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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2015, 9:15am
Post #26 of 38
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2. I don't think I said it wouldn't be discussed. I said that in the films we don't know if there were any further meetings or when. More to the point, what issue does it give us? With no record of the dialogue, if there were a meeting we can imagine any dialogue we like. Saruman can lie, just as in the text and give confidence that he has discovered definitively that the Ring has been lost at sea, or explain that Sauron in Mordor was more powerful than expected and so no further action could be taken (as presumably the rest of the WC felt for 50 years in the text after Sauron's self-declaration in Mordor). Or anything else we choose to imagine.
3. I'm not sure where you are getting the later date from in the text for Gandalf learning of the ring and being lied to. Could you let me know the quote.
The indications I am aware of point to the same timing (excuse the long quote):
'When did I first begin to guess?' he mused, searching back in memory.
'Let me see – it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power
from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his
ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared.
I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at
least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he
had "won" it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of
him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond
doubt. Much like Gollum with his "birthday present". The lies were too much
alike for my comfort. Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to
work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning I had that all was
not well. I told Bilbo often that such rings were better left unused; but he
resented it, and soon got angry. There was little else that I could do."
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Apr 25 2015, 9:16am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 25 2015, 12:05pm
Post #27 of 38
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Yes, he would seem in his mid to late 20s,at the time Thranduil speaks of him. The Hobbit films begin 60 years before the LotR Birthday Party, and Aragorn tells Eowyn he is 89 in TTT. Gandalf travels to Gondor and back between the Party and Frodo's departure, something that might have taken as long as a year or two...not much longer. Aragorn tells Eowyn that he is 87 years old. This might be several days after his birthday on March 1 but, with the timeline altered from the book, it is hard to be certain. My best guess is that in the movie, Aragorn and his companions arrive at Edoras in early March, TA 3002. This would make Aragorn 25 years old at the time of the Battle of Five Armies (2940)
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 25 2015, 12:07pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2015, 5:26pm
Post #28 of 38
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For clarity : "at once" should have been highlighted.
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Whilst Gandalf consistently refers to his awareness of the ring being "from the first" that could (in theory) be poetic, and the suggestions of his first awareness being a long time before the events of LOTR seem very clear, but, I must allow, imprecise.
"At once" is a far clearer proof.
1. Gandalf concludes the ring had effect on Bilbo "at once"
2. The action which leads to Gandalf concluding this was Bilbo lying to him about how he got the ring
3. Thus Bilbo must have lied to Gandalf about how he got the ring "at once"
4. Thus Gandalf must have known about the ring and the lie "at once" (we know from the LOTR prologue that Gandalf recognised the lie as soon as he heard it.
I don't see how "at once" can mean many years later but you seem absolutely certain that this did not take place at the time of the events of TH, so I must have forgotten another quote by Tolkien elsewhere, which is both clearer than this and makes sense of it somehow?
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Apr 25 2015, 5:29pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Apr 26 2015, 6:30pm
Post #29 of 38
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Open War
The wise have a confrontation with Sauron whom Galadriel manages to repel because Sauron has not reached his full reintegration. If he had according to the spiritual logic of the LOTR he would have defeated the White Council there and then, so for me Galadriel is dealing with a teenage Sauron and Gandalfs drawing him out has worked.
However Sauron has also initiated his first act of open war attempting to use his leader of legions to take the mountain and with Smaug alive wreck havoc in the North.
I think that logic on the part of the film makers is flawed and it does not work for me Sauron would not reveal his plans or go to war until he was ready and even then Aragorn forced him to react a little earlier than he intended.
Sauron has been sponsoring and encouraging war on Arnor and Gondor during his re integration and explicitly sent his emissaries to the Wainriders but never has embarked on open war and does not until 3019. This open war policy is a very substantial change to Saurons arc in my view.
If however I accept PJ's view that Sauron has initiated the first act of the war of the ring cf featurette and Galadriel believes he has returned to the East and Elrond has advised contacting Gondor then the opening films scenes of LOTR on this matter are going to look interesting. I grant you i will now need to sit down and see if the reverse engineering fits but I have a feeling they have pushed Sauron to far forward. Whether they have or not at a spiritual philosophical level it ain't working for me.
There was of course no reason to take this path the battle of five armies could have been prosecuted like the book by a single antagonist Bolg a highly intelligent Orc who sponsored and encouraged by a teenage Sauron, but not controlled by him, was prosecuting a racially motivated war against the Dwarves which he and his father had been involved in for centuries. He had retaken Gunderbad and co existed in Moria with the Balrog. Once Oakenshield had crossed the mountains he knew where he was heading and would been galvanised to raise an army and be ready to attack Erebor. Once the dragon was felled he would then march on Erebor to take the next sacred site of the Dwarves and at a personal level find an opportunity to make him suffer through his kindred. His father/mentor died at the hands of Thorin and Thrain stood up to him despite endless torture in Dol Gulder until Sauron became involved but through Thorins heir there is chance to make him pay and then destroy the Oakenshield.
