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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 22 2015, 2:17pm
Post #1 of 6
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Once again, I question the time between Smaug & the Dwarves
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reclaiming Erebor. I have had this discussion before, and one of our regular posters provided a pretty good timeline for the movies. I'm referring to the fact that in the movie there seems to be less time between Smaug's taking over Erebor and the Dwarves reclaiming it. In AUJ, Thorin specifically says it's been 60 years since anyone has seen the dragon. WELL, what really shortens the time is the Laketowners being so familiar with Dale, e.g.: knowing about Stone Street, the Old Market and the Great Hall. Now, IF some of the older folks were still children at the time, then I could see them knowing about this, and maybe even telling their children & grandchildren about the streets of Dale. And I suppose that maybe, while wandering through the ruins you could get an idea of the layout, but unless there were street signs how would you know this was the Old Market or Stone Street? I can't help but think that once again, we're dealing with a much shorter period of time, between 60 - 70 years. But what does anyone else think? Is my logic all wrong?
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 22 2015, 8:51pm
Post #2 of 6
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The timeline of HAIR...for one thing. Keeping in mind that these are dwarves, far longer-lived than humans. Also the Laketown speech I think emphasizes the time that has passed "I remember this town in the great days of old..." and the Master talking about "Bard's ancestor"....also Bard says "I was born and bred on these waters..."- which Bard could not have been, unless his parents? grandparents had relocated from Dale, and we learn Bard is a descendent of Girion. And Thorin speaking "if the aim of men had been true that day...."
But re the HAIR:
VS.
(Evidently dwarves - especially the line of Durin - just keep getting better as the years pass.....   .)
As far as the street signs, from what I have seen of older U.S. cities - "markets" and squares seem to be places folks tend to orient themselves from. I've seen older buildings with numbers and other "signs" chiseled into them, and Dale being "peaceful and prosperous" and looking like it had artisans I suspect had good signage - and too, the WETA books talk about all the detail that went on in Laketown - the use of symbols on banners for instance, to accommodate the idea that in a trading city many folks would need symbols vs. a language for stores, streets, etc. So I think the same would have been true of Dale - there would have been remnants of civilization, even if we don't see them.
I can even imagine a displaced people instinctively looking for ways to orient themselves in Dale, as one of the first things they do - by recognizable streets and landmarks.
What niggles at me more is the time it takes Fili and the others to get to Erebor , e.g. Thorin's "been down there for days". I know this was discussed before, but still - oh, well. I suppose Kili - who is not 100% and is now on a difficult hike - would have slowed the party a bit, vs. Thorin & co. pushing through to the hidden door within a day. (And gee, wouldn't it have been nice (for me anyway) to have seen a little scene of the 4 dwarves camping out, maybe staring worriedly into the night campfire, maybe Kili finally asking Fili - "what if they are all gone..." *sniff* and Fili looking at his brother, grimly realizing he is now king...Oin and Bofur worried sick about their family members....*sigh* IMO a missed opportunity for some character building and emotion.)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 22 2015, 10:21pm
Post #3 of 6
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On the question of the Laketowners in Dale...
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I don't think the people's knowledge of street names is a problem in the circumstances we're seeing. I don't think it's even relevant to the timeline. Within the short time we actually see in the film those people have been uprooted, have walked to the ruined city with the few possessions they managed to salvage and have sorted themselves into a rough sort of organisation, with Bard as their leader. Part of organising people is knowing where they are - if he tells someone to go somewhere or fetch someone it's a whole lot easier if there's a direction he can give them, one they will both understand. And if you think about those few place names we do here, they're pretty basic - the Great Hall, the Old Market, Stone Street - just descriptions of the places. It's not as if he's saying Tottenham Court Road or Marble Arch, or something.
Factor into that the approaching battle. There's a scene in which Bard is training the Lakemen to use weapons from the Dale armoury: also there's a vast army of elves in the city. At that point knowing where you are and where to send people becomes even more crucial. They would have to establish a few place names in order to mount an effective defence - and from the way they all pull back to the city when things get rough they must have prepared for that possibility. There's nothing to say that those street names even were the original ones from before Smaug came. I'd say they're just scratch names made up to suit the present need.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 23 2015, 12:28am
Post #4 of 6
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Bomby likes to Think of PJ's Films...
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As a Highlight REEL?
Impossible to show&tell
Everything that went DOWN..
Much has to deleted, since
TOO MUCH Information
would bog down the Action.
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 23 2015, 1:46pm
Post #5 of 6
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Any excuse to post your wonderful pics is always a good excuse - thank you! And good reply, thanks, maybe I am just crazy. From what I could tell, Dale was better laid out than Laketown - don't know how you could find ANYTHING in Laketown, what a mess! Though I suppose it was a matter of hooking onto an existing building and adding another, don't know.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 23 2015, 2:41pm
Post #6 of 6
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If we accept the idea that the date of TA 2799 for the Battle of Moria/Azanulbizar (as given in the TH:DoS-EE bonus features) remains accurate then Smaug still occupied Lonely Mountain more than 140 years before Thorin begins the Quest of Erebor. You are right, though, in that the familiarity of the Lake-town survivors with the lay-out of Dale does seem odd so many generations later.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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