at the Last Homely House twinkling below them they strode away far into the night. Can't Post

2.1 The Heroes Prepare for An Epic Quest
Summary: Aragorn’s sword is reforged and given a new name and identity, fulfilling Bilbo’s prophecy: “Renewed shall be blade that was broken.” Aragorn and Gandalf use maps and lorebooks to try to plot their best course to the Fire, with Frodo only occasionally listening in. Instead he and the other hobbits continue to learn the Elven lore of the Elder Days, in particular the Lay of Beren and Luthien. At other times Frodo continues to hang with Bilbo, sharing the process of translating adventure into legend.

A. Technically speaking, isn’t it quite difficult to “reforge” a sword that has been broken into pieces?

B. Can you interpret all the many details of the description of Anduril at its creation?

Pippin, we will see, is famously directionally challenged and never paid much attention to the journey he had signed up for, even compared to Merry:
[Pippin] wished now that he had learned more in Rivendell, and looked more at maps and things; but in those days the plans for the journey seemed to be in more competent hands, and he had never reckoned with being cut off from Gandalf, or from Strider, and even from Frodo.
[Merry to Pippin:] ‘I don’t suppose you have much notion where we are; but I spent my time at Rivendell rather better. We are walking west along the Entwash...’ – LotR III.3, bolds by squire.

But here in Rivendell we see that Frodo, too, left the “maps and things” aspects of his life-and-death quest “in more competent hands”.
C. Later in the story when, if ever, do we see the consequences of Frodo spending more time with Bilbo than with Gandalf and Aragorn in this final crucial week of planning the journey?

D. Why wait until the last week, after eight weeks of rest and healing, to visit the Hall of Fire and hear the lay of Beren and Luthien?

E. Where in the various unpublished works can we read the “Lay of Beren and Luthien” as it was sung in the Hall of Fire to the hobbits?

2.2 Bilbo Passes the Torch to Frodo
Summary: On the day of departure, Bilbo gives Frodo Sting and the mithril mail-shirt. Bilbo blesses Frodo and contemplates his own future, limited by age and infirmity.

When Bilbo gives Sting to Frodo, he easily buries it deep in a seasoned beam of hardwood, and Frodo “accepts it”. I think it’s Verlyn Flieger who points out Tolkien’s omission of who, exactly, pulls the darn thing back out.
F. Is this meant to be a buried reference to the Arthurian legend of the Sword in the Stone: that he who can free a buried sword from its prison is the one who will be king (or in Frodo’s case, perhaps, save the kingdom)?

Bilbo says the dwarf-mail is both pretty, and “useful”.
G. When did it prove useful to Bilbo in The Hobbit?

Bilbo dresses Frodo for his quest in arms and armor.
H. Is Bilbo acting as legator or squire here?



2.3 Bilbo’s Song of the Aging Adventurer
Summary: Bilbo sings about how memory of youthful adventure merges with contemplation of the death that old age promises. He regrets missing what he now knows he will never see; and connects that to the similar experiences of others in the past, and in the future. The verse ends lightly, with the elderly narrator waiting for the younger generation to come home and tell him about their adventures.

I. What is the main idea of Bilbo’s song?

J. Is the quality of the verse good enough to call Bilbo a “Poet”?

Suppose that most traditional-style poetry in our world with a theme of mortality tends to invoke some kind of image of an afterlife, or of the concept of divine judgment. This poem , I suggest, does neither – in keeping with Tolkien’s decision to forgo any suggestion of religion in the cultures of Middle-earth.
K. How then does the poem work as a meditation on the “hobbit condition” – substituted, of course, for the “human condition”?

2.4 The Night of Departure
Summary: At dusk in bitter weather the Company prepares to leave Rivendell. Elrond has advised them to travel by night, as Sauron will no doubt be searching for them. The light and unwarlike gear of the travelers is described; Boromir sounds his horn to announce his embarkation, to Elrond’s displeasure. Their extra luggage is carried by Bill the Pony, whom Sam has cared for since they acquired the beast in Bree. As they await Gandalf, still in a last-minute conference with Elrond, Aragorn contemplates his own fate in this venture, and Sam speculates folksily on whether he’s packed all the right things to serve Mr. Frodo.

Although the date is not given in the text more exactly than “near the end of December”, the Appendices tell us the departure takes place on Christmas Night – i.e., on the night of December 25.
L. Why?

Elrond warns the company to beware the “servants of Sauron”: “spies on foot and wing”, so that they must be wary “even of the sky above you”.
M. Does this ever happen – do we ever perceive the presence of the spies of Sauron on the Company as it journeys south from Rivendell?

