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**The Ring Goes South** - 1. ‘Now the tale of Nine is filled. In seven days the Company must depart.’

squire
Half-elven


Apr 20 2015, 6:42pm

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**The Ring Goes South** - 1. ‘Now the tale of Nine is filled. In seven days the Company must depart.’ Can't Post

Welcome to the Reading Room’s sixth discussion of The Lord of the Rings! This week we will read and discuss Chapter 3 of Book II: “The Ring Goes South”. Thanks to nowizardme for getting us past the massive roadblock called the Council of Elrond, at which it was decided that… well, as Bilbo sums it up at the beginning of this chapter, “nothing was decided beyond choosing poor Frodo and Sam.” So there is still a lot to be decided, it seems, before the Ring can even Go South. In fact, almost half this chapter takes place in Rivendell. Here is my schedule for the week:
Monday: 1. From the hobbits’ council to Elrond’s naming of the Company.
Tuesday: 2. The final week of preparation, and the Company departs Rivendell.
Wednesday: 3. From Rivendell to Hollin, where the birds appear to be looking for them.
Thursday: 4. They cross Hollin, ascend towards the pass, and are trapped by a blizzard.
Friday: 5. They struggle to get back down through the deep snow – defeated by Caradhras.

Since we can’t put the text of the chapter online here, I will summarize, section by section, and ask a few questions to get things rolling. As always, I ask anyone to add questions, observations, or thoughts of their own – as long as they are more or less on topic!

1.1 The hobbits discuss the Council
Summary: Pippin and Merry express their frustration at not being at the Council and not being told to accompany the Ring-bearer. Gandalf and Bilbo debate whether or not the Council was really all that informative to those who attended. Bilbo speculates that Frodo will be given more companions after Elrond’s scouts return.

Twice Pippin jokes that Elrond is the kind of ruler who keeps unruly folk ‘in chains’. Yet even in The Hobbit, the dwarves are simply locked up by the Elven King, not chained.
A. Where does Pippin, child of the no-crime-zone called the Shire, get the idea that criminals can be chained up?

Repeating his statement to Gandalf 24 hours earlier, Frodo now says that when he awoke from his coma he had “dreamed my task was done, and I could rest here, a long while, perhaps for good.” He also said then, “I have had a month of exile and adventure, and I find that has been as much as I want.” Yet as we saw, Frodo freely volunteered to continue with the Ring to Mordor.
B. When Frodo talks about his quest as a “more severe punishment”, what does he believe he is being punished for?

Gandalf scolds Bilbo for inattentiveness at the Council, and declares there were no real “eye-openers” for anyone there, except the heroics of the two hobbits, Frodo and Bilbo. Yet I can think of several scenes at the Council where I could swear some eyes opened in surprise.
C. Is Gandalf flattering the hobbits to encourage them to stick to their task, or is he too self-centered to put himself in the shoes of those less omniscient than him, or is he right that almost nothing at the Council actually surprised anyone there?

1.2 They will stay in Rivendell for a long time while the scouts are out
Summary: Gandalf explains that scouts have been sent to “scour the lands all round…before any move is made”, assuring Frodo that he will have “quite a long stay here.” Bilbo and Sam both note that means a winter journey, with Bilbo throwing in a bit of poetry about it. Gandalf elaborates that the Riders were “unhorsed and unmasked” by the flooded river, but were not destroyed, and so may still present a danger if they have remained in the area. He adds that he intends to be in Frodo’s company on the quest, but can’t promise anything yet. Bilbo and Frodo look forward to working together on their book, and debate whether the ending should be, or can be, happy or unpleasant. A description follows of how Rivendell heals travelers by removing fear and anxiety and focusing them on simple daily pleasures – with the ominous coda that the days, nevertheless, slip through autumn towards winter, with one odd red star shining more brightly every night to the south.

‘You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,’ said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go. – Opening of Chapter 3 of Book I.

‘So cheer up, Frodo! You will probably make quite a long stay here.’ [said the wizard] … So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. – Opening of Chapter 3 of Book II.

D. Why the contrast in urgency?

When winter first begins to bite
and stones crack in the frosty night,
when pools are black and trees are bare,
‘tis evil in the Wild to fare.

E. Did Bilbo write that, or is he quoting folklore?

F. Why is the symbolism of winter so important, that the story is put on hold for two months to ensure that the quest is a winter journey?

G. From what we know, via Gandalf here and Strider back at Bree and Weathertop, why are the Ringwraiths “less dangerous” without horses or cloaks?

H. Looking ahead from the perspective of readers on a second go-round, what are the differences and similarities between the hobbits’ perceptions of time and healing in Rivendell and Lothlorien?

Tolkien, in the text and in his other writings, makes it clear that Elrond and Galadriel’s Elven Rings, with their Power “to preserve all things unstained” as Elrond puts in at his Council, are the agents for the timeless quality of their lands. Now here is how the dwarves’ stay in Rivendell is described in The Hobbit, when the idea of the Elven Rings did not exist:
Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway. They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, and they found it hard to leave. Bilbo would gladly have stopped there for ever and ever – even supposing a wish would have taken him right back to his hobbit-hole without trouble. Yet there is little to tell about their stay. -- The Hobbit, III.

Here is what Frodo and his companions find during their stay in Rivendell in this chapter:
For a while the hobbits continued to talk and think of the past journey and of the perils that lay ahead; but such was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from their minds. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present. Health and hope grew strong in them, and they were content with each good day as it came, taking pleasure in every meal, and in every word and song.

I. Has the Elven Ring changed Rivendell, or did Rivendell create the Elven Ring?

Chestnuts:
J. What is that darned red star … eye … thingie, anyway?

1.3 The Scouts Report Back – the Riders are Gone from the North
Summary: After two months, in mid-December, the scouts begin to return. Within a wide range, described with enticing but vague geographic detail, they have found no sign of the presence of the Nazgul in the North. As well, summing up a discovery that must date within a week of Frodo’s arrival, we learn that eight of the nine black horses’ bodies were discovered in the riverbed, as well as one tattered black cloak. Gandalf recites what must be concluded: the Ringwraiths have retreated to Mordor, and the Dark Lord at best will only just now be sending new spies towards Rivendell to find the Ring. If the company leaves soon, it can evade the hunt.

K. How much of the new geography that we learn in this passage pays off later in the story?

L. Given the way Elves are perceived by most of the other Free Peoples, were they the best folk to use as scouts?

M. Do we ever hear, at any other point in the legendarium, of the pass over the Misty Mountains at the Gladden source?

Gandalf, in his tale to the Council, said to Radagast: “You were never a traveller, unless driven by great need.” Now, when things get dicey, he’s “not at home” at Rhosgobel.
N. OK, I give: where might Radagast have gone?

