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**The Ring Goes South** - 3. Maps conveyed nothing to Sam’s mind, and all distances in these strange lands seemed so vast that he was quite out of his reckoning.

squire
Half-elven


Apr 24 2015, 9:16pm

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**The Ring Goes South** - 3. Maps conveyed nothing to Sam’s mind, and all distances in these strange lands seemed so vast that he was quite out of his reckoning. Can't Post

3.1 The Slow March to the South
Summary: They march south along the western foothills of the Misty Mountains, an obscure and unpopulated land that may help them remained unnoticed. The going is “cold and cheerless” due to icy winds off the mountains to their east and to their rule of walking by night. The hobbits perceive little progress, yet in fact the mountains by bending westward are more and more in view, and the country becomes rougher and more treacherous.



The Fellowship, by Abe Papakhian

A. If the land is both rough and barren, who makes the paths and for what purpose, and why does Aragorn know it so well he can find his way in the dark?

Here the never-ending East Wind plays a major role in the company’s discomfort if not outright misery.
B. Following the general weather patterns of Western Europe, shouldn’t the East Wind be an exceptional event to the west of the mountains?

C. After walking for many miles over rough country, why do they sleep “uneasily”?

Those darn paths, so “few and winding”! Into swamps, or to the edge of a cliff!
D. Doesn’t Aragorn know how to avoid such mistakes by now?

3.2 They Arrive in the Old Elvish Land of Hollin
Summary: After fourteen days and 135 miles of actual progress, the weather warms up and they arrive on the borders of Hollin, formerly Eregion, a country once inhabited by Elves. The Misty Mountains stand in front of them, in particular three peaks with the foremost like a red tooth tipped with snow. Gimli names the mountains and muses that they stand over the site of the fabulous underground Dwarvish kingdom of Khazad-dum, or Moria. Gandalf confirms that they are making for the pass called the Redhorn Gate, which leads over the mountains to the “secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then…” But rather than lay out the journey beyond, he simply says they are lucky the first stage of the journey is now over, and that they should rest an extra day in the wholesome land of Hollin.

Here we first encounter the Holly Trees that are the symbol of the old Elvish kingdom. We will see them again at the gates of Moria.
E. Is there any real-word, medieval-type symbolism associated with Holly, which enriches its use here?

F. Why no sign or mention here, or later in this chapter and the next, of Ost-in-Edhil, the “chief city of Eregion” according to the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales?


First View of Caradhras, by Eiszmann

Gandalf moderates everyone’s rapture at the warmer and clearer weather by saying it will be “perhaps all the more dangerous.” Frodo refuses to be squelched, saying “Dangerous or not, a real sunrise is mighty welcome.”
G. Is this impudence, growing confidence, or the secure knowledge on Frodo’s part that Gandalf believes that ‘All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word [unquenchable], and to correct them’?

Pippin shows some geographic awareness, and defends himself against the charge that he didn’t even try to learn about his coming journey. He says he simply has no “head” for maps, adding that Frodo does.
H. Why is Pippin the poster hobbit for this constant question of whether studying a map is necessary for embarking on a quest?


Part of the Map of Middle-earth, by Christopher Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings

Gimli steps forth and gives us one of his unaccustomed bursts of Dwarvish eloquence:
‘I need no map,’ said Gimli, who … was gazing out before him with a strange light in his deep eyes. ‘There is the land where our fathers worked of old, and we have wrought the image of those mountains into many works of metal and of stone, and into many songs and tales. They stand tall in our dreams: Baraz, Zirak, Shathur.
‘Only once before have I seen them from afar in waking life, but I know them and their names, for under them lies Khazad-dum, the Dwarrowdelf, that is now called the Black Pit, Moria in the Elvish tongue. Yonder stands Barazinbar, the Redhorn, cruel Caradhras; and beyond him are Silvertine and Cloudyhead: Celebdil the White, and Fanuidhol the Grey, that we call Zirak-zigil and Bundushathûr.
‘There the Misty Mountains divide, and between their arms lies the deep-shadowed valley which we cannot forget: Azanulbizar, the Dimrill Dale, which the Elves call Nanduhirion.’ –
LotR II.3

I. When would Gimli have seen them before, and need he have done so to justify this speech, since the iconic imagery is a mainstay of Dwarvish art?

