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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"It is his first strike" PJ on Sauron and the BOFA
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 23 2015, 1:07pm

Post #1 of 38 (2831 views)
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"It is his first strike" PJ on Sauron and the BOFA Can't Post

With the BOFA Blu Ray now available in the UK I watched the official post movie extras feature which covers the meshing together of the two trilogies.

Sir Peter, and the Weta chap before him, make it clear this is Saurons opening gambit in the battle of middle earth. From the dwarf hunt from Bree until the Ravenhill the film makers intent is to pursue the company and particularly Thorin in the some way the nine pursue Baggins 60 years later and move to open war.

Those whom have followed my comments about Azog west of the misty mountains will know my personal view of this and in the end I have the books.

If however one looks at this from the movie universe and believes in this. Is it credible that having uncovered Sauron would Gandalf simply wait sixty years before seeing how Saruman is getting on with Sauron or might not have wondered a little earlier about being lied to over a magic ring by his great friend. Indeed what was he doing for sixty years. Knowing the nine have risen would not all the free peoples be on a war footing from the moment Bilbo returned home.

Does this work for people as a separate tradition from the books?

In the books they adopt a wait and see approach but Sauron never goes to open war until the assault on Minus Tirith and the pre-emptive strike on Osgiliath when he allows the Witch King to reveal himself. In the films we have hard evidence war is upon them, initiated by Sauron and no alliances or plans are made.

On a separate point right at the outset of the movie there is a scene inside Bards house where Tauriel exorts them all to leave and climb into the boat I do not remember this from my viewings it worked well though.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 23 2015, 2:33pm

Post #2 of 38 (2653 views)
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Question about the film-verse. [In reply to] Can't Post

What I have to wonder is, if the Nazgul were thought to be permanently defeated and entombed at the High Fells and it was believed that the One Ring was forever lost and Sauron unable to regain enough power to again become a thread, what was the reason for the Istari to linger in Middle-earth? It seems to me that Saruman, at least, believed that their purpose was already achieved.

But, for your own questions, the situation is roughly the same in both books and film after the defeat of Sauron at Dol Guldur. The members of the White Council believe that they have achieved a major victory, not realizing that the Enemy has merely been delayed for a few years. Granted, in the flilm-verse, there should be more concern over the return of the Nine and the fact that they are free again in Middle-earth. And the return of Sauron itself shows that the assurances of Saruman at the meeting of the White Council were misplaced, to say the least. Dol Guldur proves that Sauron remains a credible threat even without possession of the Ring for as long as the Master Ring continues to exist.

Gandalf still does not need to suspect that Bilbo has anything more than a lesser ring and may even believe at first that Bilbo is being truthful about having lost it during the Battle of Five Armies. We do know that he will be keeping an eye on the hobbit in the coming years in any case.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 23 2015, 3:31pm

Post #3 of 38 (2608 views)
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Thanks for your reply [In reply to] Can't Post

On the question of Saruman, PJ's view of him is he is contemptuous and arrogant and as in real life people who display those qualities tend to underestimate others. It goes back to his complacency at the White Council and his coming attempt to quell Sauron which will end with him being drawn into the axis of evil. That is a progression that makes sense to me both book and film. He miss the signs, makes out he can sort Sauron, a dangerous mis calculation, and gets drawn in. I am good with that.

I took it from Elrond's remarks "we should warn Gondor" after Galadriel repelled Sauron that the nine and Sauron had merely withdrawn to Mordor not been banished.

On the question of Bilbo he lied to Gandalf and the change of expression by Gandalf to a grimace, which was affected post production by CG, is intended to convey to the audience that Gandalf does not believe him. Knowing Gandalf as we do, I would expect him to ponder on that uncharacteristic quality displayed by Bilbo immediately, not simply to visit him occasionally.

I also think your missing the biggest distinction between book and film Sauron has initiated all out war against Dwarves/Elves and Men.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 23 2015, 4:01pm

Post #4 of 38 (2580 views)
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I think that you misunderstood me. [In reply to] Can't Post

What I meant was what was holding the Istari in Middle-earth after the Nine were defeated at the fall of Angmar? The only answer would seem to be that it was uncertainty over the fate of the One Ring. Saruman professed to believe that Sauron could never be a threat again unless he was able to reclaim the Master Ring. If Saruman the White truly believed that the Ring was lost forever then he had to also think that the purpose of the Istari in Middle-earth was fulfilled--at least until he was proved wrong by the events of the Hobbit trilogy.