We will learn, of course, about the “strange country” that Elrohir and Elladan went to. For now it’s one of those patented Tolkien mysteries.
O. But were they really ‘scouting’ for Black Riders, or on a different mission entirely?

Gandalf says, after concluding that the Black Riders are well and truly gone from the North, “we must delay no longer”.
P. Does the perjorative term “delay” imply that Gandalf, perhaps in opposition to Elrond, has been chafing at the bit to get on the road before the Enemy gets his act together?

1.4 Elrond Assembles the Company
Summary: Elrond confirms that Frodo and Sam will take the Ring to Mordor. He offers little help, saying his power is reduced by the spread of the Shadow. But he does choose the hobbit’s companions, declaring that nine is the best number rather than a larger, armed force. He picks Gandalf, of course, but also a Dwarf, an Elf, and two Men to “represent the other Free Peoples of the World”: Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, and Boromir. At a loss for the final two, Elrond mulls sending two more Rivendell Elves but is challenged by Pippin who refuses to abandon Frodo. Gandalf and Elrond debate the sending of the two young hobbits, and Gandalf wins, saying their friendship must outweigh the wisdom of Elrond – who had, indeed, seen a role for the hobbits which was to warn and protect the Shire about the danger that is abroad. Elrond concedes, and declares “in seven days the Company must depart.”

Q. What power does Elrond have, if “under the Shadow all is dark to me” has meaning about districts that are hundreds of miles away from Rivendell?

Elrond says he “will send out messages, such as I can contrive, to those whom I know in the wide world”, but warns Frodo not to count on any results due to slow and uncertain delivery of the messages.
R. If time and distance are such a problem, why would Elrond wait until this moment to send out his messages?

Legolas and Gimli are only “willing” to go as far as the Misty Mountains; Aragorn and Boromir are on their way to Minas Tirith.
S. If Nine Walkers are to contest the Nine Riders, why are four of Frodo’s companions not expected to go all the way to Mordor?

Paul Kocher speculates in his Master of Middle-earth (1972) that Elrond is wise to include all the Free Peoples, who will act as ambassadors for Frodo to their various races. He also notes that Elrond chooses a relatively young Dwarf and Elf (both sons of characters from The Hobbit) on the theory that they will be more open to other cultures and carry less ‘ancient history’ of the old conflicts between their races.
T. Is this just a critic speculating, or do we see textual evidence for such statements about Elrond’s (Tolkien’s) design in creating the Fellowship?

Elrond muses about sending two more “of my household” to complete the number to nine. In The Hobbit, Elrond is not regarded as a true Elf:
The master of the house was an elf-friend – one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories … of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.-- The Hobbit, III.

U. Had he sent Merry and Pippin home, would Elrond have sent “half-elven” folk from his household, or full-blooded Elves (like Legolas or Glorfindel)?

V. Is Gandalf right that Glorfindel could be of no more use to Frodo as a companion in Mordor than Pippin?

For this last ‘what-if’ question, feel free to speculate using just the text of LotR, or go wild and bring in the drafts from HoME to bring up Tolkien’s way of crafting his plot as he wrote.
W. What would have happened to the story, as far as we can judge, had the two younger hobbits actually returned to the Shire to combat Lotho and Sharkey’s Men?

Tomorrow: We’re OFF! (“We go, we go!” “Yes, but you don’t go…” “We go, we go!” “But damme, you DON’T go!” “At last they really go!” – W. S. Gilbert, Pirates of Penzance)



squire online:
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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Apr 20 2015, 7:42pm

Post #2 of 17 (3242 views)
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A short start. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Where does Pippin, child of the no-crime-zone called the Shire, get the idea that criminals can be chained up?
Hmm. . . “Lockholes” in Michel Delving? Used mainly for storage – so they “say”! May have been temporary housing for Big People that eluded The Bounders! The Horror, the horror!

B. When Frodo talks about his quest as a “more severe punishment”, what does he believe he is being punished for?
Being a cousin to “Mad Baggins”, never having a job, using slave labor to prune his shrubs. . . etc.

C. Is Gandalf flattering the hobbits to encourage them to stick to their task, or is he too self-centered to put himself in the shoes of those less omniscient than him, or is he right that almost nothing at the Council actually surprised anyone there?
Scolding a 129 year-old for “inattentiveness” – FOR SHAME on YOU Gandalf!

1.2 They will stay in Rivendell for a long time while the scouts are out
SCOUTS? EXCUSES! They had to wait for Christmas Day. Elrond always got lots of goodies Christmas Eve…

E. Did Bilbo write that, or is he quoting folklore?
NEITHER! He plagiarized from Henry Wadsword Longfellow.

F. Why is the symbolism of winter so important, that the story is put on hold for two months to ensure that the quest is a winter journey?
YES! They needed to be able to hear “stones crack in the frosty night”. How are they to know if they are being sneaked up on? Besides, the story is not put on hold for two months - one but needs to turn the page!!

G. From what we know, via Gandalf here and Strider back at Bree and Weathertop, why are the Ringwraiths “less dangerous” without horses or cloaks?
OBVIOUS! The Ringwraiths were used to the sweltering heat of Mordor and Minas Morgul. They kept warm using their fur-lined black cloaks and cuddling with their horses, and without cloaks or horses would spend most of their time shivering – and anyone with the shivers is less dangerous. LOGIC STRIKES HOME….

Nuff! Thanks for chairing this chapter squire….

Seriousness may follow.. or not...Wink

'Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth, and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I. Come with me!' And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 21 2015, 8:57am

Post #3 of 17 (3214 views)
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Delays, delays [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for taking this chapter squire!

The hobbits discuss the Council
I'd thought that Frodo's "Punishment" comment related to Sam (that is he was rebutting the idea that Sam has been "rewarded"). I hadn't thought Frodo felt himself punished.