J. Why state all the names in all three languages: Dwarvish, Elvish, Westron (Common Speech = English)?

I’m trying to remember if we have ever seen any Dwarvish names and/or vocabulary before, earlier in this story or more likely, in The Hobbit.
K. Is this the first time that Tolkien deploys Dwarvish?

Here we learn from Gandalf in quite a lot of detail what the next stage of the journey is to be: over the high mountain pass called the Redhorn Gate, down to the Dimrill Dale, “into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then –“ He refuses to answer Merry’s question about what comes after that, saying “we cannot look too far ahead”.
L. Does Gandalf (or, let’s face it, Tolkien) even know or have any idea?

M. What is the point of Legolas’ epitaph, spoken on behalf of the stones rather than the trees or grass, for the Elves of Eregion?

3.3 It’s Quiet … Too Quiet
Summary: While the company enjoys the holiday of an extra day in camp in Hollin, Aragorn is not content. He says it is very odd that the landscape is devoid of all living creatures. Gandalf takes the hint, noting that Aragorn is their designated expert guide to the country, and orders that the ‘party’ quiet down and stay alert.



The Company in Hollin, by Peter Xavier Price

N. Why is Hollin so silent and spooky, if Aragorn is correct?

O. Can Gandalf be right that the animals of Hollin would take note of, and be “surprised” by, four hobbits?

‘If you bring a Ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him, especially if the Ranger is Aragorn.’
P. Is this a common epigram among those in the know in Middle-earth?

3.4 Regiments of Black Crows Fly Overhead
Summary: Sam is on watch, but is joined by a restless Aragorn. The silence of the landscape, as the company naps at midday, is palpable. Then Sam notices a black cloud advancing from the South, and Aragorn confirms that it is no cloud, but flocks of black birds. He and Sam duck under a tree as a band of the birds pass overhead. Aragorn reports the incident to Gandalf, saying he is sure the land is being watched. Gandalf says that then there is little hope of passing the Redhorn Gate unobserved, but in the meantime they should at least keep moving, abandon their ‘holiday’, and get back on the road that night.



First Watch By Aragorn, by Peter Xavier Price

Then the silence grew until even Sam felt it. The breathing of the sleepers could be plainly heard. The swish of the pony’s tail and the occasional movements of his feet became loud noises. Sam could hear his own joints creaking, if he stirred. – LotR II.3

Q. Have you ever experienced silence in an outdoor setting the way it’s described here?

The birds give “one harsh croak” just as they pass overhead.
R. Does this mean the company was spotted?


Crows, by Pamela Shanteau

Aragorn identifies the birds as being from Dunland, and speculates without conviction that they might be “fleeing … some trouble away south”. He is sure, rather, that they are “spying out the land”.
S. Can crows fly in great flocks for hundreds of miles without feeding?

T. What are the consequences of this episode, later in the story?

3.5 No Fire and a Move Again By Night
Summary: Pippin whines that the news of another night-march just ruins his day. Gandalf, acting human for once, commiserates but says that sooner or later they will reach the warmer climates of the southlands. Sam, out of his depth, tells Frodo he had been hoping that Mount Caradhras was the Mount Doom that he committed to march to.

Pippin says he will miss the “real good meal tonight: something hot”.
U. What are the company’s provisions, and what have they been eating for 14 days, hot or cold?

Gandalf expresses a desire, not for hot food, but for warmer feet and a pipe to smoke.
W. Leaving aside the question of where his pipe is since he will be smoking it in Moria two days later, do comments like this serve to counter those fans who repeatedly refer to Gandalf as a “Maia” with cosmological powers?

