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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Was Bofur Left in Laketown On Purpose?"

KRRouse
The Shire

Apr 25 2015, 2:51am

Post #1 of 18 (2855 views)
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"Was Bofur Left in Laketown On Purpose?" Can't Post

A fan theory suggesting that Thorin ordered the company to leave Bofur behind in DoS because he believed it was too risky to bring Bofur to Erebor.

http://whatsnewwithkru.blogspot.com/...town-on-purpose.html


CathrineB
Rohan


Apr 25 2015, 7:42am

Post #2 of 18 (2726 views)
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Fun read [In reply to] Can't Post

That was a fun read. I love reading such theories and studies :)

I don't think the reason of it was anything beyond leaving dwarves we care about behinnd in a town that will burn, but I'd love to be wrong in this. Because frankly I want generally more storylines for the dwarves and Bofur is one of my top favorite ones. By the sounds of it a few dwarves did have some storyline and moments in BotfA so it seems like a whoooole lot of important things were cut. Mad


marary
Lorien

Apr 25 2015, 9:45am

Post #3 of 18 (2676 views)
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thanks for sharing! [In reply to] Can't Post

That was a really lovely, in-depth post.

Never considered Bofur as a "loose-canon", though it's seeming pretty well-evidenced after that post. I will say that if Bofur is a loose-canon, someone like Kili is a loose-asteroid. (Kili has nepotism on his side where Bofur doesn't.)

Here's hoping to see more of this character in the EE!


DjU
Lorien

Apr 25 2015, 3:12pm

Post #4 of 18 (2581 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

Quite simply no.

Bofur was left behind in Laketown because James Nesbitt had a scheduled 3 months break to film a second series of the ITV show 'Monroe'.


SafeUnderHill
Rohan

Apr 25 2015, 6:42pm

Post #5 of 18 (2533 views)
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Erm... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Quite simply no.

Bofur was left behind in Laketown because James Nesbitt had a scheduled 3 months break to film a second series of the ITV show 'Monroe'.


You realise the fan theory is about why the character of Bofur is left behind, is for the character in the fictional movieverse?

James Nesbitt not being able to do the shoot is the practical reason behind the script changes to not include Bofur in Erebor, but there will still be an explanation in the story itself (the the fan has speculated about).

For example, in FOTR there is a scene where Sam drowns. The reason why this ended up in the film was because they cut out an uruk hai attack sequence from the scene, and changed it into the scene we ended up with. However, in the movieverse the explanation is simply that sam couldn't swim but didn't want Frodo to leave.


(This post was edited by SafeUnderHill on Apr 25 2015, 6:44pm)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Apr 25 2015, 7:29pm

Post #6 of 18 (2513 views)
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uruk-hai [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought they never ended up shooting that part of the uruk-hai attack.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Apr 25 2015, 8:50pm

Post #7 of 18 (2480 views)
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I think it was much simpler [In reply to] Can't Post

Intriguing blog. Though I think - in terms of storyline - the reason Bofur was left behind was much simpler. Early on the blogger says Thorin was in a rush to get to the Mountain because they have a deadline to meet. A deadline the quest was riding on. If it was missed then the all their efforts would've been for nothing. So, based on this Bofur was left behind because the Company simply could not wait on him.

Not because he's overlooked. Bilbo inquires about his absence. Nor because he overstepped Thorin's authority in the past. I'm not sure the path to Rivendell scenario is the best example of Bofur's "rebellious" nature. He did not know where the path led, only Gandalf knew, and it was either follow the path or return to the plain where they just escaped the Orcs. The choice seems pretty obvious.

Also, it's true the screenwriters wanted some of the Dwarves to remain behind in Lake-town, and Bofur was one they specifically wanted to experience Smaug's attack firsthand. (Not sure why). Philippa Boyens mentions this in the commentaries of DOS. This meant the screenwriters had to come up with a reason why some of them would stay back. For Fili, Kili, and Oin the reason was Kili's injury. Considering Bofur has had little to no interaction with Kili up to that moment - compared to Bilbo - and that he has no medical knowledge, what reason would he stay behind? Still, the screenwriters wanted him to remain in Lake-town, and they accomplished this in the what I would say a very simplistic and cliché way. He over slept, probably from having one too many, and was left behind.

I realize this isn't as exciting and as in-depth as what the blogger proposes, but IMHO, it was that simple.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 12:08am

Post #8 of 18 (2417 views)
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THREE more angles to look AT..? [In reply to] Can't Post

1. They split up the Company for "Empathy Reasons".
Having those four stay allowed the audience to invest
in the Fate of Laketown, since we barely know Bard & family yet?