Where does Pippin get the idea of being chained up? I was remembering Francis Spuford's "The Child That Books Built". Spufford comments that a number of folk and fairy tales seem to involve child cruelty. He talks about anthropological work among a tribe that has a culture such that abandoning children would be utterly unthinkable, yet it still has tales in which children are cruelly abandoned. His idea is that these ideas arise for exploration because of basic human psychology - we don't have to have heard of real examples.

delays, delays
There is a certain kind of stop-go rhythm to the whole of LOTR: in fact, here's a quick analysis of how Frodo spends his 348 days from 12 April 3018 (when Gandalf tells him he has the One Ring & better destroy it) to 25 March 3019 (when it is destroyed):


The Ring spends roughly three-quarters of the time holed up somewhere rather than on the move: Frodo takes nearly half the time to leave Bag End, and about a fifth of it in Rivendell (counting from the Council the actual departure of the Fellowship). This is a bit harsh perhaps - one cannot be trekking through the wild all the time and some stops for reprovisioning are perhaps only realistic. But we do seem to alternate between things being urgent & waiting around.

That is , of course the classic description of a soldier's life, come to think of it.

The reason given for this particular delay in Rivendell is the need to scout for enemy forces. That makes sense to me to an extent - don't want to be trailed by a Black Rider, or ambushed by them soon. But the longer it takes to look around, the longer forces of Sauron and Saruman obviously have t take up position. And of course, Winter Is Coming....

So I'm not sure this delay adds up for reasons that are given in the text. One can infer other within-the-story reasons (e.g. Frodo needs repeated rests to regain his stamina) or think that Tolkien is up to something outside the frame of the story. I don't have a satisfying answer, though I do realise that the published chronology gives us leaving the Shire in autumn, the autumnal fog on the Barrow Downs, and spring in Ithilien; and those would be a loss, I think, had Tolkien decided to get Frodo on his way in spring 3018 (or some other different scheme).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 21 2015, 9:25am

Post #4 of 17 (3208 views)
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And what were the Black Riders doing all this time? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a hunch that worries about any remaining Riders might not really be the cause of hanging around in Rivendell. But Hammond and Scull (Readers Companion) quote Tolkien figuring out the Rider movements as follows:


Quote
Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) says:

Only the bodies of 8 horses were discovered; but also the raiment of the Captain. It is probable that the Captain took the one horse that remained (he may have had strength to withdraw it from the flood) and unclad, naked, invisible, rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed. The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. Help no doubt was sent out to the other Ringwraiths as they made their way back, and they were bidden to remain secret again. It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste.

Hammond and Scull - The Lord of the Rings. A Reader's Companion


I'm not sue this helps much -but I do like the idea of the surviving Rider needing to decide whether to stay on the scene to collect more information or to go back to Sauron with what he already knows: and the time that would take if the riders still have to travel by conventional physical means.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 21 2015, 4:50pm

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Elrond Assembles the Company [In reply to] Can't Post

What power does Elrond have, if “under the Shadow all is dark to me” has meaning about districts that are hundreds of miles away from Rivendell?

I assume he's able to do some sort of magic But it's never explained or referred to again.

(Doesn't Yoda similar problems have, that obscures everything the dark side does? Co-incidence do you think that, Hmmm?)

Who will be in the nine and why?

For that matter why nine not 8 or 10 or similar- is it a baseball team, and more or fewer members would forfeit the game?

(Hmmm - the Fellowship as a baseball team...)

Obviously that is silly, and there's no real reason Elrond can no longer include members of his household, once the 2 young hobbits are in. So we are dealing with symbolism here, rather than practicalities: I think Paul Kocher has it right, but that's an inference in the absence of anything I remember Elrond saying.

Do members count if they are never intend to go all the way on the tour? It seems so! I notice that Elrond is using those he has to hand, and are willing to volunteer. He hasn't used the last 2 months to send for anybody. My guess is this follows on from his assertion that his Council had been supernaturally convened: I think Elrond and Gandalf try to work out what to do by asking what is intended by fate/higher powers, because that way things will work out right. So the candidates he has to hand will prove to be the right ones. That's my best guess at how come they agree to include Pippin and Merry, and not someone who on the face of it would seem more useful.


...and of course that decision turns out to be a good one.

I recall researching Tolkien's various Fellowship lineup earlier - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=749635#749635 - if that's helpful. I was surprised that Tolkien never seems to have considered including Glorfindel, despite having built him up in The Flight To The Ford as a useful companion.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 21 2015, 10:06pm

Post #6 of 17 (3202 views)
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Gandalf's Pupils: A Field Trip to Mordor [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Where does Pippin, child of the no-crime-zone called the Shire, get the idea that criminals can be chained up?

Apparently Pippin got a peek at an advance copy of Bilbo’s Translations From the Elvish. Two of the most famousest of bad guys in it were chained up: Melkor and his evil twin Morgoth. (Spoiler: It didn't do any good.)


B. When Frodo talks about his quest as a “more severe punishment”, what does he believe he is being punished for?

Just as Gandalf tells Frodo “the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many – yours not least”, the sins of Bilbo may rule the fate of many, again Frodo’s not the least.


Gandalf scolds Bilbo for inattentiveness at the Council, and declares there were no real “eye-openers” for anyone there, except the heroics of the two hobbits, Frodo and Bilbo. Yet I can think of several scenes at the Council where I could swear some eyes opened in surprise.
C. Is Gandalf flattering the hobbits to encourage them to stick to their task, or is he too self-centered to put himself in the shoes of those less omniscient than him, or is he right that almost nothing at the Council actually surprised anyone there?


Gandalf knows he facilitated the heck out of that meeting!


‘You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,’ said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go. – Opening of Chapter 3 of Book I.

‘So cheer up, Frodo! You will probably make quite a long stay here.’ [said the wizard] … So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. – Opening of Chapter 3 of Book II.

D. Why the contrast in urgency?


Frodo (and more importantly the Ring) was dangerously exposed in the Shire. In Rivendell he and the Ring are protected, at least for a while, which is good because Gandalf needs the time to deal with the inevitable outbreak of what famed movie director Alfred Hitchcock dubbed “The Ice Box Moment”. That is, what all the Wise agreed was the way to go during the Council, discussed approvingly at dinner, remarked to each other how perfect a solution it was over brandy and tobacco, but suddenly, in the middle of the night, when they went downstairs to get a piece of cold chicken, had them suddenly staring blankly into the ice box going “Wait a minute!!!”


When winter first begins to bite
and stones crack in the frosty night,
when pools are black and trees are bare,
‘tis evil in the Wild to fare.

E. Did Bilbo write that, or is he quoting folklore?


It would seem to be something from the time of the Fell Winter. Shippey compares it to Shakespeare’s so-called Winter's Song (“When icicles hang by the wall”) from Love’s Labour’s Lost (Act V, scene 2) but that doesn’t make sense to me because one is pessimistic while the other is optimistic and besides the rhyme scheme really doesn’t match.