Gandalf and Sam agree that their Southern destination should have a warmer climate than they’ve been experiencing so far.
V. Is there ever a time in LotR when, in fact, they seem to be enjoying a balmy clime?



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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2015, 11:28pm

Post #2 of 18 (5424 views)
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Thanks for the pictures! [In reply to] Can't Post

Whilst I am not a movie-hater in particular, one thing I did wonder was why all the non-shire main characters had to have long hair and beards, it is nice to see an alternative view with them not having the said items! Save Gandalf, obviously.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 25 2015, 3:01pm

Post #3 of 18 (5381 views)
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"A hard time we had of it..." The slow march South. I really like the way that... [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like the way that, to begin with the Fellowship's struggle is with the land itself - the practical difficulties of the cold, the wind, and travelling during the winter night. So much better than moving the characters across the map as if they are pieces in a wargame, instead of people:


Quote
If you take a flat map And move wooden blocks upon it strategically, The thing looks well, the blocks behave as they should. The science of war is moving live men like blocks. And getting the blocks into place at a fixed moment. But it takes time to mold your men into blocks And flat maps turn into country where creeks and gullies Hamper your wooden squares. They stick in the brush, They are tired and rest, they straggle after ripe blackberries, And you cannot lift them up in your hand and move them. It is all so clear in the maps, so clear in the mind, But the orders are slow, the men in the blocks are slow To move, when they start they take too long on the way - The General loses his stars, and the block-men die In unstrategic defiance of martial law Because still used to just being men, not block parts.

John Brown's Body
By Stephen Vincent Benét (it's a prose poem, hence the weird capitalization)
https://books.google.co.uk/...rries%22&f=false


I think the discomfort might be something Tolkien experienced himself during his wartime service: I'd imagine it would be uncomfortable enough to make one "uneasy" let alone constantly worrying about detection. But the unexpected treat of a sunrise is a nice touch of the positive side. I'm glad Frodo is not such a hardened adventurer that he has gone like general von Scliffen


Quote
...he concentrated with such single-mindedness on his profession that when an aide, at the end of an all-night staff ride in East Prussia, pointed out to him the beauty of the river Pregel sparkling in the rising sun, the General gave a brief, hard look and replied, 'An unimportant obstacle.”

Barbara Tuchman - Guns of August
https://books.google.co.uk/...0tuchman&f=false


Another thing that probably means something is the encroaching darkness - night marches, then movement under heavy snow clouds, then of course the complete dark of Moria...

As regards navigation, I suppose that they get on well at first because Aragorn has often been this way - in and out of Rivendell - and perhaps using this area for "Ranger Training" expeditions of his youth. But navigating at night sounds very difficult (I've not tried: has anyone?) I'd have thought it would be easy to find you'd ended up on a path leading to a cliff or swamp. I guess those paths either led somewhere useful once upon a time, or are made now by animals that want to go off cliffs or into swamps.

Whether it is realistic for the land to be so empty, I couldn't say: it is certainly effective As is the East wind - meterological phenomenon or the cold searching malice of Sauron?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 25 2015, 3:10pm

Post #4 of 18 (5382 views)
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"It's quiet...too quiet..."[Gunshot. Bullet whizzes past his head] "Now, suddenly, it's too loud. I preferred it when it was quiet."— O'Malley, Red vs. Blue [In reply to] Can't Post

When it's "too quiet" , this is the trope that there is someone..or something... out there...

As the folks at TVtropes say about this - there may be some sense in it as well as suspense:


Quote
This first developed from the fact that natural background noise in the wilderness will disappear when the animals making the noise are alerted to intruders. If you are in the woods, and everything suddenly goes quiet, it is a safe bet that you are not alone.

...

This applies to the ocean as well. Scuba divers have been warned to take note if all the fish disappear, as there's a good chance that they're fleeing a a predator—a shark, a giant squid, etc.