N. What is the point of the scene where Boromir blows his horn, so that everyone in Rivendell who heard it “sprang to their feet”?

O. How did Gandalf get hold of Glamdring, given that he most recently escaped from Saruman’s prison where they would have stripped him of weapons?

The “spare food and clothes and blankets” for nine people are “laden on a pony”, good old Bill. That seems like a major overload for one pony.
P. Are any of the company wearing backpacks?

Q. What language does Tolkien use to craft the emotional impact of this moment?

Aragorn has “his head bowed to his knees” – the traditional pose of one about to be sick to ones stomach.
R. Elrond knows, but do any of the others take note of this extraordinary attitude of Aragorn’s?

Sam’s packing list is one of the few instances of an inventory that we find in Tolkien. Anthropologists crave inventories because they are such purely factual and unconscious records of material culture:
…his chief treasure, his cooking gear; and the little box of salt that he always carried and refilled when he could; a good supply of pipe-weed (but not near enough, I’ll warrant); flint and tinder; woollen hose: linen; various small belongings of his master’s that Frodo had forgotten and Sam had stowed to bring them out in triumph when they were called for. -- LotR II.3

S. What do we learn from it about Frodo and Sam; about hobbits; about Middle-earth?

T. Does Sam ever, in the story, bring out a small belonging of his master in triumph when it’s called for?

2.5 At Last They Really Go
Summary: Elrond gives them his final words: that only Frodo has committed to take the Ring to the Fire, while the others are only bound to follow him by their own consciences. Gimli, constitutionally incapable of moderation in matters of loyalty, trades epigrams with Elrond on the question of whether intention equals capability. As Bilbo shivers out a final word to Frodo to think of himself as being in a tale that will need telling, the company climbs out of the valley of Rivendell and disappears into the night, headed South.

U. How does the writing of Elrond’s speech create the appropriate drama for this moment in the story?

V. Who wins in the epigram contest, Elrond or Gimli?

Can’t resist:
W. Comment if you dare on Tolkien’s use of Victorian (i.e., not Medieval, time-hallowed, scholarly, etc.) dramatic conventions:

Elrond (Edith).
Go and do your best endeavour,
And before all links we sever,
We will say farewell for ever.
Go to glory and the grave!

Chorus of Elves (Girls).
Go to glory and the grave!
For your foes are fierce and ruthless,
False, unmerciful, and truthless;
Young and tender, old and toothless,
All in vain their mercy crave.

Aragorn (Sergeant).
We observe too great a stress,
On the risks that on us press,
And of reference a lack
To our chance of coming back.
Still, perhaps it would be wise
Not to carp or criticise,
For it's very evident
These attentions are well meant.

Bilbo (General).
Away, away!
Fellowship (Police).
Yes, yes, we go!
Bilbo (General).
Then why this delay!
Fellowship (Police).
Yes, yes, we go!
Bilbo (General).
Yes, but you don't go!
Chorus of Elves (Girls).
At last they go,
At last they go, at last they go!
At last they really, really go!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 4:58pm

Post #2 of 14 (4202 views)
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Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

(Responding only to some of the points for now - more later, perhaps!)


In Reply To
When Bilbo gives Sting to Frodo, he easily buries it deep in a seasoned beam of hardwood, and Frodo “accepts it”. I think it’s Verlyn Flieger who points out Tolkien’s omission of who, exactly, pulls the darn thing back out.
F. Is this meant to be a buried reference to the Arthurian legend of the Sword in the Stone: that he who can free a buried sword from its prison is the one who will be king (or in Frodo’s case, perhaps, save the kingdom)?


perhaps King Arthur, though source-spotters could also go for Sigmund e.g. in Wagner's Ring:


Quote
First Day - Die Walküre (The Valkyrie)
Act 1
Siegmund is the victim of a man-hunt. He stumbles into a hut for shelter and encounters Sieglinde and her husband Hunding, one of his pursuers. Hospitality rules grant Siegmund one night of shelter. Siegmund falls in love with Hunding's wife, Sieglinde, little realising that she is his own sister (Wotan is their father). Sieglinde speaks to Siegmund of her unhappiness; he swears to free her from her marriage. She gives her husband a sleeping-draught. Sieglinde leads Sigmund to the tree round which the hut is built. Buried in it up to the hilt is a sword, left by a one-eyed stranger (Wotan) who attended her forced marriage to Hunding. No-one has been strong enough to withdraw it. Siegmund wrenches the sword from the tree. Sieglinde recognises their shared parentage and Act 1 ends as the transfigured couple embrace and make love.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...ntials_walkure.shtml


Somewhere (probably on this very site!) I read another excellent question - what kind of house-guest is Bilbo, sticking swords into the beams?