F. Why is the symbolism of winter so important, that the story is put on hold for two months to ensure that the quest is a winter journey?

Psychology. If they started out before the Winter Solstice they’d see the days getting shorter and filling with more darkness during their quest. Depression leads to defeatism. But this way they start out on the darkest day of the year so every day brings more sunshine and more warmth and pretty flowers and singing birds and baby bunnies so morale improves every day, except if they take a short cut through a dark pit or the bad guy thinks to throw up a cloud of darkness over the land but what are the odds?


G. From what we know, via Gandalf here and Strider back at Bree and Weathertop, why are the Ringwraiths “less dangerous” without horses or cloaks?

The Ringwraiths are shadows:


’Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants.’

And keep in mind the importance of the exact meaning of words to Tolkien. So rather than just changing their appearance by “disguise” (as for example Strider is described as doing), the Ringwraiths are wearing a “guise” or “shape”:

'"I have an urgent errand," he said. "My news is evil." Then he looked about him, as if the hedges might have ears. "Nazgûl," he whispered. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black."’

Indeed, they are otherwise “nothingness” unless somehow given “shape”:

`I know,' said Frodo. `They were terrible to behold! But why could we all see their horses?'
'Because they are real horses; just as the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.'


There’s something special about the robes they’re given in Mordor. It’s the robes that give them shape and substance, otherwise they could just raid the rooms of The Prancing Pony or the clotheslines of Bree and be right back in action with any old bedsheet:

'Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least,' said Gandalf. 'It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.’


H. Looking ahead from the perspective of readers on a second go-round, what are the differences and similarities between the hobbits’ perceptions of time and healing in Rivendell and Lothlorien?

'Where did you learn such tales, if all the land is empty and forgetful?' asked Peregrin. 'The birds and beasts do not tell tales of that son.'
'The heirs of Elendil do not forget all things past,' said Strider; 'and many more things than I can tell are remembered in Rivendell.'

-The Flight to the Ford

`How long do you think I shall have here?' said Frodo to Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
`Oh, I don't know. I can't count days in Rivendell,' said Bilbo.

-The Ring Goes South

For a while the hobbits continued to talk and think of the past journey and of the perils that lay ahead; but such was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from their minds. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present. Health and hope grew strong in them, and they were content with each good day as it came, taking pleasure in every meal, and in every word and song.
So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear.

-ibid

Though he walked and breathed, and about him living leaves and flowers were stirred by the same cool wind as fanned his face, Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien.
-Lothlórien.

Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers, and looking up at the sky. `It's very strange,' he murmured. `The Moon's the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it's out of its running, or I'm all wrong in my reckoning. You'll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we'd been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country.
`Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month. Anyone would think that time did not count in there! '
`And perhaps that was the way of it,' said Frodo. `In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon: only stars by night and sun by day.'
Legolas stirred in his boat. `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'
`But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. `The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'
'That should not have been said outside Lórien, not even to me,' said Aragorn. `Speak no more of it! But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.'

-The Great River

Now as the companions sat or walked together they spoke of Gandalf, and all that each had known and seen of him came clear before their minds. As they were healed of hurt and weariness of body the grief of their loss grew more keen.
-The Mirror of Galadriel

The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.
-The Council of Elrond


The two lands seem the same, it's just that the members of the Fellowship who have changed.


Tolkien, in the text and in his other writings, makes it clear that Elrond and Galadriel’s Elven Rings, with their Power “to preserve all things unstained” as Elrond puts in at his Council, are the agents for the timeless quality of their lands. Now here is how the dwarves’ stay in Rivendell is described in The Hobbit, when the idea of the Elven Rings did not exist:
Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway. They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, and they found it hard to leave. Bilbo would gladly have stopped there for ever and ever – even supposing a wish would have taken him right back to his hobbit-hole without trouble. Yet there is little to tell about their stay. -- The Hobbit, III.

Here is what Frodo and his companions find during their stay in Rivendell in this chapter:
For a while the hobbits continued to talk and think of the past journey and of the perils that lay ahead; but such was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from their minds. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present. Health and hope grew strong in them, and they were content with each good day as it came, taking pleasure in every meal, and in every word and song.


Oh. Never mind.


I. Has the Elven Ring changed Rivendell, or did Rivendell create the Elven Ring?

Yes. The Land and the Ring are One.


Chestnuts:
J. What is that darned red star … eye … thingie, anyway?


An alarm clock for Rivendell Elves:


Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song. Suddenly under the trees a fire sprang up with a red light.
'Come!' the Elves called to the hobbits. 'Come! Now is the time for speech and merriment!'


As well as for Wessex shepherds:

The Dog-star and Aldebaran, pointing to the restless Pleiades, were half-way up the Southern sky, and between them hung Orion, which gorgeous constellation never burnt more vividly than now, as it soared forth above the rim of the landscape. Castor and Pollux with their quiet shine were almost on the meridian: the barren and gloomy Square of Pegasus was creeping round to the north-west; far away through the plantation Vega sparkled like a lamp suspended amid the leafless trees, and Cassiopeia's chair stood daintily poised on the uppermost boughs.
"One o'clock," said Gabriel.

-Far From the Madding Crowd

Basically it’s the universe’s alarm clock telling Frodo it’s time to go:

But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.

BTW, note like Tolkien Thomas Hardy also became and possessive when people began to appropriate his “dream-country”:

In reprinting this story for a new edition I am reminded that it was in the chapters of "Far from the Madding Crowd" as they appeared month by month in a popular magazine, that I first ventured to adopt the word "Wessex" from the pages of early English history, and give it a fictitious significance as the existing name of the district once included in that extinct kingdom. …
I did not anticipate that this application of the word to a modern use would extend outside the chapters of my own chronicles. But the name was soon taken up elsewhere as a local designation.

Since then the appellation which I had thought to reserve to the horizons and landscapes of a merely realistic dream-country, has become more and more popular as a practical definition; and the dream-country has, by degrees, solidified into a utilitarian region which people can go to, take a house in, and write to the papers from. But I ask all good and gentle readers to be so kind as to forget this, and to refuse steadfastly to believe that there are any inhabitants of a Victorian Wessex outside the pages of this and the companion volumes in which they were first discovered.

-Preface to the 1895 edition


K. How much of the new geography that we learn in this passage pays off later in the story?

One does wonder why the Fellowship didn’t cross the mountains at the pass at the source of the Gladden River and drop by Radagast’s, and why the scouts were able to use the pass at Caradhras when the Fellowship couldn’t, and what exactly was the “strange country” the twins went to and what was it they brought back for Elrond’s eyes only? (Several well-thumbed novellas with titles like Elf Lust and Goblin Girl?)