This is actually a usable rule of thumb in counter-insurgency operations. If a street is filled with people, you're probably safe. If it isn't and it should be, you're probably about to be ambushed.
It can also be a subversion where the people have left because they know that soldiers are coming and that the insurgents will probably follow to try to blow the soldiers (and any civilians around them) up.

http://tvtropes.org/...ain/ItsQuietTooQuiet


(I was trying to research a half-remembered quote: "I don't like it Carruthers: it's quiet; to darned quiet..." but no luck....)

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 25 2015, 3:13pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 25 2015, 3:17pm

Post #5 of 18 (5375 views)
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Crows spying out the land: :) here come the enemy's special forces then. Crows have great espirit de caw...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 25 2015, 6:38pm

Post #6 of 18 (5368 views)
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Gimli the linguist [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Gimli names the mountains in all three languages out of politeness, and also because Tolkien was having fun making up this those names!

His speech would work just as well if he admitted "never before have I seen them in waking life..." because (apart from a handy geography lesson for us) I think the intent is that we see how Moria is so important in dwarf culture.

I suppose that Gimli must have crossed the Misty Mountains on his way to Rivendell: that seems the obvious time for him to have seen these mountains before.

Pippin hasn't been much help since he negotiated with Farmer Maggot, has he ? For now he continues to carry the "idiot ball" http://tvtropes.org/...i.php/Main/IdiotBall : maybe he'll find another nice shiny ball later...

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 3:10pm

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Holly and Hollin [In reply to] Can't Post

Here we first encounter the Holly Trees that are the symbol of the old Elvish kingdom. We will see them again at the gates of Moria.
E. Is there any real-word, medieval-type symbolism associated with Holly, which enriches its use here?



In heraldic terms, holly symbolizes 'truth' in a very naturalistic sense.


What's interesting about its use here is that the use of holly - ilex aquifolium in Europe - had become associated with the Christian holiday of Christmastime (and it still is today). Yet the use of holly as a seasonal symbol of life extant and awaiting renewal in winter far predates the Christian faith. That winter ceremonial was adapted by the newer faith as one of its key calendar points despite it being celebrated at the savior's birth - which is likely, in both Biblical and historical writings, at another time of year. So both the timing near the winter solstice and the use of the symbolic plant, which remains green and bears red berries, unites both older Druidic - based faiths and newer faiths with the trappings of the winter festival. The colors of red and green that we user for Christmas are adapted from the older cultures, in which red was a powerful color symbolizing blood and life (apropos for the female berries) and green as the symbol of growth and earth. That ancient tradition of celebrating life, in some form, in the midst of the most difficult time to Northern climes of year seems to be a very old need that humans have.


At earlier times in history, oak was used in a very similar fashion because of the existence of the acorn and the curving similarity of oak leaves to ilex leaves. (I believe they were even considered to be part of the same genus until more precise classifications were developed, possibly even into the Victorian era.) Oak though does not carry quite the same symbolism as it is not evergreen: that is a key component of maintaining the 'hope' of renewal of life every spring in Northern climes with a significant winter, such as JRRT studied and based his mythos on the traditions of.


That's why I find its use by JRRT here fascinating as a reference and perhaps a symbol of the changing times and cultures within Middle-earth. The holly itself is evergreen, a potent symbol of life persisting and annual renewal, and its heraldic symbolism of 'truth' (in a very pure, elemental sense) combined with the both pagan and Christian use as a symbol seems to precisely describe the changeover in Middle-earth. We see a change from the old, 'pagan' world of the Firstborn to the newer world of men - all while maintaining the same green, growing and genuine beyond-time sort of hope in the symbol of the holly trees.


I have hollies myself, and I cherish them as well.









(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 27 2015, 3:10pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 3:14pm

Post #8 of 18 (5318 views)
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I love Legolas' speech there [In reply to] Can't Post

M. What is the point of Legolas’ epitaph, spoken on behalf of the stones rather than the trees or grass, for the Elves of Eregion?