I agree with you about Gandalf at the end of TH:BotFA; he did not really believe that Bilbo had lost his ring. Another reason to keep tabs on his hobbit friend.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 23 2015, 7:30pm

Post #5 of 38 (2437 views)
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So, the ring made Bilbo lie? [In reply to] Can't Post

My trouble with that scene (and it's a small trouble) is how did Gandalf know to begin with? Did he sense its presence, or did he see Bilbo put it on after Bilbo assured him "they won't see me." Maybe he peeked around the corner or something, or maybe it's because he's a wizard, you know. I don't know, and I doubt the EE will explain it. But it kind of bugs me.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 23 2015, 8:03pm

Post #6 of 38 (2421 views)
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Did the Ring make Bilbo lie? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps it would be more correct to say that the Ring might have encouraged Bilbo to lie. It would have still been his choice.

If Gandalf did not see that Bilbo still had the Ring then he might have only had a hunch about its presence. Still, Gandalf might have been granted a bit of foresight so that it was a strong hunch. Keep in mind that as of this time I have still only seen TH:BotFA once, so I might have missed something.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 8:16pm

Post #7 of 38 (2408 views)
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He sees Bilbo slip something in his pocket in AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

And then there's the "I found something in the goblin tunnels" scene in DOS. Add Bilbo's assertive reply to Gandalf's "They will see you coming and kill you" and you've got a pretty good case forming, I'd say.



Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 23 2015, 8:53pm

Post #8 of 38 (2383 views)
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I understand [In reply to] Can't Post

I see your point now that by changing the back history to Sauron and the Nine there was a time when in Sarumans view there was no threat.

I went back and listened to the DG dialogue again after your post and whereas Galadriel and Elrond make cautionary remarks about warning Gondor and "he will return to the East" Sarumans dialogue talks about him being banished and never a threat again which seems to be a return to complacency and different from the ring bearers views.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Apr 23 2015, 10:21pm

Post #9 of 38 (2332 views)
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What was he doing for 60 years? What was he doing for 2,000 years? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether in the books or the films the audience is left to accept that Gandalf moves in mysterious, and indeed mysteriously slow, ways, as far as off-screen back story is concerned. 60 years are the least of his worries - and the other Istari are little better.

If we struggle with the credibility of this aspect of the films, then the books should have us tearing our hair out.

Our wizards arrive in ME with a single purpose - to thwart the wiles of Sauron. See a wile, thwart it. They hit the Havens bright eyed and bushy tailed and pretty much straight off they have a great lead. There is a dark power in DG and not only that but they think it is probably one of Sauron's key servants. What do they do? They don't even so much as take a look for a millennium. A millennium!

What does Gandalf do about Bilbo's ring -despite knowing "from the first" that it was one of only 20 rings of power? Nothing at all. What do they do about Sauron's servants undertaking open war in Angmar and Ithilien for hundreds of years? Nowt.

If we are going to find all that credible, the film version should be a breeze.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Apr 23 2015, 10:30pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 24 2015, 12:16am

Post #10 of 38 (2302 views)
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WELL Okay, but once again we are using [In reply to] Can't Post

21st Century "Sensibilities"..

which... is one of many underlying problems.

Gandalf probably left Bilbo @ the Edge of the Shire,
then rested @ The Prancing Pony...
Hung out for awhile until Strider showed up...

Told him to keep Watch on the Shire?
with his other Dundedan...

Maybe hung out Tom Bombadil & Goldberry to
LEARN more of what he didn't know about the Earliest
Days of ME...

Me, personally think TB & G are a Gold Mine about the earliest
Days, but being the type of (people???} they are...Didn't write any
of it down.

Gandalf could have learned alot from the Graves in the Barrow Downs?

THEN, likely ventured to Rivendell to do alot of Reading
& Counseled with Elrond...

THEN might have ventured over or Under? the Misty Mountains
to see how Galadreil was doing? after her "Over-Whelming of Sauron"..

AND you know the Days Pass Un-Counted
when you are under the Spell of Lothlorien..?

Do you Think he might
Have Looked into
HER Mirror?.

Likely took some time @ Radagast's House & helped clean up Southern Mirkwood.