L. Given the way Elves are perceived by most of the other Free Peoples, were they the best folk to use as scouts?

Well, they didn’t need sleep, and they could chat up the local flora and fauna for info.



M. Do we ever hear, at any other point in the legendarium, of the pass over the Misty Mountains at the Gladden source?


Sorta:

'[Gollum] wandered in loneliness, weeping a little for the hardness of the world, and he journeyed up the River, till he came to a stream that flowed down from the mountains, and he went that way. He caught fish in deep pools with invisible fingers and ate them raw. One day it was very hot, and as he was bending over a pool, he felt a burning on the back of his head) and a dazzling light from the water pained his wet eyes. He wondered at it, for he had almost forgotten about the Sun. Then for the last time he looked up and shook his fist at her.
'But as he lowered his eyes, he saw far above the tops of the Misty Mountains, out of which the stream came. And he thought suddenly: "It would be cool and shady under those mountains. The Sun could not watch me there. The roots of those mountains must be roots indeed; there must be great secrets buried there which have not been discovered since the beginning."
'So he journeyed by night up into the highlands, and he found a little cave out of which the dark stream ran; and he wormed his way like a maggot into the heart of the hills, and vanished out of all knowledge.’

-The Shadow of the Past


Gandalf, in his tale to the Council, said to Radagast: “You were never a traveller, unless driven by great need.” Now, when things get dicey, he’s “not at home” at Rhosgobel.
N. OK, I give: where might Radagast have gone?


I’m thinking the “strange country”. He probably met some young thing and settled down. About time.


We will learn, of course, about the “strange country” that Elrohir and Elladan went to. For now it’s one of those patented Tolkien mysteries.

What happens in Lorien, stays in Lorien.


O. But were they really ‘scouting’ for Black Riders,…

They disguised themselves as hobbits and carried luggage prominently labeled “Property of Mr. Baggins. If Found Please Return to The Shire. Postage Guaranteed.”

Didn’t work.


…or on a different mission entirely?

Elladan: It's 154 leagues to Lothlorien, we got a full bag of oats, half a pack of Old Toby, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Elrohir: Hit it.



Gandalf says, after concluding that the Black Riders are well and truly gone from the North, “we must delay no longer”.
P. Does the perjorative term “delay” imply that Gandalf, perhaps in opposition to Elrond, has been chafing at the bit to get on the road before the Enemy gets his act together?


“Gandalf Cunctator” is not pejorative! It’s fabulous!!


Q. What power does Elrond have, if “under the Shadow all is dark to me” has meaning about districts that are hundreds of miles away from Rivendell?

Sanwe-latya , aka Elven Telepathy.

I also wouldn’t put it past him to have a palantir hidden somewhere. His library has more relics stashed away than Warehouse 13, Lord Business, MIB, and the Bureau for Paranormal Research and Defense put together.


Elrond says he “will send out messages, such as I can contrive, to those whom I know in the wide world”, but warns Frodo not to count on any results due to slow and uncertain delivery of the messages.
R. If time and distance are such a problem, why would Elrond wait until this moment to send out his messages?


Sending them out earlier would be more dangerous if they “miscarry”. Gives the enemy more time to set traps. However, if the message gets to the intended recipient before the Fellowship arrives, they know to be ready to welcome them, and if the Fellowship is too late, they know to send out people to look for them.

Oddly enough, the guardians of Lothlorien were on watch because of messages from the earlier scouts (”messengers”?):

`But we have heard rumours of your coming, for the messengers of Elrond passed by Lórien on their way home up the Dimrill Stair.’
-Lothlorien

But apparently Celeborn and Galadruel kept the later messages under wraps:

`Also,' said Haldir, `they bring me a message from the Lord and Lady of the Galadhrim. You are all to walk free, even the dwarf Gimli. It seems that the Lady knows who and what is each member of your Company. New messages have come from Rivendell perhaps.'
-ibid


Legolas and Gimli are only “willing” to go as far as the Misty Mountains; Aragorn and Boromir are on their way to Minas Tirith.
S. If Nine Walkers are to contest the Nine Riders, why are four of Frodo’s companions not expected to go all the way to Mordor?


Only fair. Only five of the Nine Riders entered the Shire.


Paul Kocher speculates in his Master of Middle-earth (1972) that Elrond is wise to include all the Free Peoples, who will act as ambassadors for Frodo to their various races. He also notes that Elrond chooses a relatively young Dwarf and Elf (both sons of characters from The Hobbit) on the theory that they will be more open to other cultures and carry less ‘ancient history’ of the old conflicts between their races.
T. Is this just a critic speculating, or do we see textual evidence for such statements about Elrond’s (Tolkien’s) design in creating the Fellowship?


I think Elrond packs the Fellowship with Wizard’s Pupils. (And the one exception is the beloved brother of a Wizard’s Pupil.) Gimli and Legolas are indeed like cats and dogs, and would be at each other’s throats, but for Gandalf:

`Well, here we are at last! ' said Gandalf. 'Here the Elven-way from Hollin ended. Holly was the token of the people of that land, and they planted it here to mark the end of their domain; for the West-door was made chiefly for their use in their traffic with the Lords of Moria. Those were happier days, when there was still close friendship at times between folk of different race, even between Dwarves and Elves.'
'It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,' said Gimli.
'I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,' said Legolas.
'I have heard both,' said Gandalf; 'and I will not give judgment now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends…’


And wonder of wonders, they do. Because Gandalf asked them to.

They obviously love and respect Gandalf greatly. Other Elves and Dwarves (and other Men and Hobbits), probably wouldn’t so much.

Yes, the Fellowship is stacked in Gandalf’s favor. Yet irony of ironies, he is the first to fall.



Elrond muses about sending two more “of my household” to complete the number to nine. In The Hobbit, Elrond is not regarded as a true Elf:
The master of the house was an elf-friend – one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories … of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North. In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.-- The Hobbit, III.

U. Had he sent Merry and Pippin home, would Elrond have sent “half-elven” folk from his household, or full-blooded Elves (like Legolas or Glorfindel)?