In Reply To
Bilbo says the dwarf-mail is both pretty, and “useful”.
G. When did it prove useful to Bilbo in The Hobbit?


Maybe the Sackville-Bagginses tried to knife him? Or mabe he is making a reasonable guess? I think he very much wants Frodo to take it.


In Reply To
Bilbo dresses Frodo for his quest in arms and armor.
H. Is Bilbo acting as legator or squire here?


Bit of both perhaps? (random tangent - both legator and squier are brands of electric guitar...)

I wonder whether Bilbo wishes he was going instead, or is shamefully glad that he is not (or "all of them at once, of course")

Song time (with optional electric guitar duet!)
I like Bilbo's song - it looks both backward to his own adventures and forward. He is no "bidding us a very fond farewell" yet. It is a very Middle-aged poem. Perhaps I like it because I am middle-aged. I am reminded of This:



Quote
The Middle

When I remember bygone days
I think how evening follows morn;
So many I loved were not yet dead,
So many I love were not yet born.

Ogden Nash


or perhaps Cicely Herbert ("Everything changes. We plant trees for those born later...") https://books.google.co.uk/...%20later&f=false

next question?


In Reply To
Is the quality of the verse good enough to call Bilbo a “Poet”?


I don't know. Is he fond of bananas? (a Wendy Cope reference).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 5:02pm

Post #3 of 14 (4207 views)
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W: I think I can only say: You are the very model of a modern Middle-earther :) [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a Galdor & Sauron quote, if I'm not mistaken...

But the major general knows nothing useful: quite unlike squire!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 22 2015, 5:10pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 8:31pm

Post #4 of 14 (4194 views)
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Departure night [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien originally had Departure Night on November 25, then moved it 1 month because too much of the story was happening in winter. He can't possibly have failed to notice what day December 25 is, so my guess is that it amused him to think it was just another day in pre-Christian Middle-earth.

Sauron's eyes in the sky: The Fellowship is bothered by crows and then the thing that blocks out the stars and moves fast against the wind (whatever that is). Either might be Sauron's.

Epigrams: "The best way to win an epigrams contest is not to take part." I win!
Elrond speaks last: but really we're seeing the difference between the two cultures. Gimli would probably like contracts, similar to the one Bilbo got from Thorin. Elrond might remember the unexpected consequences of the oath of Feanor: and moreover it turns out that several of the Fellowship should not accompany Frodo to the bitter end (as they might if bound by oath).

Aragon might be hunched over sick to the stomach, but it's also a posture to block out the world while marshalling all your mental and spiritual resources. That's what I'd read him as doing. Why does "only Elrond " understand? What about Arwen?

Boromir sounds his horn because it's necessary for his honour. And it allows Elrond to foreshadow the two other times it will be heard.

The Fellowship are wearing D&D backpacks, which can hold an arbitrary amount of stuff.
Wink

Sam brings out small items of his master's in triumph only "off camera": we don't officially know about Frodo's teddy.

Sam's inventory: we discussed earlier whether the "not enough I'll warrant " was sam's thought, or an editorial comment. I just failed to find that discussion: will try again later, perhaps. I think Sam comes across as being (or trying to be) the Organised Hobbit.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 22 2015, 8:42pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Apr 22 2015, 9:16pm

Post #5 of 14 (4189 views)
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Farewell, The Twinkling Homely House.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
Although the date is not given in the text more exactly than “near the end of December”, the Appendices tell us the departure takes place on Christmas Night – i.e., on the night of December 25.
L. Why?

On December the 25th they say,
The Fellowship went questing away.
No way could they tell
As they left Rivendell
That for us it would be Christmas day.

er, Christmas day ‘Eve’…



In Reply To
M. Does this ever happen – do we ever perceive the presence of the spies of Sauron on the Company as it journeys south from Rivendell?

DUCK! No not “ducks”! Bird, bird, bird – “Bird is the word.”
"Cry 'HAVOC!', and let slip the CREBAIN of war".


In Reply To
The “spare food and clothes and blankets” for nine people are “laden on a pony”, good old Bill. That seems like a major overload for one pony.
P. Are any of the company wearing backpacks?

NO! Just FANNYPACKS! Poor old Bill. I think FRODO carried his own HANDKERCHIEF and a change of SHORTS, which were needed later…


In Reply To
What do we learn from it about Frodo and Sam; about hobbits; about Middle-earth?