The trees and grass will return, but the fair constructs of the Elves will not. Unsure









Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2015, 4:19pm

Post #9 of 18 (5313 views)
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It's creepy...too creepy... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a nice nod to Aragorn's Ranger experience that he makes this observation about the unnatural quietness of the Hollin area. But I was wondering why, say, Frodo or Gandalf didn't notice this. (Thoughts on the future instead, perhaps?) Because anyone who's spent time out in the woods (not even necessarily a forest or wilderness area) and has an even vague awareness of their surroundings will pick up on a strange silence (especially if it happens to be sudden). It's a very good indicator of a storm coming up, for instance. However, I'm giving the company a pass because it's winter, when obviously there's not going to be a lot of birdsong or squirrels rustling around or foxes thinking out loud to form much of a contrast to the vast silence. Smile


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



sador
Half-elven


Apr 27 2015, 4:28pm

Post #10 of 18 (5314 views)
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Plodding on [In reply to] Can't Post

A. If the land is both rough and barren, who makes the paths and for what purpose, and why does Aragorn know it so well he can find his way in the dark?
Rangers? Animals? The elves which lived here once?

In fact, I do not know mountaneering well enough to estimate how serious your question really is. Can't running water do the trick?

B. Following the general weather patterns of Western Europe, shouldn’t the East Wind be an exceptional event to the west of the mountains?
I would say normally a wind wouldn't come from the mountains, not unless there is some heavy weather up there which leads to irregular atmospheric pressure.
But I'm no expert; perhaps DanielB would know.

C. After walking for many miles over rough country, why do they sleep “uneasily”? It is very uncomfortable, and sleeping at daytime is never very easy if you are watchful, and the cold doesn't help.

D. Doesn’t Aragorn know how to avoid such mistakes by now?

I've assumed he did know, and did avoiud them. Am I misreading?

E. Is there any real-word, medieval-type symbolism associated with Holly, which enriches its use here?
Christmas.

F. Why no sign or mention here, or later in this chapter and the next, of Ost-in-Edhil, the “chief city of Eregion” according to the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales?
Perhaps there is one in Legolas' lament of the stones.


G. Is this impudence, growing confidence, or the secure knowledge on Frodo’s part that Gandalf believes that ‘All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word [unquenchable], and to correct them’?
I've a;ways read this as innocence.

H. Why is Pippin the poster hobbit for this constant question of whether studying a map is necessary for embarking on a quest?
The question would never occur to Sam, and Merry is supposed to have studied.

I. When would Gimli have seen them before, and need he have done so to justify this speech, since the iconic imagery is a mainstay of Dwarvish art?
He doesn't need to justify recognising them; but perhaps impressing others with his experience is a good thing.

He probably saw them from the other side; or when he was very young, before moving to Ereebor.

J. Why state all the names in all three languages: Dwarvish, Elvish, Westron (Common Speech = English)?

Showing off.
Both Gimli and Tolkien.

K. Is this the first time that Tolkien deploys Dwarvish?
I think so. Even the writing on Thror's map (which should have been secret, and therefore likely in Khuzdul) is good English.
And the dwarvish names in BoLT do not seem proper dwarvish to me.

L. Does Gandalf (or, let’s face it, Tolkien) even know or have any idea?
He probably has some ideas, but would like to learn more - from Galadriel, and possibly from Gwaihir and Radagast too.

M. What is the point of Legolas’ epitaph, spoken on behalf of the stones rather than the trees or grass, for the Elves of Eregion?

These were Noldor! Not Sindarin or Sylvan.

N. Why is Hollin so silent and spooky, if Aragorn is correct?
Perhaps the animals knew what weather was in store? Or about the wargs.

Or possibly they were frightened off long ago by the Black Riders, and did not return.
Or eaten by the people migrating from Dunland.

O. Can Gandalf be right that the animals of Hollin would take note of, and be “surprised” by, four hobbits?

Remember the fox?