How much of a Wizard’s Pupil, willing to subordinate themselves to Gandalf’s commands, would Glorfindel or Erestor have been? They both argued with him in the Council. Might they feel Wise enough to question him as an equal rather than obey without question during the quest? As for Elledan and Elrohir, their friendship would form a natural bloc with Aragorn that could have the confidence to challenge Gandalf’s decisions. (And worse, constantly remind Boromir how much more Elvish than Man Isildur’s Heir is.) On the other hand, any hobbit bloc would completely support Gandalf. And a lone Mirkwood Elf, and a young Ereborian Dwarf, no doubt already in awe from visits by the great Mithrandir/Tharkûn, would also support him unquestioningly.

Gandalf puts his reasoning quite cleverly: ”I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom.” More specifically, trust to their friendship towards Gandalf!


V. Is Gandalf right that Glorfindel could be of no more use to Frodo as a companion in Mordor than Pippin?

Even less. Frodo would naturally tend to defer to any suggestion by the great Elf-Lord Glorfindel. On the other hand, if Pippin suggested something stupid Frodo wouldn’t think twice in shooting him down.

The task is appointed to Frodo, and it is he who must choose the path of the Quest.


For this last ‘what-if’ question, feel free to speculate using just the text of LotR, or go wild and bring in the drafts from HoME to bring up Tolkien’s way of crafting his plot as he wrote.
W. What would have happened to the story, as far as we can judge, had the two younger hobbits actually returned to the Shire to combat Lotho and Sharkey’s Men?


Aragorn and Boromir head to Minas Tirith. They depose Denethor. Aragorn becomes King and mobilizes against Sauron. Denethor suicides and Boromir, blaming himself, sacrifices himself in battle.

Meanwhile, in Rohan Theoden falls and Grima becomes King. Eomer mysteriously dies in the dungeons. A royal wedding is announced. Grima wakes up after his wedding night with his throat cut. The widowed bride declares herself Queen Eowyn I, wipes out Saruman and his Uruk-hai, and declares independence from Gondor. The Ents remain asleep.

Erestor and Glorfindel accompany Frodo and Sam into Mordor. Erestor counsels caution, Glorfindel counsels boldness, and suddenly Ithilien bandits try to capture Frodo and Sam. Glorfindel easily wipes them out. (Including their leader who has an "F" monogram on his shirt.) They enter Minas Morgul and Glorfindel wipes out WiKi, his army, and the rest of the Nine. Glorfindel then kills Shelob and wipes out the garrison of Cirith Ungol. Finally Glorfindel kills Sauron and the rest of Mordor. Sickened by the massive carnage, Frodo claims the ring at Mount Doom. Gollum jumps him and bites off his finger. Glorfindel grabs Frodo. Gollum, trips and is about to fall into the lava, but manages to grab Glorfindel’s long golden hair. Unfortunately, just like at Gondolin, Glorfindel loses his balance and all three fall into the Cracks of Doom. Erestor decides to heck with all this and joins the Blue Wizards’ cult in the East.

Sam, despondent at being utterly useless throughout the quest, returns to the Shire. There he finds Merry and Pippin had indeed warned the hobbits, organized the defenses, and heavily militarized the Shire. The Ruffians are easily repulsed. Recognizing the vulnerability of the Shire’s borders, co-consuls M&P annex Bree, the Old Forest, the Trollshaws, and the Grey Havens. With them knowing the secret ways into and out of Rivendell, Imladris easily falls and the supremacy of Hobbit Hegemony is assured. Cut off from the Grey Havens, all the Elves of Middle-earth fade.

With the Passing of the Elves, feeling totally useless at everything, Sam drinks himself to death.

Rosie Cotton remains unmarried.

There is never a hobbit child named Elanor. Ever

Meanwhile, Lady Arwen heads for her wedding in Minas Tirith. But without the protection of Glorfindel and Erestor, her party easily falls prey to a large band of Ruffians. After her rescue, unable to stand the memory of her torment, Lady Arwen joins her mother in Valinor.

King Elessar, despairing at losing the love of his life, agrees to a political marriage to unite Gondor and Rohan. He wakes up after his wedding night with his throat cut and High Queen Eowyn I immediately marches on the Hobbit Hegemony.

Before she gets there, hidden agents foment a civil war between the Tooks and the Brandybucks. In the turmoil, the Rohan conquest of the Hobbit Hegemony is a walkover.

The lands of the East and the South pledge allegiance to the High Queen.

As the long years of her just but firm (very firm) reign pass, mortality looms and High Queen Eowyn I turns her gaze to the West….

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Apr 21 2015, 10:54pm

Post #7 of 17 (3173 views)
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The tales they were told [In reply to] Can't Post

It is said that the Hobbits were told tales from the Eldar days in, er, the reading room, but were they told the proper tales, warts and all? Because as those of us who have read the silmarillion know, in some of these, the Elves can behave very badly, those nasty sons of Feanor, or Thingol in Beren and Luthien for example. And were they told the really scary bits such as the werewolf in Sauron's dungeon? That might have given one or two of the companions pause for thought if they were paying attention.


(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Apr 21 2015, 10:55pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 11:41am

Post #8 of 17 (3131 views)
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Why don't hobbits have opinions about what to do with the Ring? [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo feels punished that he has to go destroy it, and M&P are upset that they're left out of the adventure and insist on going, so they have feelings about the situation. Yet unlike the other faulty mortals like Gloin and Boromir, who talk about using the Ring instead of destroying it, why don't the hobbits voice an opinion? Bilbo had no problem speaking up in the Council when he wanted to, but he never suggested keeping the Ring safe in Rivendell, or hiding it in Erebor, or anywhere else.

Merry, who's more worlldly than most, doesn't question the quest's objective at all and just wants to join in, but isn't a magic ring that makes you invisible and gives you long life something a hobbit would want to keep? They could argue, "So if any Orcs come snooping around the Shire, just put on your Ring and escape." Not that it would be a good argument, but the hobbits didn't come up with anything at all.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 11:47am

Post #9 of 17 (3127 views)
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Contrasts in urgency [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf urged Frodo to get out of the Shire because he knew it couldn't be defended. Rivendell can be. The latter is also a place of healing, and Frodo needs who-knows-how-much time to recover from nearly becoming a hobbit-wraith. Whether they delayed to gather news or not, they needed convalescent time for the Ring-bearer.

What I find odd is Gandalf saying initially to the hobbits that he might on the quest (because they needed someone else with intelligence), but wasn't emphatic about it. Honestly, what else was he going to do if he didn't lead Frodo to Mt Doom. Give him a map and a pat on the back? Sit in Rivendell and smoke a pipe? Given that his Prime Mission is to destroy Sauron, how could he contemplate sitting this one out?


sador
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 2:12pm

Post #10 of 17 (3132 views)
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Taking off [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Where does Pippin, child of the no-crime-zone called the Shire, get the idea that criminals can be chained up?
I'm not quite sure, but apparently Aragorn assumes he knows the concept well enough:


Quote

One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters.