They liked to EAT (more salt please) and SMOKE (Old Toby WHEN they could get IT) and THEY don’t like PONIES named BILL.


In Reply To
T. Does Sam ever, in the story, bring out a small belonging of his master in triumph when it’s called for?

YES! An EXTRA change of SHORTS which were badly needed at the TIME!


In Reply To
V. Who wins in the epigram contest, Elrond or Gimli?

”And it’s GIMLI . . .by a single SATIRE! YAY! “KHAZAD ai-menu!"

 photo fd_4.png


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Apr 22 2015, 11:22pm

Post #6 of 14 (4176 views)
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2.1E [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think we can. We do have half of it in one of the Home books, and we don't really know if that is the accurate one, but the rest must remain in our imaginations. Or in Fanfic, but as we all know, I doubt if many will want to read a complete version of Beren and Luthien in prose if some of it isn't precisiley Tolkien. So, I think it's in our imaginations it is.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 23 2015, 1:40pm

Post #7 of 14 (4182 views)
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"What is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?" [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Technically speaking, isn’t it quite difficult to “reforge” a sword that has been broken into pieces?

Not really, but it is time consuming, expensive (okay, so it's difficult), and produces a sword with a visible seam that isn’t pretty. The last is thought to be why historical examples of reforged swords are rare: Over time people kept the pretty swords and threw away the ugly ones. (And the seam can be a weak point, but can also turn out to be the strongest part of the reforged sword. You never know.)

But usually broken swords were remade into daggers or knives.


B. Can you interpret all the many details of the description of Anduril at its creation?

I’d suppose the Sun and Moon are the lamps Ormal and Illuin. The seven stars are the seven palanitrs brought in seven of the nine ships that Elenedil and Isildur sailed in to escape Numenor. Coincidentally they seem to correspond to the Remmirath, the Netted Stars, which are in turn apparently what today we call the Pleiades, or The Seven Sisters. Curiously, on a good night many people can see nine stars in the Pleiades. Indeed, in olden times the cluster was used as sort of an eye test by warrior castes, with the weak-eyed only being able to see five or six, while the more eagle eyed might see nine, eleven, or even up to sixteen individual stars.

In the Middle Ages the sun and crescent were associated with Byzantium. (BTW, back then the moon crescent was usually portrayed as being with the open part up like a cup, rather than to the side.)

From Letter #131

But in the north Arnor dwindles, is broken into petty princedoms, and finally vanishes. The remnant of the Númenóreans becomes a hidden wandering Folk, and though their true line of Kings of Isildur's heirs never fails this is known only in the House of Elrond. In the south Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle Age, a kind of proud, venerable, but increasingly impotent Byzantium.

As for carving runes into blades, that was done during Anglo-Saxon days:

Victory runes you must know
if you will have victory,
and carve the on the sword's hilt,
some on the grasp
and some on the inlay,
and name Tyr twice.

- Sigrdrífumál, The Poetic Edda


Usually the runes were carved into the blade then copper or silver wire was hammered into the grooves, though gold is mentioned in Beowulf:

On clear gold labels let into the cross-piece
it was rightly told in runic letters,
set down and sealed, for whose sake it was
that the sword was first forged, that finest of iron,
spiral-hilted, serpent-bladed.


The runes might spell out a message as simple as “This blade belongs to Bob” or “Ted made this blade”, or as involved as a prayer or a magic spell.


Pippin, we will see, is famously directionally challenged and never paid much attention to the journey he had signed up for, even compared to Merry:
[Pippin] wished now that he had learned more in Rivendell, and looked more at maps and things; but in those days the plans for the journey seemed to be in more competent hands, and he had never reckoned with being cut off from Gandalf, or from Strider, and even from Frodo.
[Merry to Pippin:] ‘I don’t suppose you have much notion where we are; but I spent my time at Rivendell rather better. We are walking west along the Entwash...’ – LotR III.3, bolds by squire.


One wonders how much the timelessness of Faerie comes into play with this lack. I remember summers as a kid, with a stack of books to read, and a list of things to do, and maps of places to go, yet somehow September (or for adults, Monday, or for Rip Van Winkle, a hundred years) rolls around and you realize you spent most of your time pretty “unproductively”. But fun.


But here in Rivendell we see that Frodo, too, left the “maps and things” aspects of his life-and-death quest “in more competent hands”.

That’s usually a big mistake, especially for non-working spouses.


C. Later in the story when, if ever, do we see the consequences of Frodo spending more time with Bilbo than with Gandalf and Aragorn in this final crucial week of planning the journey?

Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
-Harvey (1950)

It’s neither esoteric wisdom nor marital puissance that helps Frodo succeed, but good old hobbity common sense, goodness, and manners. His success in dealing with Galadriel and Faramir, and even Boromir and Gollum, and of course Sam, are primarily because of what he learned at Bilbo’s knee.


D. Why wait until the last week, after eight weeks of rest and healing, to visit the Hall of Fire and hear the lay of Beren and Luthien?

It’s apparently has a fixed position in some sort of rotation “among many tales”, kinda like how West African bards, or “griots”, supposedly have to relate their memorized tales, folklore, myths, and histories in a specific order, though some say Alex Haley wasn’t exactly truthful about that, but James Earl Jones played him and would he lie to you?.


E. Where in the various unpublished works can we read the “Lay of Beren and Luthien” as it was sung in the Hall of Fire to the hobbits?

Probably in the unpublished unpublished works like Barely Started Tales. (I think maybe BS IV.)


2.2 Bilbo Passes the Torch to Frodo
Summary: On the day of departure, Bilbo gives Frodo Sting and the mithril mail-shirt. Bilbo blesses Frodo and contemplates his own future, limited by age and infirmity.

When Bilbo gives Sting to Frodo, he easily buries it deep in a seasoned beam of hardwood, and Frodo “accepts it”. I think it’s Verlyn Flieger who points out Tolkien’s omission of who, exactly, pulls the darn thing back out.
F. Is this meant to be a buried reference to the Arthurian legend of the Sword in the Stone: that he who can free a buried sword from its prison is the one who will be king (or in Frodo’s case, perhaps, save the kingdom)?


I could mention the Icelandic Egil's Saga, but I won’t, so I’ll go with noWizardme’s Die Walküre citation.


Bilbo says the dwarf-mail is both pretty, and “useful”.
G. When did it prove useful to Bilbo in The Hobbit?


Saved his ribs from when he was an unconscious and invisible speed-bump during the Battle of Four/Five/Six/Seven/Any-Number-Within-Reason Armies.


Bilbo dresses Frodo for his quest in arms and armor.
H. Is Bilbo acting as legator or squire here?


It’s better than those Little Lord Fauntleroy outfits Bilbo used to dress him in. (I won’t even mention the Buster Brown suits.)


I. What is the main idea of Bilbo’s song?

Morningside,
An old man died,
And no one cried.
He surely died alone.
And truth is sad,
For not a child would claim the gift he had.
The words he carved became his epitaph:
'For my children'.

-Neil Diamond


J. Is the quality of the verse good enough to call Bilbo a “Poet”?

He’s really the one major poet we know of from Middle-earth. Both his original works and his translations of Elvish poetry are pretty much the only surviving examples.

So yeah.


Suppose that most traditional-style poetry in our world with a theme of mortality tends to invoke some kind of image of an afterlife, or of the concept of divine judgment. This poem , I suggest, does neither – in keeping with Tolkien’s decision to forgo any suggestion of religion in the cultures of Middle-earth.
K. How then does the poem work as a meditation on the “hobbit condition” – substituted, of course, for the “human condition”?


Compare Bilbo’s poems about lonely old age with Sam’s. Oh, wait. That’s right. Sam was too busy with kids and grandkids and great grandkids to write about being lonely. Life was a bed of Rosie’s for him.

Despite our delight in hobbit adventures, their natural condition is a domestic one.

Confirmed bachelors Bilbo and Frodo were indeed odd birds.


Although the date is not given in the text more exactly than “near the end of December”, the Appendices tell us the departure takes place on Christmas Night – i.e., on the night of December 25.
L. Why?


They wanted to avoid the expenses for presents for Boxing Day?


Elrond warns the company to beware the “servants of Sauron”: “spies on foot and wing”, so that they must be wary “even of the sky above you”.
M. Does this ever happen – do we ever perceive the presence of the spies of Sauron on the Company as it journeys south from Rivendell?


That’s how good they were!

(Though frankly I think they were as much chimeras as those servants of the Enemy who looked fair but felt foul.)


N. What is the point of the scene where Boromir blows his horn, so that everyone in Rivendell who heard it “sprang to their feet”?

Well, this is pretty much poised to be the ultimate battle of the time, the Ragnarok for the Third Age. And in the Poetic Edda poem Völuspá Heimdall sounds the horn Gjallarhorn during Ragnarok:

Fast move the sons of Mim and fate
Is heard in the note of the Gjallarhorn;
Loud blows Heimdall, the horn is aloft,
In fear quake all who on Hel-roads are.