P. Is this a common epigram among those in the know in Middle-earth?
Hardly. Who knows aboiut Aragorn?


Q. Have you ever experienced silence in an outdoor setting the way it’s described here?
Yes. But it was in the dead of the night.


R. Does this mean the company was spotted?
That's what the reader is supposed to assume.
But we can't really know.

S. Can crows fly in great flocks for hundreds of miles without feeding?
I would guess not.
But I guess eagles can't, either - and I really don't know.

T. What are the consequences of this episode, later in the story?

Are there any consequences?
But I note that we do find out about the trouble in the south later.

U. What are the company’s provisions, and what have they been eating for 14 days, hot or cold?
Cram.

W. Leaving aside the question of where his pipe is since he will be smoking it in Moria two days later, do comments like this serve to counter those fans who repeatedly refer to Gandalf as a “Maia” with cosmological powers?
Those fans brush away all counter-arguments.
Give it up.

V. Is there ever a time in LotR when, in fact, they seem to be enjoying a balmy clime?
1420 in the Shire.




Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2015, 4:29pm

Post #11 of 18 (5312 views)
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Navigating at night [In reply to] Can't Post

Never tried it at night, except on well-worn paths--and even those get tricky in the dark! (Plus, that time at summer camp I got poison ivy from taking the wrong path at night... Tongue) I imagine the Hollin paths are quite obscured by now.



In Reply To
As regards navigation, I suppose that they get on well at first because Aragorn has often been this way - in and out of Rivendell - and perhaps using this area for "Ranger Training" expeditions of his youth. But navigating at night sounds very difficult (I've not tried: has anyone?) I'd have thought it would be easy to find you'd ended up on a path leading to a cliff or swamp. I guess those paths either led somewhere useful once upon a time, or are made now by animals that want to go off cliffs or into swamps.




Or to trick hapless campers into getting rashes.Shocked


Nevertheless, this is a very effective scene for setting and keeping a tone of hardship and despondence! And yet we're just getting started with that...


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



squire
Half-elven


Apr 28 2015, 5:54pm

Post #12 of 18 (5280 views)
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That was great! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all that information. What I'd love to be able to do is use the symbolism given -- that holly stands for 'truth' and for the continuation of life and love during the cold of midwinter -- and connect it to one of the many Elvish kingdoms of Middle-earth.

Take, for instance, Tolkien's invention of the mallorn as the symbol of Lothlorien. By inventing a tree in this case, he gets exactly what he wants: a deciduous tree that keeps its leaves throughout the winter, that is ideal for treehouses by the way its branches grow, and most importantly, that captures the two colors of silver and gold in its smooth grey bark and its golden leaves through winter. Silver and gold, of course, are the colors of the two original Trees of Light in Valinor in the Elder Days, and Lothlorien in The Lord of the Rings is the closest thing we experience to being in Valinor.

Likewise, the White Tree of Elendil of Gondor: it stands for the gift of a descendant of the Silver Tree of Light to the Dunedain who allied themselves with the High Elves against the Enemy. It is a symbol of the near-Elvishness of the greatest race of mortal Men in Middle-earth, even in the new Fourth Age to come.

In a negative sense, pine-trees almost always are associated with a more hostile, rocky, cold, northern or barren landscape - they are, without being too literal, the Trees of Morgoth and Mirkwood.

How, then, does the holly of Eregion (Hollin) inform us about that place? I'm not sure it does in any fully worked-out sense, but I always associate its appearance in the story with the arrival of the Company at a warm and sunny place in their journey, after weeks of travel in hard and hostile weather. If, as you say, the holly has always stood for life and warmth (red blood and green fertility) in mid-winter, perhaps this entire gambit was invented merely to give a brilliant visual to the Fellowship's 'reward' moment in the January wilderness west of the mountains.