- Flotsam and Jetsam

B. When Frodo talks about his quest as a “more severe punishment”, what does he believe he is being punished for?
Maggott's mushrooms?

C. Is Gandalf flattering the hobbits to encourage them to stick to their task, or is he too self-centered to put himself in the shoes of those less omniscient than him, or is he right that almost nothing at the Council actually surprised anyone there?

Flattering, of course.
Boromir for one had several eye-openers, and Aragorn was surprised by Legolas' news.

D. Why the contrast in urgency?
Perhaps Gandalf is in no rush to leave himself.

E. Did Bilbo write that, or is he quoting folklore?
I'm sure Tolkien would ascribe that poem to him, if he had a chance.


I kind of like Shippey's Shakespearean comparison, despite Darkstone's quibbles (in this thread).

F. Why is the symbolism of winter so important, that the story is put on hold for two months to ensure that the quest is a winter journey?
Christmas, of course.


Also, that way the redemption will occur at spring.

G. From what we know, via Gandalf here and Strider back at Bree and Weathertop, why are the Ringwraiths “less dangerous” without horses or cloaks?
We don't really know.

It appears that the horses are the medium through which they connect with the material world, and the cloaks are important to cover their nothingness (whatever that means).
But this still doesn't explain anything.

H. Looking ahead from the perspective of readers on a second go-round, what are the differences and similarities between the hobbits’ perceptions of time and healing in Rivendell and Lothlorien?
Rivendell seems to be more of a healing refuge. Lorien is too otherworldly.


I. Has the Elven Ring changed Rivendell, or did Rivendell create the Elven Ring?
Of course, the second - in JRRT's imagination.
And both are well-defended, somehow. So much for elven-rings being non-military.


J. What is that darned red star … eye … thingie, anyway?

Quote
I am the eye in the sky, looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules, dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind
And I don't need to see anymore, to know that
I can read your mind (looking at you)

Well, this is supposed to be a mystery. It might just be Red Borgil, or Aldebaran. (Alan Parsons' Project song is preceded by an instrumental called Sirius, whatever that means).

But on a second reading, it inevitably makes one think of the Red Eye.

K. How much of the new geography that we learn in this passage pays off later in the story?
Hardly any.

But I'm not sure why the Riders been accounted for means that the company can set out undetected. What about Saruman?

L. Given the way Elves are perceived by most of the other Free Peoples, were they the best folk to use as scouts?

These lands are uninhabited. This is no objection.

M. Do we ever hear, at any other point in the legendarium, of the pass over the Misty Mountains at the Gladden source?
About every time we discuss A Journey in the Dark, I object to Gandalf's statement that up north there are no more passes before Rivendell.

N. OK, I give: where might Radagast have gone?
He could have been consulting with Gwaihir, planning the trip from the Misty Mountains to Mordor (per Darkstone's reading of 'Fly you fools', which somebody seems to have taken seriously lately).
Or else Sebastian the hedgehog had gotten himself into trouble again.

Or simply, compared to Gandalf he was no great traveller. But that still doesn't mean he was a stay-at-home person.
On the other hand, the name sounds oddly similar to Ranugad Galbasi, which means 'Hamfast', or 'stay-at-home'. Hmm.

O. But were they really ‘scouting’ for Black Riders, or on a different mission entirely?
Well, I'm not sure why the secrecy about Lorien. Wasn't it named in the two previous chapters?

P. Does the perjorative term “delay” imply that Gandalf, perhaps in opposition to Elrond, has been chafing at the bit to get on the road before the Enemy gets his act together?
Interesting thought. Could be.

Q. What power does Elrond have, if “under the Shadow all is dark to me” has meaning about districts that are hundreds of miles away from Rivendell?
I don't knopw. I never investigated elvish magic thoroughly.

R. If time and distance are such a problem, why would Elrond wait until this moment to send out his messages?
Gildor's messages were pretty efficient.
Elrond is just warning Frodo not to count on too much.

S. If Nine Walkers are to contest the Nine Riders, why are four of Frodo’s companions not expected to go all the way to Mordor?
Well, they did end up intending to go much further.

It's just Elrond's way to state they are going out of free choice.

T. Is this just a critic speculating, or do we see textual evidence for such statements about Elrond’s (Tolkien’s) design in creating the Fellowship?
I assumed that Legolas had to go back, and Gloin was too old to take they way back at winter.
Kocher's theory does make sense, but I do not see any textual basis for it.
And Gimli's words in The Voice of Saruman implies that Legolas and he did see themselves as delegates of a sort, represing their peoples, rather than as Elrond's emissaries.

U. Had he sent Merry and Pippin home, would Elrond have sent “half-elven” folk from his household, or full-blooded Elves (like Legolas or Glorfindel)?
He says members of his household.

V. Is Gandalf right that Glorfindel could be of no more use to Frodo as a companion in Mordor than Pippin?

For one thing, he would prevent Gollum from coming near. And then they would reach the Gate, and then, err...

W. What would have happened to the story, as far as we can judge, had the two younger hobbits actually returned to the Shire to combat Lotho and Sharkey’s Men?
Well, I can't compete with Darkstone's alternative history.
I will only add that rather than a young New Zealand horror-filmmaker making a trilogy of movies, and his fortune out of the story, I guess that a couple of American screenwriters would assemble a huge cast, and make it into a television series with plenty of nudity and violence.

I rather prefer what we've got.








BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 6:04pm

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As the long years of her just but firm (very firm) reign pass, mortality looms and High Queen Eowyn I turns her gaze to the West….

LaughLaughLaugh



Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 12:47am

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A. Where does Pippin, child of the no-crime-zone called the Shire, get the idea that criminals can be chained up?
I wonder if we can file this under Anachronisms.



B. When Frodo talks about his quest as a “more severe punishment”, what does he believe he is being punished for?
Is he accepting the yoke for his family: for Bilbo's finding and keeping of the Ring?


C. Is Gandalf flattering the hobbits to encourage them to stick to their task, or is he too self-centered to put himself in the shoes of those less omniscient than him, or is he right that almost nothing at the Council actually surprised anyone there?

I think its a roundabout way of getting the idea that he himself is quite aware of more things than these Hobbits give him credit for. Instead of flattery it is almost like bursting any little balloon of self-importance Bilbo might be feeling. A very Gandalf thing to do.