SORRY, this sounds Like "Fan Fiction" doesn't IT...?

UMMM?..Nevermind..bomby will go hide NOW!
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 24 2015, 6:28am

Post #11 of 38 (2203 views)
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Thanks for your reply [In reply to] Can't Post

So what you are saying is that from your point of view the fact that :-

1) Sauron has moved to open war.

2) Bilbo has been seen to lie to Gandalf immediately the quest for Erebor has finished.

Does not give the long term storyline a jolt.

Thanks you have answered my question for you these alterations to the long term development of these two story arcs (Saurons plans for middle earth and the uncovering of the true nature of the rings) do not disturb the status quo of the books.

On the question of Gandalfs behaviour in the books and the Istari in general, they did not come in great glory and splendour to resolve the matter of the residue of evil. They were bidden to hide their power and coax the free peoples of middle earth gradually tortuously toward the outcome wished and intended and hoped for by the AInur. They are not raising armies controlling strategies and pursing pre emotive strikes when they become prideful and controlling they fall cf Saruman. They operate like the Eagles at a pinch to coax the story already written to its conclusion.

The wise and this includes the elven ring bearers know that substantial displays of their inherent spiritual powers has great risks and in this regard the work Cate did on set with Fran Peter and Phillippa worked really well. So they to display an at a pinch approach preparing to take risks because it becomes so very important to do so. This explains for me why the wise hesitate in the third age they have to be forced to take action and when they adopt a controlling more generally strategic approach things go wrong cf Saruman.

In the books Gandalf takes the sign of the Winged Nazgul crossing the river as a sign of open war and at that moment his passive role is set aside in favour of coming to the aid of the free peoples at a pinch. In my view of Gandalf now that Sauron has initiated open war on Erebor
he would apply the same mode and pursue an at a pinch approach whether its pursing answers from Bilbo, over the magic ring, having uncharacteristically lied or ensuring that Saruman deals with Sauron. In Sir Peters middle earth the time for Quiescent, reactive action has passed with legions of orcs appearing from Dol Gulder. Popping in for tea to Hobbiton every few years seems wrong in this more obviously dangerous world that has been created by the film makers where the enemies servants appear in the Prancing Pony at the time of the Quest for Erebor as opposed to the books where this kind if jeopardy is only apparent 60 years later.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Apr 24 2015, 6:42am)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 24 2015, 6:47am

Post #12 of 38 (2187 views)
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Great Stuff Bomby [In reply to] Can't Post

If the timeline was 20 years I would not have raised the point but the kind of action that Gandalf takes in the 17 years preceding the journey to Rivendell by Frodo should have started on Day 1 in the films because the threat created is starker clearer and much more obvious.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2015, 8:11am

Post #13 of 38 (2163 views)
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I'm not sure where the alterations are. [In reply to] Can't Post

But my more general points were that, in the comparison of face-value credibility, the book undoubtedly is the harder hill to climb in these areas.

To alteration, in the book:
1. Sauron's forces have been in open war for thousands of years from Angmar to Gondor.
2. Bilbo lying to Gandalf about the ring and Gandalf disbelieving him is exactly what happens in the text

I don't agree there is a comparison between the Eagles and the Istari. The Wizards were sent with a clear mission. The idea that it was beyond them to attempt to so much as keep tabs on Sauron seems an odd one (and one belied by Gandalf's later mission to do just that). I quite agree about direct use of power but that is not the question in hand.

I also can't see this shift in Gandalf with regards to the Winged Nazgul - open war has been trundling across ME throughout the third age and, to take a crystallised example, in the book the most direct action by the WC (the assault on DG) is not spurred by winged Nazgul, armies marching or anything similar.
It doesn't seem to me to be the tune you suggest.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Apr 24 2015, 8:13am)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 24 2015, 9:08am

Post #14 of 38 (2150 views)
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Open War [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Yes there have been wars in the North and the South eroding the strength and resilience of Gondor BUT the crucial final turning point war is the war of the ring which reaches its zenith before the gates of Minus Tirith where he reveals his full strength and the winged Nazgul in a prelude to this final war cross the river.

The Battle of Five Armies was prosecuted as a local war like the other ones you mention and was generated by the death of the Goblin King and the Dragon and in which Gandalf once again had a catalytic though not overarching affect.