I would be grateful if you simply read this point as alternative. Since the beginning of the year I have been having enormous fun working on the narrative track of the film makers story and after the EE is released I will offer it for discussion as a positive piece of criticism of how in my view their story, not my fan fiction, could have been presented. In order to show respect to the film makers huge effort I have gone to enormous trouble in this critique and to date have spent 100 hours on it. But more of that in the winter.
The Ring
Gandalf returns to visit Bilbo for the first time in 2949. In the book there is no evidence of any ring discussion. You quote the passage from the LOTR which i am relying on and neither of us can be sure how those stories emerged or when. Two things i would say over the last 50 years (Thats my 50 years since the age of 10!)i have always taken those meeting to be spread out over the sixty years with Bilbo dissembling and modifying as the years go by which of course echoes the professors own experience !
In the film there is an immediate bare faced lie not a reinterpretation 10 20 30 years later. Hence its a jolt for me. Curiously I like the scene but when it was taken out of context and explained in one of the feature thats when I began to pursue its integrity.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Apr 26 2015, 6:34pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 26 2015, 6:48pm
Post #30 of 38
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I'm mystified - it could not be clearer.
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How can the Ring be said to make Bilbo lie "at once" if Bilbo does not lie "at once". How else can you possibly interpret this and what evidence do you have to the contrary? As far as I am aware there is none. I'm not sure what the fact that you have believed something erroneous for a long time brings to the matter. Surely what you would like the book to say cannot trump what it actually says?
Are you really suggesting that when Tolkien says "at once" he actually means many years/decades later?
On "open war", this is your term but you seem to be defining it arbitrarily. Sauron's forces were engaged in any number of "open wars" throughout the third age. In both mediums I'm struggling to imagine, for example, how the WK conquering half the North and fighting battles was not "open war". This is perhaps influenced by the fan fiction idea, where an idea has seemed appealing but isn't supported by the facts.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Apr 27 2015, 9:34am
Post #31 of 38
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Ring
As in my previous exchanges with you I have come to the conclusion you obviously like to argue for the sake of it.
"WHEN I AT LAST GOT THE TRUTH OUT OF HIM. I saw at once…
If your going to quote some thing keep it context. He did not get the truth out of him immediately.
Witch King
I wasted sometime re reading the appendices this weekend to ensure my understanding of Saurons history was accurate. Re read the appendices prior to 3018 he is sponsoring, encouraging others and some the witch king are operating under their own steam before Sauron has even begun to take shape.
1974
The witch king overruns Arthedain and takes Fornost.
2060
The power of Dol Gulder grows. The wise fear it maybe Sauron taking shape again.
3018
Sauron attacks Osgilaith. This is the prelude to the war of the ring and the witch king is allowed to show himself in this phase for the first time which is highly significant.
I will not respond again or to any of your other posts in the future. I am not interested in a game of bait and switch.
MODS could you lock this thread please thanks.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 27 2015, 12:46pm
Post #32 of 38
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I'm very confused why presenting facts is producing such a personal response.
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Yes Gandalf didn't get the truth from Bilbo immediately. That is not what I suggested.
Instead he heard the lie and recognised it as such.
"Gandalf, however, disbelieved Bilbo's first story, as soon as he heard it" (and we know that he heard it "at once").
I'm afraid that when declarative posts are made, such as "this did not happen in year X" and there is both evidence to the contrary and no quotes produced in support, that seems a perfectly reasonable thing to point out.
I fail to see the difference between Sauron "sponsoring" open war with the WK, the Easterlings, the Haradrim etc and sponsoring the war with the orcs at Erebor, There is no question that Sauron was still a threat to ME long before 2060 - that is why the Istari were sent and we know he had been operating from DG since around the year 1,000. It seems an entirely arbitrary distinction.
Apologies if pointing out inaccuracies annoys you so much. That is not my intent and I remain very puzzled by it.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 27 2015, 3:16pm
Post #33 of 38
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Looks like the discussion is exclusively between two people, so either continue via private message, or move on to other topics. Thanks.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Apr 27 2015, 5:27pm
Post #34 of 38
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I've been reading with interest, even if I don't comment //
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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 27 2015, 5:32pm
Post #35 of 38
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I would be curious to read your thoughts.
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I enjoy reading your posts so I'd be curious how you take the topic.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Apr 27 2015, 5:54pm
Post #37 of 38
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However, I don't really have any thing to add right now, and it sounds like Michelle would prefer that the topic be ended anyway.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 27 2015, 6:23pm
Post #38 of 38
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Cool. Works for me. 
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