As far as I know, all the additional stuff he later wrote about Eregion was not yet in Tolkien's mind when he wrote this scene: that this turns out to be the Elvish kingdom where Celebrimbor forged the Rings of Power, and where these Elves and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum lived in most close association and alliance in the history of Middle-earth. "Truth" is a fine thing, of course, but that aspect of the holly's mystic power doesn't seem to have protected the ring-makers' from Sauron's deceits!



squire online:
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 28 2015, 7:05pm

Post #13 of 18 (5273 views)
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Well, actually, [In reply to] Can't Post

one could say that truthful nature of Eregion did help the Elves see through Sauron's deceit, but only too late, when he'd created the One. But Men were ensnared, quite easily too, after the One was created and used. Dwarves fall somewhere in-between, and it seems it wasn't about truth or not but about their cantankerous, indomitable nature.

It also seems to me that there's a sense of integrity in the Three that's part-Elvish, but not automatically so. The Noldor were certainly into domination in their revolt from the Valar and their settlement in Beleriand, so they weren't immune to the idea of creating weapons of mass domination. I'm sure the Sons of Feanor would have loved to have the One and the Nine, if they'd thought of them.

But something higher and loftier happened to the Noldor in Eregion to create the Three intent upon understanding, preserving peace, and healing. That's a radical change from the Noldor who attacked the Teleri and besieged Morgoth. Whether they passed that character onto Eregion, or found it there, or there was some back & forth reinforcement between holly-land and people, I can't say.


squire
Half-elven


Apr 28 2015, 7:29pm

Post #14 of 18 (5270 views)
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That speaks to a deep debate within Tolkien's soul about the Elvish rings [In reply to] Can't Post

Although they come across as "good" compared to the One, the Seven, and the Nine (which were forged with more of Sauron's spirit in them), the Three are not entirely exempt from the fundamental sin of being artifacts of Power. They preserve and heal, surely; but as Tolkien did not work very hard to make clear in the book, so much as he did in his letters and in the subtext of the book, those qualities are not completely distinguishable from the less attractive effects of embalming, enshrining, and possessing. It took me years on this site before I began to see this, but from that angle, once again the Smiths of Eregion were unable to see the Truth that their masters the Valar, even Aule the Maker, are supposed to have understood: that letting go is as important as taking hold, and that possession has some aspects of theft.

Here's how Tolkien wrote about it when he summed up the combined books of The Silmarillion and LotR to a possible publisher in the early 1950s:
In the first we see a sort of second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves. There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against counsel, still sadly with the mortal lands of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming – even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of its hurts.

We hear of a lingering kingdom, in the extreme North-west more or less in what was left in the old lands of The Silmarillion, under Gilgalad; and of other settlements, such as Imladris (Rivendell) near Elrond; and a great one at Eregion at the Western feet of the Misty Mountains, adjacent to the Mines of Moria, the major realm of the Dwarves in the Second Age. There arose a friendship between the usually hostile folk (of Elves and Dwarves) for the first and only time, and smithcraft reached its highest development.

But many of me Elves listened to Sauron. He was still fair in that early time, and his motives and those of the Elves seemed to go partly together: the healing of the desolate lands. Sauron found their weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise.

Gilgalad repulsed all such overtures, as also did Elrond. But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods).

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination.
- JRRT, Letter 131, c. late 1951

In short, it's ironic that the entire idea of the Rings of Power evolved out of the innocent story-device of a ring of invisibility for Bilbo the burglar in The Hobbit. Because by the time Tolkien had finished working out their place in his ever-enlarging legendarium they had become a recapitulation and reworking of his central theme in his first book, the fall or "error" of the Elves. Like the Silmarils the Rings are symbols of the dangers of using craft, art, and wisdom to arrange and compel the powers of Nature towards unnatural ends. Feanor (an irrepressible and unique genius) captured the light of the Trees; Celebrimbor (taught and ensnared by Sauron) captured the souls of the Free Peoples. Neither idea turned out to be the True way for the Children of Eru to live, to return to the question of using Holly to say that Eregion possessed the virtue of truth and understanding.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 29 2015, 12:11am

Post #15 of 18 (5259 views)
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Maybe it's the layer of truth that matters [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Neither idea turned out to be the True way for the Children of Eru to live, to return to the question of using Holly to say that Eregion possessed the virtue of truth and understanding.