For the film makers to make a link between Bolg and Dol Gulder and the Dragon and Sauron feels right to me. He is stirring up and sponsoring evil where ever he can but he is not ready to reveal himself cf Galadriel White Council) or the Nazgul and Gandalf forces his hand draws in the White Council and he is forced to withdraw. However at some point the film makers decided to make the BOFA the first step in Saurons all out open war policy with Azog as his commander of legions. He is not ready the seeds have been sown and the links made and open war is coming as Narzug prophesied but not yet. Open war the final war will come when he is prepared to release the Nazgul in open war fare whereas they are hiding (in the film universe) in a cloak of secrecy whilst Sauron regains his strength.

The Eagles like the Istari are Manwe's instruments.

If you can not see the distinction between the local war of the North and the coming catastrophe of the war of the ring thats cool with me. Page after page and a great deal of the dialogue in the LOTR films build such a narrative.

But lets be honest every single time I make a perfectly valid point backed up with textual and filmic dialogue facts you never see it. I am cool with that but I am not going to waste any more time quoting Peter Jackson direct or the books or the films if you do not see it that just fine..

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 24 2015, 10:47am

Post #15 of 38 (2130 views)
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Michelle you are piecing together something [In reply to] Can't Post

that is truly difficult to derive all the Answers..
we'd like to have...

YES, some of the Key elements are shown
directly to us in the Movies.

1. Gandalf killing the GoblinKing is a MAJOR
turning point...to motivate the Orcs/Goblins to
attempt a Daylight war..?

That alone gives us THE Motive for this assault against
the Dwarves since they were there, & THEY killed WHAT?
@least a hundred of their family inside the Mountains...

2. ONLY When the Giant spiders attack Rhosgobel.. this motivates
Radagast to investigate Dol Guldur...& He does see the Necromancer!

AND He found the Blade
which he felt important enough to travel a long way to give it to
Gandalf...

THIS is really important, since it encourages Galadriel to condone
this Mission of the Dwarves..even without Saruman's input.

{It will be really interesting to see how the WitchKing gets it back?
in the EE version coming soon.}

Maybe when we finally get the Full version, will the Whole THING
come to a satisfying conclusion...

It's kinda like trying to put together a 500 piece Jigsaw puzzle
without about 100 pieces missing..?

BUT it is
Really fun to speculate now, about 6 months before the Final version is
Released.

That version can't come soon enough.

bom
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2015, 12:21pm

Post #16 of 38 (2099 views)
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The Ring... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is involved in scenes with Gandalf in all three films. I think we are meant to think he put two and two together. In AUJ, he may have seen Bilbo put the Ring away in his pocket, when he suddenly appears after having been missed. In DoS there is the scene where Bilbo seems almost ready to tell Gandalf what he has found (on the edge of Mirkwood) and then tell him he has found "his courage". And then finally there is Bilbo's certainty that he will not be seen in Bo5A.



Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 24 2015, 1:33pm

Post #17 of 38 (2085 views)
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Very True and the EE may help. [In reply to] Can't Post

I applaud PFP for trying to mesh and in some cases reverse engineer the Hobbit with their other films.

However I am a very instinctive person and that feature brought it home to me how far PJ has travelled on the matter of Sauron circa 2941 who had no involvement what so ever in the BOFA book version let alone initiate open warfare.

I happen to think their back story on Galadriel, she is permanently changed by her encounter and is more passive in the LOTR, works really well.

I also understand set up with a 60 year gap is not easy at the moment we have :-

1) Legolas travelling North, from Erebor, (That should be interesting trekking) to find a 10 year old boy strider.
2) Saruman dealing with the big guy so that should make his report to the White Council in 2953 one not be missed even by Radagast who is presumably no longer "staff".
3) Gandalf finding out in 2942 that Bilbo is not just adjusting his story, as he discovers much later in't book, but has already taken to lieing.

The other bits Sting the Mithril shirt worked really nicely and I haven't mentioned the lovely cuddly Balin or his scribe Ori who havent been connected in any clear cut way.