2. IT seems logical that Bofur was needed to run around looking for the
Anthelas..Almost getting KILLED by an Ors, while doing that...
Neither Fili nor Oin would leave Kili's side, SSOoo Bofur got more
ScreenTime, TOO!

3. While writing DoS, they were Already aware
Jimmy Nesbitt was a real
HIT with the audiences,
TOO!

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"

(This post was edited by Bombadil on Apr 26 2015, 12:10am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 12:26am

Post #9 of 18 (2412 views)
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POST SCRIPT..Umm? Forgot this.. [In reply to] Can't Post

ASK yourself?..How many times did Thorin say...

"I Can't risk this Quest over One Dead Dwarve,
Even my own Kin?"

"I Can't risk this Quest over one Dead Burgler"

There are more times, {Bom thinks}
BUT...it Shows THORIN's Single-Minded
GOAL?

We was willing to SACRIFICE
just about ANYONE..

Which? of course plays into his Madness..
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2015, 7:03am

Post #10 of 18 (2364 views)
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I think PB's comments refer to the cut scene.. [In reply to] Can't Post

between Bilbo and Bofur as Bilbo is sneaking out of Erebor with the Arkenstone, that MF mentioned in an interview last year...hopefully we'll get this reinserted in the EE.


In Reply To


Also, it's true the screenwriters wanted some of the Dwarves to remain behind in Lake-town, and Bofur was one they specifically wanted to experience Smaug's attack firsthand. (Not sure why). Philippa Boyens mentions this in the commentaries of DOS. This meant the screenwriters had to come up with a reason why some of them would stay back. For Fili, Kili, and Oin the reason was Kili's injury. Considering Bofur has had little to no interaction with Kili up to that moment - compared to Bilbo - and that he has no medical knowledge, what reason would he stay behind? Still, the screenwriters wanted him to remain in Lake-town, and they accomplished this in the what I would say a very simplistic and cliché way. He over slept, probably from having one too many, and was left behind.





"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


DjU
Lorien

Apr 26 2015, 4:20pm

Post #11 of 18 (2275 views)
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Erm... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Quite simply no.

Bofur was left behind in Laketown because James Nesbitt had a scheduled 3 months break to film a second series of the ITV show 'Monroe'.


You realise the fan theory is about why the character of Bofur is left behind, is for the character in the fictional movieverse?

James Nesbitt not being able to do the shoot is the practical reason behind the script changes to not include Bofur in Erebor, but there will still be an explanation in the story itself (the the fan has speculated about).


You do realise that the availability of James Nesbitt was more or less the sole reason for him being left in Lake-town - the original version would have not had him with Fili, Kili and Oin. The reason - or any made up idea - in the 'story' is merely incidental.

James Nesbitt even mentions that they may have even forgotten about the planned break and had to quickly rewrite the script. This is one of the reasons it is potentially a little more contrived than the other three's reason to be there - he was only there because Nesbitt's schedule would have stopped him being around for a big chunk of the Erebor filming. I frankly feel that anything mentioned in the 'fan theory' is probably even more contrived, than just accepting it was merely filming restrictions and limitations altering the script.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2015, 5:58pm

Post #12 of 18 (2252 views)
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Thank you for the Facts, Instead of conjecture...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


He is a wizard, you know!
The Shire


Apr 26 2015, 11:18pm

Post #13 of 18 (2233 views)
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what's wrong with conjecture? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"You're a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I'm very fond of you, but you're only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all."


Kerewyn
Rohan


Apr 27 2015, 11:45am

Post #14 of 18 (2198 views)
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Great blog [In reply to] Can't Post

Her previous pieces are equally thoughtful and nicely written, with quite a few on TH. I'm just sifting through her archives now.



"Then the bells shall ring in gladness at the Mountain King's return... but all shall fail in sadness, and the lake will shine and burn."


dormouse
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 12:50pm

Post #15 of 18 (2193 views)
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That's ingeneous - a fun read... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and very well put together.

I dont suppose for a minute that any of this was in the minds of the scriptwriters. As others have pointed out, the real reason was very mundane. But what I really like about it is that despite this it seems to fit; it works as a storyline. It seems so much more creative and enjoyable to me to imagine how an unexpected twist or storyline might work in the context of the wider story than it is to shout "wrong" and throw (verbal) bricks at it!



Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 27 2015, 1:50pm

Post #16 of 18 (2187 views)
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Well I don't think so, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

just to play along with this. It's pretty clear that Bofur had a few too many the night before - and I am SO disappointed that we didn't get another Bofur table-dance scene at that party, really thought we would get one. (Guess Nesbitt's filming schedule prevented that, too badTongue) So I can see Thorin being so disgusted by this drunken behavior when they are running out of time that he just thinks "To heck with him, if he doesn't wake up we'll leave him behind." And the other dwarves, his brother & cousin, well they're probably a bit more used to following orders and/or are just as anxious to make that deadline as Thorin is. No I don't think they forgot about him, they probably are well aware of his penchant for drinking & are just following Thorin's orders - no conspiracy here. And obviously if Thorin is willing to cut his own nephew loose to save time (which some people find unforgivable) then of course he'd cut a passed-out drunk loose, too.

On a side note, I think it did help the story to have a few dwarves in Laketown during Smaug's attack, in fact they probably should have played up on that more. Although Bard & his kids pull on the heartstrings, we just haven't spent as much time with them as we have with the dwarves. I mentioned this in another post, but we've seen all the dwarves in all three movies, and we're more invested in what they are doing. We don't know hardly anyone else in Laketown, I mean the Master & Alfrid but who really cares about them? We're not even supposed to like them! Plus the Laketown 4 give the other dwarves even more reason to be upset about what is happening. It's not just those poor souls, it's Gloin and Bombur's brothers. And they do a good job of showing how upset they are in the few seconds the camera zooms in on them. Contrasted with Thorin knowing both nephews are down there, but he's too fixated on Erebor and the gold to even watch. Some people have said Thorin looks a little upset, but honestly I don't see that at all. I think he's already changed at this point in time, but that's another thing we could endlessly debate on TORn.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


dormouse
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 2:19pm

Post #17 of 18 (2178 views)
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Hmm - OK, let's debate it... ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen discussion of Thorin's attitude right at the beginning of the film before but couldn't join in because it was months since I'd seen the film and I couldn't really remember exactly how he looked - only my impression of it. So when someone posted that he was smiling and was more interested in Erebor I couldn't really argue (much Angelic).

But now I've seen it again I'm sure that when we first see his face his eyes are swimming - as if he'd be crying if he weren't a big tough dwarf king - and there's no hint of a smile that I can see. And as the next time we see him he's striding around on the treasure talking about 'treasure beyond grief, beyond sorrow' (or something like that) I'm certain that in those opening moments he has turned his back on Laketown because he can't bear to watch, and in his mind his nephews are already dead. I reckon there's a missing scene just before with the line "Everything I did I did for them", meaning Fili and Kili. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! Wink

But I agree with you completely that it was necessary for the film to leave some dwarves in Laketown, so that the audience (and, for that matter, the other dwarves) had some emotional investment there.


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Apr 28 2015, 9:37pm

Post #18 of 18 (2035 views)
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A mix of all these [In reply to] Can't Post

If Jimmy Nesbitt couldn't make free of himself during the Erebor chase, the question is : did this happen before his decision, or after ?

While nothing in the scenario is getting hurt by the absence of Bofur in Erebor, the presence of Jimmy Nesbitt in Laketown makes perfectly sense because... he happens to be the father of 'Bard's daughters' !
How then could he be let far from his own children ? He had to stay in Laketown, for far more important reasons than the Athelas. For instance, I think Ori could have taken his place as well.

If James Nesbitt had to stay in Laketown, then he could be let free for an involvement outside, during the Erebor Stuff. All the affair may have turned out from this side.

So his fiesta sleep might feel a little bit forced, but that is not IMHO the most problematic aspect of the leaving sequence in Laketown : the main plot hole is that the dwarves could never reach Erebor in only one day.
For if they could, Thorin in the first hand would never have allowed his followers to get into some fiesta with humans just the evening before.

The fiesta in Laketown is written in the book, so it somewhat had to get into the movie too, but the main internal motives of all those scenes, I think, is to get all the crew of the movie participate into a fiesta scene in Laketown.
They had so much a hard work to make it feel so alive and well...

PJ and Co know how to make a movie-making an adventure by itself, and those kind of things, the cameos and everything around, are fully part of the movie-process.

Might we lose in the process some tiny bits of storyline relevances ? Who cares really ?
Only three or four people out of that board have noticed that the trip from Esgaroth to Erebor is a little bit short.

And I think that's why the Erebor fiesta felt a little bit like it went partly cut off the movie.

About the four dwarves staying in town, the reason is quite obvious : they had to be there, because they are the only characters the audience already learned to know out of the two movies before !
The movie couldn't afford to have too many known laketowners dying by Smaug's wrath. Each of them would need to get introduced first.

But remember that indeed we have this. The Master of Laketown is a Laketowner. So is Alfrid. So is Braga the captain of the guards (what will happen to his widow ?). So are Bard's three children. And all of them are involved in the burning of the town, all of them flee, and two of them even die.

 
 

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