(Note horns usually double as a drinking vessel so this may also be a comment on Boromir’s sobriety.)

Such horns can also be known as “olifants” due to their construction from elephant ivory.

In The Song of Roland, at the battle at Roncevaux Roland sounds his olifant to let Charlemagne know “We’re over here, and we’re all going to die gloriously!”

Count Roland presses the horn against his mouth;
He grasps it hard, and sounds a mighty blast.
High are the hills, that great voice reaches far-
They hear it echo full thirty leagues around.


And just the opposite of Boromir at Amon Hen, it is not the Olifant that finally bursts, but Roland:

His temples broken from sounding his great horn,
Longing to know if Charles is on his way,
Weakly, once more, he blows the Oliphant.


Interestingly, the dramatic tension during the song's campaign is between the recklessly courageous Roland, and his companion the poised and wise Olivier. (Boromir and Aragorn were inspired by the Carolingian cycle? Horrors!)


O. How did Gandalf get hold of Glamdring, given that he most recently escaped from Saruman’s prison where they would have stripped him of weapons?

Old Istari mind trick: “You would not part an old man from his walking stick. Or his crackerjack ring. Or his carpentry foe-hammer. Or his signaling beacon which just happens to be in the shape of an eagle.”

“No problem! Would you also like the Keys of Barad-dûr? Or the crowns of seven kings and the rods of the Five Wizards? How about a nice paiir of boots?”

“Maybe later. By the way, you know Merry and Pippin? Those *are* the hobbits you’re looking for. Move along…”

( I’m beginning to think The Voice of Saruman has nothing on The Voice of Gandalf.)


The “spare food and clothes and blankets” for nine people are “laden on a pony”, good old Bill. That seems like a major overload for one pony.

Merry just had one pack pony for the journey through the Old Forest to Bree. Bill, still in poor condition, carried baggage from Bree through the Wild to Rivendell. After meeting Glorfindel the pony is laden down with even more of the others’ burdens for speed. (However the hobbits begin to be outdistanced by the others, so I’d say it only makes sense now for the bigger members of the Fellowship, as well as the doughty Dwarf, to carry a larger part of the burden so as to equal out everybody’s paces.) Interestingly, by the time they leave Lorien they seem to have quite a bit of “goods” in their boats so the later portage around the rapids becomes difficult.

All in all they seem to tend to carry a bunch of junk around because both at the Gates of Moria and at Amon Hen they have to sort through their stuff and seem to leave quite a big pile behind.


P. Are any of the company wearing backpacks?

At the Chamber of Mazarbul Aragorn tells them to keep their packs on as long as possible as things begin to heat up. As they leave Lothlorien it’s mentioned that the Fellowship’s packs are in the last boat with Legolas and Gimli. And after Frodo leaves the Fellowship at Amon Hen Aragorn notes that two packs are missing, and that one is clearly Sam’s as his was “rather large and heavy”.

But as for now, dunno.


Q. What language does Tolkien use to craft the emotional impact of this moment?

English?


Aragorn has “his head bowed to his knees” – the traditional pose of one about to be sick to ones stomach.

Actually I’d go with prayer:

Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who am I, O Lord GOD? and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
- 2 Samuel 7:18


R. Elrond knows,…

Well, yes, Elrond is kinda Nathan to Aragorn's David.

And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.
-2 Samuel 7:3


… but do any of the others take note of this extraordinary attitude of Aragorn’s?

I’m kinda struck how soldiers before setting out on a perilous mission might stand, sit, or pace around, lost in their own thoughts, not really noticing how others are preparing themselves. If they do see something embarrassing, they’ll never mention it. Ever.


…his chief treasure, his cooking gear; and the little box of salt that he always carried and refilled when he could; a good supply of pipe-weed (but not near enough, I’ll warrant); flint and tinder; woollen hose: linen; various small belongings of his master’s that Frodo had forgotten and Sam had stowed to bring them out in triumph when they were called for. -- LotR II.3

S. What do we learn from it about Frodo and Sam; about hobbits; about Middle-earth?


Basically Sam is trying to bring along a hobbit hole, “and that means comfort!”


T. Does Sam ever, in the story, bring out a small belonging of his master in triumph when it’s called for?

Uhhhh…..


U. How does the writing of Elrond’s speech create the appropriate drama for this moment in the story?

Mellow drama?


V. Who wins in the epigram contest, Elrond or Gimli?

Gimli. Elrond suddenly quickly changes the subject, no doubt because Gimli is starting to heft his axe.


