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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 12:10pm
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Middle-earth Shadow of Mordor lore questions
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I recently completed the game Middle-earth shadow of mordor and, after reading the lore sections in the Appendices part of the game and hearing Talion speaking after finding some artifacts, I have some questions (I know most things in the game are non canon, I just want to hear your suggestions/answers for these questions :) ) :
1. In Barad Nurn's lore it is said that it was built to deter invading fleets travelling up the Gurthrant river from the south. I know there are four rivers that flowed into the Sea of Nurnen, but they were not named. However, in MERP I read the Southwestern tributary was named Gurthrant, while the Southern river was named Culduin. So, is it that probably in the game Gurthrant is the Southern river? And also, how could fleets travel up the Gurthrant from the south when there was the ephel duath blocking the way? I read somewhere that there is a pass named Nargil Pass through the Southern Ephel Duath that allows passage between Harad and Nurn, at the source of the Southern tributary of the Sea of Nurnen; is there another river connecting to Gurthrant through that pass?
2. After picking up a certain artifact in the Sea of Nurnen, Talion says that the rivers of this sea reach beyond the ephel duath, and that the Tribesmen, who are supposed descendants of the Coursairs of Umbar, can travel along these rivers out of mordor and go to Minas Ithil. In the Black Captains lore, it says they temporarily fill the roles of the Nazgul who were temporarily defeated by the White Council at Dol Guldur; so, maybe Minas Morgul is still Minas Ithil following part of the Hobbit movies chronology?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 1:55pm
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Interesting observation. The question would seem to be, did the Nazgul capture Minas Ithil in the film-continuity before their defeat by the Men of the North?
Presumably, the fall of Angmar and imprisonment of the Nine were the events that led to the 400 years of peace leading up to the events of the Hobbit trilogy. In Tolkien's canon Minas Ithil was captured in TA 2002, which would have been well before then. It is possible that the Nazgul took the fortress and the Black Captains held Minas Morgul during the period while the Ringwraiths were entombed at the High Fells. Does this work?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 2:17pm
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Middle-earth Shadow of Mordor lore questions
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That's a good theory, but in Shadow of Mordor Talion names it Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Moon, so most likely it was still uncorrupted; my theory was also that they had all been stationed in Angmar, and all of them fell at the Assault on Carn Dum, after which they were imprisoned in the High Fells, which I think may be somewhere near Mount Gram, and recently had beem revived at the time of the Hobbit AUJ. So, at least IMO, they only captured Minas Ithil after the battle of the five armies.
But I'm open to theories since it's not confirmed canon :) I'm interested to hear suggestions on the first question, too, about the Gurthrant river, since it has gotten me totally confused.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 3:08pm
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Well, the game-canon is based on the films, but they need not agree in every respect. I doubt that Peter Jackson worked out the specific details about when Minas Ithil became Minas Morgul in respect to his film series, but it was long enough ago to make the fortress a dark and forbidding place by the time of the War of the Ring. It does sound as though, I must admit, that the fortress might have fallen much later in the film/game universe, perhaps soon after Sauron returns to Mordor.
1. In Barad Nurn's lore it is said that it was built to deter invading fleets travelling up the Gurthrant river from the south. I know there are four rivers that flowed into the Sea of Nurnen, but they were not named. However, in MERP I read the Southwestern tributary was named Gurthrant, while the Southern river was named Culduin. So, is it that probably in the game Gurthrant is the Southern river? And also, how could fleets travel up the Gurthrant from the south when there was the ephel duath blocking the way? I read somewhere that there is a pass named Nargil Pass through the Southern Ephel Duath that allows passage between Harad and Nurn, at the source of the Southern tributary of the Sea of Nurnen; is there another river connecting to Gurthrant through that pass? It certainly does seem that one or more of the game designers are familiar with MERP and borrowed from it. It is said for the game that Barad Nurn was built by Gondor for defense against a fleet coming up the River Gurthrant, so I would think that it is the same river identified in MERP that begins in the Mountains of Shadow a bit south of the source of the River Poros in Southern Ithilien. The Nargil Pass is named for the River Nargil which for game purposes seems to begin near the source of the southern-flowing River Harnen. I can only conjecture that there is another, secret, or at least seldom-used, pass near the source of the River Gurthrant.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 3:56pm
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River travelling through Gurthrant
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I noticed about information borrowed from Merp, too. Now, I wonder, was there (at least according to the game) another river connecting with the Gurthrant in a secret pass in the Ephel Duath (it's the only way, imo, Corsairs of Umbar could have entered Mordor)?