‘You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,’ said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go. – Opening of Chapter 3 of Book I.
‘So cheer up, Frodo! You will probably make quite a long stay here.’ [said the wizard] … So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. – Opening of Chapter 3 of Book II.
D. Why the contrast in urgency?
Because Frodo is now safely stowed in Rivendell: different than at loose ends, unmonitored, in The Shire.


When winter first begins to bite
and stones crack in the frosty night,
when pools are black and trees are bare,
‘tis evil in the Wild to fare.
E. Did Bilbo write that, or is he quoting folklore?

My gut feeling is that Bilbo wrote it. Its very much his metre.


F. Why is the symbolism of winter so important, that the story is put on hold for two months to ensure that the quest is a winter journey?

I think the timing of the journey to conclude in Spring and near Easter maybe, with the rebirth on the catholic calendar, is what drives this part of the scheduling: so the end dictates the means.



G. From what we know, via Gandalf here and Strider back at Bree and Weathertop, why are the Ringwraiths “less dangerous” without horses or cloaks?
Presumably because unless one is an Elf, and one of power on the Other Side, they cannot be perceived and likely cannot interact or use their major weapon: fear. So they are less dangerous to the common man, as it were.


H. Looking ahead from the perspective of readers on a second go-round, what are the differences and similarities between the hobbits’ perceptions of time and healing in Rivendell and Lothlorien?

Similar in that Time, thus the sense and motion of decay, does not matter. While the mortals are in these Ring-governed lands, they glimpse the luxury of immortality, where Time has no power. I think there are more similarities than differences, if you account for the changed tone from Th to LOTR.


I. Has the Elven Ring changed Rivendell, or did Rivendell create the Elven Ring?

Fascinating question. My first response is that Vilya brings to Elrond more of what he already possesses: a power of survival and renewal, which he has needed in his own lifetime.



J. What is that darned red star … eye … thingie, anyway?

Foreshadowing. *dum dum dummmm*



K. How much of the new geography that we learn in this passage pays off later in the story? It wasn't much for me...sometimes I'm as bad as Pippin with map following. Crazy




L. Given the way Elves are perceived by most of the other Free Peoples, were they the best folk to use as scouts?

They are said to be contacting both the Dunedain and Thranduil's folk: so I think their reception would be effective. Sending them to Rohan, or even Gondor or the Iron Hills, maybe not so much.



M. Do we ever hear, at any other point in the legendarium, of the pass over the Misty Mountains at the Gladden source?

Is Redhorn where Celebrian was taken by Orcs? Another reason for it to be a place of cruelty.




N. OK, I give: where might Radagast have gone?

Got me too. Is he out of the loop and still doing recon work to send to Saruman? I hope not.



O. But were they really ‘scouting’ for Black Riders, or on a different mission entirely?

Since they have never forgotten the Redhorn Pass, I think their constant mission is the hunting of Orcs. But this would not be something Elrond would want discussed I am sure.


P. Does the perjorative term “delay” imply that Gandalf, perhaps in opposition to Elrond, has been chafing at the bit to get on the road before the Enemy gets his act together?

It may well be that. On the other hand, even if no one was 'delaying' that may be Gandalf's gruff turn of phrase.


Q. What power does Elrond have, if “under the Shadow all is dark to me” has meaning about districts that are hundreds of miles away from Rivendell?

Some sense of foresight in the setting of the Nine.


R. If time and distance are such a problem, why would Elrond wait until this moment to send out his messages?

Can it be lack of belief that the Ring is what it was said to be by Gandalf? Combined with the literary need for the late start date.



S. If Nine Walkers are to contest the Nine Riders, why are four of Frodo’s companions not expected to go all the way to Mordor?

Nine vs. nine, but I think the die is cast that Frodo will go to the Fire alone, or nearly so. Aragorn has the inside track, and that is even what he says - though his destination will change from the plan here, it will not be to accompany Frodo all the way.




T. Is this just a critic speculating, or do we see textual evidence for such statements about Elrond’s (Tolkien’s) design in creating the Fellowship?

There is that bit from Elrond about resurrecting all the grievances of the two races...


U. Had he sent Merry and Pippin home, would Elrond have sent “half-elven” folk from his household, or full-blooded Elves (like Legolas or Glorfindel)?

Glorfindel it seems is already nixed as a candidate. Lesser known Elves then?



V. Is Gandalf right that Glorfindel could be of no more use to Frodo as a companion in Mordor than Pippin?

I think so, for what has to be achieved. The drawing of the Eye by one such as Glorfindel would doom the Quest, more so the closer they got to Sauron I would guess.



W. What would have happened to the story, as far as we can judge, had the two younger hobbits actually returned to the Shire to combat Lotho and Sharkey’s Men?

The success of the Scouring depends on all that came before, in shaping and teaching Merry and Pippin about the world, and how to fight evil. Wet-behind-the-ears Hobbits sent back home then would have not been of any practical use. As upper-crust Brandybuck cousins they might have simply ended up in the cells with Fatty. The Scouring is the real-world type rite of passage; without the military mind of post-journey Merry it would never have happened.







Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 2:29am

Post #13 of 17 (3045 views)
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I think he just likes keeping his hand close [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

What I find odd is Gandalf saying initially to the hobbits that he might on the quest (because they needed someone else with intelligence), but wasn't emphatic about it. Honestly, what else was he going to do if he didn't lead Frodo to Mt Doom. Give him a map and a pat on the back? Sit in Rivendell and smoke a pipe? Given that his Prime Mission is to destroy Sauron, how could he contemplate sitting this one out?


and rather like that comment about everyone being surprised but him, he always seems to take the wind out of windy sails, so to speak. My guess is it was his intention to go all along.







CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 11:11am

Post #14 of 17 (3006 views)
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You're probably right [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf has to keep up the aura of subtlely in "subtle and quick to anger." So he's stage-acting here. I can't imagine Aragorn going on the quest and Gandalf taking a vacation with Radagast.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 11:14am

Post #15 of 17 (3008 views)
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I love that pie chart! [In reply to] Can't Post

But Frodo's publicist may not. It makes him seem more like a lazy dude than an ardent, suffering hero.

And I really like your observation on this being what a soldier's life is--a little action and lots of waiting around. So true!


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 3:43pm

Post #16 of 17 (2999 views)
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Frodo's not the only one to dislike the chart [In reply to] Can't Post

The attitude of Hobbits to Pie Charts:


~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 23 2015, 6:44pm

Post #17 of 17 (2987 views)
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That is great. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 





 
 

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