Its all fun and a great hobb(it)y.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Apr 24 2015, 1:35pm)


Elarie
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2015, 1:48pm

Post #18 of 38 (2065 views)
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That 60 years [In reply to] Can't Post

quote: "If however one looks at this from the movie universe and believes in this. Is it credible that having uncovered Sauron would Gandalf simply wait sixty years before seeing how Saruman is getting on with Sauron or might not have wondered a little earlier about being lied to over a magic ring by his great friend. Indeed what was he doing for sixty years. Knowing the nine have risen would not all the free peoples be on a war footing from the moment Bilbo returned home."
__________________________

That 60 year delay seems very realistic to me, and very much in keeping with real life and the way people and countries actually behave (it's hard not to think of the Nazis as a comparison). In a non-technological world where travel and communication is by foot, horseback, etc. everything is just slower, and also, it's human nature to try and put off the inevitable and to think that things will always continue to go on as they currently are.

To the average person in Laketown and Erebor, the war is over and they have cities to rebuild. The elves of Lothorien and Rivendell have been withdrawing from the world for years, although their leaders keep tabs on what is happening and they have their scouts and messengers. The people of Gondor are slowly losing population and power and the idea of opening a full out war of aggression against Mordor would probably be a political hot potato. One of Gimli's lines in LOTR does a good job of summing up how most people think, when they are talking about Sauron in Mordor - it was something like, "Let him sit there, what do we care?"

Gandalf probably spent that 60 years being a very busy wizard, in the sense that being "busy" includes riding hundreds of miles cross country to his next business meeting, only to find that the person he wanted to see has gone elsewhere and won't be back for 3 months or is busy with local problems and not terribly interested in what is happening far away, etc. It took a lot of effort on Gandalf's part just to get Bilbo out of his door. Imagine him trying to motivate entire populations to go attack an enemy they'd never seen who was far away and sitting on the other side of a mountain range.

As for the ring, I've always wondered about that, too but apparently the idea the Bilbo could have found the One Ring in a mountain cave, when it was believed to have been swept down the Anduin, was just too incredible to consider.

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2015, 1:54pm

Post #19 of 38 (2065 views)
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A thought [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If however one looks at this from the movie universe and believes in this. Is it credible that having uncovered Sauron would Gandalf simply wait sixty years before seeing how Saruman is getting on with Sauron or might not have wondered a little earlier about being lied to over a magic ring by his great friend. Indeed what was he doing for sixty years. Knowing the nine have risen would not all the free peoples be on a war footing from the moment Bilbo returned home.


I will assume that Gandalf believes Saruman is handling it and if any big issues arise then they will be called upon. He still trusts him some at this point. I think Gandalf knows that Sauron cannot be defeated so much as thwarted for the time being. As far as being lied to I come to the conclusion that Gandalf knows Bilbo has something, but doesn't feel the need to make a big deal of it. There is no reason for him to believe that it is The One Ring otherwise he would have taken care of it there and then. As far as starting the process of getting the ring destroyed. As far as the nine being back after they're thwarted what's to worry about. Gandalf doesn't get concerned about them being out until Saruman tells him they've gone out into the world.



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2015, 4:55pm

Post #20 of 38 (2033 views)
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Sorry I'm not sure what point you are making. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I would point out that I always provide direct information and quotes for any responses.

I do indeed see distinctions between the war in the Hobbit and that in LOTR in both formats. That didn't seem to be your point.

You seemed to be suggesting that there was a change from the texts as the films have given us a new first chapter in "open war" by Sauron's servants in the third age.

I don't agree as the text tells us that Sauron's servants had been engaged in "open war" for thousands of years throughout the third age. That seems backed up to me, but perhaps I am missing something.

Perhaps I am also overly prosaic but it's sometimes hard to discern the salient points from the background descriptions e.g. The fact that they are both servants of Manwe seems to have no bearing on the fact that the Istari had a mission to thwart Sauron and the Eagles did not. I can't see how such descriptions are relevant.

That said I enjoy the discussion and would much rather you said which of my points you felt were untrue than walk away - but that is, of course, up to you.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2015, 5:07pm

Post #21 of 38 (2030 views)
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They aren't right are they? [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Aragon isn't 10 in the film version as the film has removed 17 years from the timeline
2. We don't know what further WC meetings happened, or when or what was said, in the films. Why shouldn't Saruman simple dissemble as in the text or explain that assaulting Sauron in Mordor was beyond him, as in the texts?
3. When do you think Gandalf hears the story and notices the lie in the text? The indications are that the timing was the exactly the same - at the time of TH. Am I forgettig a quote you are thinking of?