Can’t resist:
W. Comment if you dare on Tolkien’s use of Victorian (i.e., not Medieval, time-hallowed, scholarly, etc.) dramatic conventions:


Over the past two or three months Elrond no doubt has made many parting speeches to scouts and messengers, not to mention the constant stream of Elvish parties departing for the Grey Havens. With all the repetition he’s doing a lot of “gagging” with the Fellowship. I wonder if he’s even halfway aware of what all he’s saying or whether it’s all autopilot.

As for most of the Fellowship, various members seem to step up, strike a dramatic pose, make their point, then retreat back upstage.

Speaking of retreating back into the shadows:

Many others of Elrond's household stood in the shadows and watched them go, bidding them farewell with soft voices. There was no laughter, and no song or music. At last they turned away and faded silently into the dusk.

Creepy!!!

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 23 2015, 1:43pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 6:18pm

Post #8 of 14 (4156 views)
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New Glamdring Theory [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf stuck it in some handy wooden post before entering Orthanc. Seems like there's hardly a tree or beam that doesn't have some magic blade stuck into it! Smile

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 9:04pm

Post #9 of 14 (4133 views)
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Maybe the moth took Glamdring [In reply to] Can't Post

while the Eagle rescued Gandalf? It had to carry something


hanne
Lorien

Apr 25 2015, 2:54pm

Post #10 of 14 (4081 views)
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Dec 25 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well no one else has brought it up so I will mention; forgive me if this is too obvious. The 25th of December and of March (Lady Day) were significant days in England for centuries and Tolkien must have known this, since the main quest (the part when they knew their objective) ran from one to the other. The wikipedia article to read is Quarter Days: rent was due, school terms started, and accounts reckoned etc. From this point of view Frodo is starting with a clean slate; he is now a willing volunteer. He's also graduated to a new level of adventurer, ready for far more difficult challenges to come.

Christmas of course also is pretty near the solstice, which has been significant for millennia. The sun heads north, daylight waxes rather than waning, hope is rekindled. From this point of view Frodo's quest might represent the first real hope against Sauron that middle earth has had for a long time, and the brave decision to attempt the quest rather than go into hiding represents light pushing back against darkness. I think authors are more fond of this kind of plotting than readers, though.

As a reader, I just think the Elves had finally finished their work for Father Christmas and were at last free to stage a dramatic farewell! :)


squire
Half-elven


Apr 25 2015, 3:56pm

Post #11 of 14 (4081 views)
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Ho ho ho. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info on the many meanings of Dec. 25. I never heard of Quarter Days. As far as I understand it, Christmas originally was on the solstice for the very reason you say, of symbolizing the return of light, but over the centuries the two dates have somehow separated a bit.

I love your comment that "authors are more fond of this kind of plotting than readers": do you think that's why Tolkien did not give it a specific date in the reading ("near the end of December"), but then did so in the Appendix? Or did he perhaps feel that specific dates would seem too contemporary a way of thinking about the story in the course of telling it?



squire online:
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hanne
Lorien

Apr 25 2015, 5:28pm

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Re: Ho ho ho [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's the Quarter Days as a link (I hope): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_days I don't know why Bilbo's birthday didn't get to be the Michaelmas quarter day! but that one is perhaps the farthest from the solstice/equinox dates. At Oxford, Tolkien would also have been used to academic terms that traditionally ran in sync (more or less) with these dates: Oct-Dec, Jan-Mar and Apr-June.

I like your thinking about why Tolkien may have only put the date in the Appendix - both ideas seem very plausible to me. If I'd seen Dec 25 in the text Rivendell would forever seem like a toymaker's workshop for sure! :) I'm sure I read somewhere here that he worked out specific dates because he always gets the phase of the moon right; another calendar detail that the reader need not notice.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 25 2015, 9:05pm

Post #13 of 14 (4054 views)
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Thanks for contributing this: I had never thought about 25 Dec as being one of the quarter days !// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 11:36am

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Fastening belts [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Technically speaking, isn’t it quite difficult to “reforge” a sword that has been broken into pieces?
How many pieces was it broken to?
But I bow to Darkstone's superior knowledge and/or research.

B. Can you interpret all the many details of the description of Anduril at its creation?
I do not have the book with me here, so no.

C. Later in the story when, if ever, do we see the consequences of Frodo spending more time with Bilbo than with Gandalf and Aragorn in this final crucial week of planning the journey?
Like with the Caradhras-Moria debate later on, I am pretty sure they wouldn't have held any important discsussion in front of him.