The Noldor are the Deep Elves, most ardent about gaining knowledge, or pursuing truth and understanding. Not Ultimate Truth (Eru's truth), but the truth/knowledge that makes things work and enables smiths to ply their crafts. So perhaps he had that echelon of "truth" in mind when associating holly with the Noldor of Eregion.

I think Tolkien had a similarly layered feeling about Lorien and Rivendell. It's hard to think of a better, more magically wonderful place to be than either realm. Clearly he admired them on one layer. He apparently, on another layer, found them at variance with Divine Intent, and while he says "embalming," I don't get that feeling from either place. Fangorn Forest feels embalmed. Rath Dinen is embalmed. Lorien and Rivendell have a sense of vitality to them. They may be frozen in time, but if paradise is a frozen moment, I'll take that over Mordor or Mirkwood any day. Or Dunland or Harad, etc.

It's hard for me to see the wielders of the Three Rings as anything but virtuous, and they accepted the end to their long centuries of "embalming" in defiance of the gods with grace. So I guess I tend to downplay that criticism he offered there. Certainly it's true that the Elves were past their prime, and all that nostalgia prevented them from creating anything new and wonderful--there are no new Gondolins or Nargothronds. But they were still the top societies of Middle-earth. I think he admired them more than criticized them.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2015, 1:17am

Post #16 of 18 (5253 views)
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Excellent point on Mallorns, and perhaps a similarity to the enduring [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
ideal of the holly as potentially used in Hollin. Both the Mallorn and the Holly are strongly bi-colored, with each color of deep significance (one in fantasy, one in real-world tradition). And both recall and older world to a newer world, with some of its initial meaning forgotten the longer Time prevails. That perhaps is more of what I see in the hollies significance - the dual use as a celebratory plant by faiths and cultures long (for our world anyway!) separated yet using common symbols - versus the heraldic symbolism which is more inherently later European, yet still (if unrecalled) harkens back to a rejected pagan tradition for a similar meaning. So as more of a bridging idea ... and in truth, not so much on Elf lore as in our lore. This could be one place in the legendarium where the real-world meaning could have more weight than the Middle-earth one. So I am not sure of we can use it as a direct connect to a Firstborn Realm, or if its connect is more a botanical symbol of plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


However, as far as story significance, you said :
If, as you say, the holly has always stood for life and warmth (red blood and green fertility) in mid-winter, perhaps this entire gambit was invented merely to give a brilliant visual to the Fellowship's 'reward' moment in the January wilderness west of the mountains.

And this sounds very 'right' and fitting, I think.









Pryderi
Rivendell

Apr 29 2015, 8:02pm

Post #17 of 18 (5238 views)
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Carruthers [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm. Does your quote come from "Pure Hell at St Trinians"? I haven't checked but it sounds familiar. You will recall that the sixth form having been sent on a "mind broadening" and "character building" educational trip were in fact abducted by "white slave traders" apparently led by Sid James. When the FO finally catch up with the shenanigans they try to work out the nearest British Military Facility to assist in "search and rescue". This turns out to be a "Mobile Bath Unit" whose usual functions are entirely ablutionary. Nevertheless the commanding officer and his sidekick, who I believe to have been Carruthers are quite prepared to dress up in all sorts of outlandish gear and go "undercover" to advance their careers etc. All their efforts come to naught of course as the day is saved by the fourth form who arrive over the horizon in the armoured cars they have commandeered. Amongst all the parodic shambolics I believe the Bath Unit CO may have used the offending phrase. But maybe not.
Thanks to all of you for keeping up the good work. I'm still paying attention.

Pryderi.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 29 2015, 8:11pm

Post #18 of 18 (5229 views)
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Could be! I expected it to be "Riddle of the Sands", but it seems not. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154

 
 

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