{IMG}http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3160/3159796/thumb_620x2000/Smaug.png{/IMG}
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 4:06pm
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I noticed about information borrowed from Merp, too. Now, I wonder, was there (at least according to the game) another river connecting with the Gurthrant in a secret pass in the Ephel Duath (it's the only way, imo, Corsairs of Umbar could have entered Mordor)? I wonder if our hypothetical pass near the Gurthrant might have been used to port light vessels overland from the River Poros? However, rivers tend to be unnavigable near their mountain sources where they are swift and narrow. It seems more likely that Men from Umbar would have crossed into Mordor either mounted or on foot than by boat.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 4:30pm
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Yes they could have come mounted or on foot, but the lore says fleets, so do you think probably there really could have been a way to transport ships from the river Poros to the river Gurthrant through this pass?
{IMG}http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3160/3159796/thumb_620x2000/Smaug.png{/IMG}
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on Apr 19 2015, 4:34pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 4:47pm
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Yes they could have come mounted or on foot, but the lore says fleets, so do you think probably there really could have been a way to transport ships from the river Poros to the river Gurthrant through this pass? It does seem improbable. Surely a navigable waterway through the Mountains of Shadow would be know to the Men of Gondor. A portage seems like the only possibility. Perhaps the idea was that soldiers would debark at the base of the range and proceed on foot. I don't think that the game designers put enough thought into this.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 5:13pm
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First, do you know where can I find better resolution/HD version of this map, because the Nurnen rivers are named there: http://www.danielreeve.co.nz/LOTR/Maps/images/Merch3.jpg
Well, according to lore portage is all I can come up with; most probably they ported their ships to the beginning of the Gurthrant river, and then travelled on them to the Sea of Nurnen. And, yeah, they really did not put much thought into it :D Well, Gurthrant question (partially)solved ;) Now, another question popping up: where exactly is the Ered Glamhoth located? Merp wiki states it's at the end of the Southern Ephel Duath, is it true ingame? And also, game lore states that Fort Morn connected Thaurband to the west with Norgroth to the north and with the Eastern Guard along the Khand road; now, on the real Middle-earth map Thaurband would be located north east of Fort Morn's (supposed) location, but how can it connect it with Norgroth and the Eastern Guard - by road or sea travelling?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 6:22pm
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I found a 1600 X 1200 version of your map, but it obscures the very part of Mordor that you probably want to see: http://thegreatvoid.net/...en/Maps/Mordor_1.jpg.
Unfortunately, I don't have any MERP supplements that cover central Mordor, much less the Sea of Nurnen.
As far as I can tell, the Ered Glamhoth remains the range in southern Mordor that separates it from Khand. It is not clear where the Ered Duath ends and the Ered Glamhoth begins.
I can't help you with Fort Morn; I'm having trouble finding just where it is supposed to be located.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 6:51pm
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Yep, I know that map, but sadly it misses out the Sea of Nurnen rivers.
About Fort Morn, as the place where the Gurthrant river flows into the Sea of Nurnen is located in the game parallel to and north of the Fort, probably it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a possible location for Fort Morn; by the way I too want to find possible locations for Fort Morn, Nurnen Fishery and Barad Nurn :) and also, do you think that, as in Merp wiki it was stated that near the Gurthrant river lived many Haradrim during war time, because of that one region ingame is named Harad Basin?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 7:14pm
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Yep, I know that map, but sadly it misses out the Sea of Nurnen rivers.
About Fort Morn, as the place where the Gurthrant river flows into the Sea of Nurnen is located in the game parallel to and north of the Fort, probably it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a possible location for Fort Morn; by the way I too want to find possible locations for Fort Morn, Nurnen Fishery and Barad Nurn :) and also, do you think that, as in Merp wiki it was stated that near the Gurthrant river lived many Haradrim during war time, because of that one region ingame is named Harad Basin? I really couldn't say about Fort Morn or those other game locations. It would make sense for Sauron to station Haradrim troops in Mordor near South Gondor during the War. The Ash Plain to the north was the most fertile region of Mordor and, with slave-labor, would furnish food for the soldiers.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 7:49pm
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Celebrimbor, his realm and Gondor
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Thanks for the info, you answered most, if not all, of my questions regarding Middle-earth Shadow of Mordor lore :D
Now, a different question: do you find the look of Celebrimbor (while alive) canon? Or, is he depicted lore-breakingly in the game? And, why are there elven towers, Barad Silme, in Mordor? I thought his kingdom was in Eregion?