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2015, 8:18pm

Post #22 of 38 (1994 views)
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Aragorn's age [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, he would seem in his mid to late 20s,at the time Thranduil speaks of him. The Hobbit films begin 60 years before the LotR Birthday Party, and Aragorn tells Eowyn he is 89 in TTT. Gandalf travels to Gondor and back between the Party and Frodo's departure, something that might have taken as long as a year or two...not much longer.



Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 25 2015, 6:53am

Post #23 of 38 (1930 views)
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Elessar & Elarie [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your answers and they both make sense to me.

I can see where I am reacting differently. I am seeing great significance that Sauron has initiated open war fare against the free peoples in 2942 rather than 3019 as a substantial change in two ways:-

1) It is a straight forward historical point.

2) Much more interesting is the philosophical/spiritual point that in the films his reintegration as a cohesive spiritual force makes him ready. When I saw DOS I took the view that only in moments of great stress and confrontation he could summon enough power to momentarily be in the here and now and remained for the most part Sauron of the Shadows. I also took the view in BOFA that he was drawing in huge amounts of spiritual energy to be "in this world". Clearly to control and initiate open war and seek to openly dominate middle earth his reintegration needs to be as complete as sans ring he can be.

So in summary PJ has made Sauron "ready" in the Hobbit for open war and yet Galadriel can force him to withdraw I see an inherent contradiction there or to put it another way none of the wise would have gone up against Sauron 3019 so why would they a fully fledged Sauron 2942. The point is, or should have been, he is not fully fledged and a teenage Sauron would not have unleashed a pre emotive strike for Erebor whilst the dragon was still alive whom in the film he has made a connection with.

For me for Saurons story to be coherent in 2941 he should be able to link up with, sponsor and encourage evil, cloak himself and the nine in shadows and control and deceive those whom he has had captured Thrain BUT not initiate and control all out open war. The reason fro Gandalfs journey to Dol Gulder is to draw out Sauron before he is ready so he can be dealt with now as a kind of teenage Sauron.

In the films the coming of the company, Bilbos visit to Smaug and Gandalf going into DG are not welcome and not part of Saurons long term plan. In the films Azog is on a Dwarf hunt to stop the company reaching Erebor. Smaug, whom Sauron would like to include in his long term plans, unexpectedly gets himself killed but the change to this story vision is suddenly Sauron decides on pre emotive strike and unleashes an army in open war on Erebor on 13 Dwarves whilst the Dragon is alive. Why ?

On the matter of Gandalf. Bilbo's behaviour at the beginning of the LOTR is what convinces him that his ring is the one ring and he then looks to join up the dots. Its Bilbo's behaviour that triggers the enquiry.

The way at the last minute through ADR and CG they changed the last interaction between Gandalf and BIlbo so he outright lies to Gandalf and Gandalf acknowledges it was so dramatically convincing that it jolts the arc of Gandalfs concerns. In the book a shadow fell on his heart at that time the look on Gandalfs face is quite different its an outright and clearly defined emotional reaction that he has been lied to by his friend. To let that go in 2942 jars with me.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 25 2015, 6:56am

Post #24 of 38 (1930 views)
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Good Point I stand corrected [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank youSmile

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 25 2015, 7:20am

Post #25 of 38 (1923 views)
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Clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

1) I had overlooked the film contraction of time..
2) The fact that Sauron has gone to open war and Saruman has promised to deal with him changes the story and to believe that this would not be discussed in an intervening white council meeting is beyond complacency and is not credible to me.
3) In the film right at the end Bilbo lies to Gandalf who knows about the magic ring. This does not appear in the book. The story of Gandalf finding out about the ring is given in the book LOTR. He heard "'Bilbo's strange story of how he had won it and I could not believe him". This does not occur in 2942 and the truth emerges gradually after the Hobbit. To say it happens in the films like the book it just happens in a shorter time frame works for some issues but some times that actually isn't a truncation it means some thing different. In the books over many years Gandalf as with all things middle earth watches the story unfold slowly and gradually until their true meaning becomes apparent and then as always and in line with his
great mission he acts decisively or as I call it "at a pinch".

To starkly put the facts on the table that Bilbo has a magic ring and is prepared to lie about it in 2942 would for me be a pinch point for Gandalf to seek answers straight away rather than let the matter evolve slowly for the next sixty years.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

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