D. Why wait until the last week, after eight weeks of rest and healing, to visit the Hall of Fire and hear the lay of Beren and Luthien?
It was probably told/recited/sung before, but the hobbits fell asleep in the middle.

It took them time to get used to the Elvish style.

E. Where in the various unpublished works can we read the “Lay of Beren and Luthien” as it was sung in the Hall of Fire to the hobbits?
Is this a riddle?
In HoME vol. III, The Lays of Beleriand, you can read two versions of it, as well as CS Lewis' commentary on the first version.
But neither has the complete story. Perhaps they reflect when the hobbits fell asleep. In which case, they only heard in full the prose version of the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion, on which the published version is based.

F. Is this meant to be a buried reference to the Arthurian legend of the Sword in the Stone: that he who can free a buried sword from its prison is the one who will be king (or in Frodo’s case, perhaps, save the kingdom)?
I doubt it.
But does elven-wood self-recover from the stab of the elven-blade?

G. When did it prove useful to Bilbo in The Hobbit?
Thorin told Bilbo it would defend him from arrows, which is why he threatened to sting his miserable feet. Does that count?
And the accompanying helmet saved Bilbo from that crashing stone from in the Battle of Five Armies (which Anarion's crown didn't do at the Siege of Barad-dur). Oddly enough, it is never mentioned.
Perhaps it was ruined while saving the hobbit's skull.

H. Is Bilbo acting as legator or squire here?
As a doting uncle.

I. What is the main idea of Bilbo’s song?
Resignation.

J. Is the quality of the verse good enough to call Bilbo a “Poet”?
I don't consider it of high quality.
But Bilbo really seems to compose most of the poems in FotR, so he does seem to be angling for the title of a Poet Laureate.

K. How then does the poem work as a meditation on the “hobbit condition” – substituted, of course, for the “human condition”?
I don't think it deals with mortality. Old age, perhaps.
In which case, I prefer The Quiet American.

L. Why?
He was influenced by The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

M. Does this ever happen – do we ever perceive the presence of the spies of Sauron on the Company as it journeys south from Rivendell?
The Red eye? The wisp of cloud which moves fast and not with the wind? Whoever sent the Wargs?
We don't know.

N. What is the point of the scene where Boromir blows his horn, so that everyone in Rivendell who heard it “sprang to their feet”?

To show him as a jerk.
Alternatively, to show how he despise going as a thief at night (on Amon Hen he will claim he is not a thief of a tracker).
Also, to show the theme of defiance. Horns work better as a challange than Gandalf's words - both on the Bridge of Khazad-dum and the Gate of Minas Tirith.

O. How did Gandalf get hold of Glamdring, given that he most recently escaped from Saruman’s prison where they would have stripped him of weapons?
The only answer within reason is that he did not take Glamdring on the way to Isengard.
But why wouldn't he? Umm...
Probably JRRT was caught napping; or else he counted on the reader not noticing this.

P. Are any of the company wearing backpacks?
Yes, all of them.

But speaking of Bill's burden - it surely becomes worse later on in this chapter, when he has to carry Gimli too.

Q. What language does Tolkien use to craft the emotional impact of this moment?
Contrasting Bill's high spirits with Sam's despondency. This description of Bill as if he is responding will be repeated twice - when adding a bundle of faggots to his burden on Caradhras' knees, and before the Doors of Moria.

R. Elrond knows, but do any of the others take note of this extraordinary attitude of Aragorn’s?
They are discreet. Or taken up in their own thoughts.
Probably the latter.

S. What do we learn from it about Frodo and Sam; about hobbits; about Middle-earth?
Frodo seems to rely on Sam for everything.
This explains his words to Elrond: "I will go with Sam". How will he mange without him?
He tried to escape once; but that was without considering how in Middle0earth will he brush his teeth.

Hobbits love cooking; and seem to think that their local salt is the best in the world.

Middle-earth has no matches.

T. Does Sam ever, in the story, bring out a small belonging of his master in triumph when it’s called for?
In the Tower of Cirith Ungol, he brings out the Ring...

But nothing that he packed in this chapter.

U. How does the writing of Elrond’s speech create the appropriate drama for this moment in the story?
It makes them all eager to go, and begin talking normally.

V. Who wins in the epigram contest, Elrond or Gimli?
Despite what Darkstone says, Gimli does not win. Neither does he with Legolas before Moria, Boromir at Sarn Gebir, or Eomer.
He just loves to pick fights, even if he will lose them.

W. Comment if you dare on Tolkien’s use of Victorian (i.e., not Medieval, time-hallowed, scholarly, etc.) dramatic conventions:
I don't dare.


 
 

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