Also, if Minas Morgul was still Ithil, maybe Cirith Ungol was still under control of Gondor, right? And, why do you think the Black gate looks white, built in Gondorian style, whyle in LOTR movies it is ironish and black?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 8:19pm
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I'm not sure that Tolkien gave much of a physical description for Celebrimbor. I would go to the source, though, if I wanted to check.
I have the impression that the towers of Barad Silme were created for the game. We could speculate that the Elves who were taking instruction from Annatar (Sauron in disguise) built the towers in Mordor at his behest.
I am guessing that Gondor abandoned the Tower of Cirith Ungol because it became too depleted after the Great Plague and other events in the Third Age to keep it manned. The timing for this might remain unchanged for the background of the films.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 8:30pm
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Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate
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I guessed Cirith Ungol could have been abandoned due to the Great Plague, however, I meant do you think it was captured by Sauron's minions a time after he returned to Mordor, like Minas Ithil (according to the game and the movies)?
Also, good speculation about the towers being built by elves commanded by Annatar; I read somewhere that after Celebrimbor stole the ring from Sauron (in the game) he founded his own realm within Mordor, and that these towers were remnants of it; but your speculation is highly possible, too :)
Also, do you know why the Black Gate is white, built in Gondorian style in the game? Was it destroyed during the War of the Last Alliance and rebuilt afterwards?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 8:50pm
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Gondor's Troubles and the Black Gate
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I'm guessing that the Plague might have spread through Middle-earth of the films in TA 1636-37 just as it did in Tolkien's legendarium. Before that was the Kin-strife of 1432-48 and later came the invasions of the Wainriders from 1851 to 1954. These events left Gondor greatly weakened and put much strain on its defenses.
I assumed that the Black Gate was built by Sauron and always looked about as we saw it in LotR. However, if the forts before the Gate were originally built by Gondor then the Gate might have been as well. Since the Gate is made of iron, though, I doubt that it was ever white.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 8:58pm
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I read on Tolkien Gateway and the LOTR wiki that the Black Gate was redesigned to prevent anything evil from leaving or entering Mordor, which may mean that they made it to open from the outside to the inside, basically shutting Mordor completely; so can it be assumed that maybe they made it even more impenetrable by adding an extra layer of stone over the iron (which can explain the gate's look in Shadow of Mordor)?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 9:06pm
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That is probably as good a guess as any.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 9:29pm
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Concerning the depiction of Mount Doom (in the opening video of the game, where it is surrounded by grass, trees, and holes once filled with lava but now filled with water: http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/1d/24/1d2488ad44cdd8e997e95ef1264cc5ea.jpg?itok=b38ge52T) and the rocky, but lush Sea of Nurnen - do you find them as possible depictions? And, although grass may have grown even near Mount Doom, considering it was a volcano and land near volvanoes was lush, is it possible that the ruins of Barad Dur remaines lifeless, like here: http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/middle-earth-shadow-of-mordor/6/61/Locations_%285%29.jpg
?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2015, 9:50pm
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Your image might be from a period during which Mount Doom was dormant. Also, the perspective seems to be from some distance away, perhaps from the Ash Mountains. The Ash Plain probably only seemed lush compared to the rest of Mordor, it being the most fertile land in the region.
Barad-dur is a cursed location and it might well remain blighted at all times, even well into the Fourth Age.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 10:06pm
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Yes, it was dormant before and during the time of Middle-earth Shadow of mordor, so the lands around Mount Doom and its slopes may have been covered in grass during Sauron's absence from Mordor. Also, I had forgotten that Barad Dur was a cursed place, so that probably really is why it looks blighted in Sauron's absence, that explains it.
One last question: this is what Carach Angren (the Isenmouthe) looks like ingame: http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/middle-earth-shadow-of-mordor/3/3c/Locations_%286%29.jpg
Does it correspond to Tolkien's description of it (if any)?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 20 2015, 2:18am
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The image seems reasonably close to Tolkien's description of the Isenmouthe, possibly more elaborate than the Professor might have imagined it.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Apr 20 2015, 4:05am
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Well, these were all of my questions regarding Middle-earth Shadow of mordor lore, thanks for answering them :)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 20 2015, 2:00pm
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Now, with any luck, you might get a response or two from somebody who has actually played the game! 
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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