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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 19 2015, 10:07am
Post #1 of 6
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**Fellowship of the Ring Discussion - Council of Elrond - Thread 5 of 4(!) Bon Voyage as imminently The Ring Goes South: a summing up of kinds...
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Discussion of the next chapter will be getting under-way imminently, so please do go and support that discussion as well as you have supported this one!
To recap, I divided this discussion into 4 threads, all of which were graced with great responses:
1) Thread 1 of 4: “There is much to hear and decide” The start of the chapter. http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848058#848058
2) Thread 2 of 4: “Who are you and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?” Aragorn and Boromir.
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848520#848520
3) Thread 3 of 4: “I still want to know a good deal, especially about Gandalf.” Gandalf’s tale http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849273#849273
4) Thread 4 of 4: What shall we do with the Ring? ** http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849472#849472
Old discussions are not closed, so it is till possible to add to these threads if anyone wants to. But this does seem like the point at which to say “thank you”! I’ve greatly enjoyed the discussions and the chance to look at this complex and subtle chapter in more detail with you all.
Just like the delegates of the Council, I’ve come away with some changed views, having had some “eye-openers” as Bilbo is shortly to put them (I’ve never been able to read that phrase in quite the same way since the time I was working in medical publishing and learned that an “eye-opener” is also the term for a stiff drink some alcoholics crave on waking up, but there you go...).
I thought I would round up some points of interest. The list is bound to be personal, and limited to what I noted of the exchanges - so forgive me if I miss your favourite “eye-opener” and put matters right by posting it in reply! I’ve linked to some posts as references below. Again, I’ll apologise in advance: there’s a good chance that I pick out only one of the posts making that point, or one that makes a point stimulated by an earlier post. Or that in some way I ought to spread the citations out more fairly. My apologies if I miss something good - and please do not think your post went unappreciated, if you don’t see it cited here!
So - a biased and partial selection of discussion highlights. Sounds great; I should be in Marketing...  Here goes:
The cunning use of this meeting by Tolkien
Some thoughts that the chapter appears to be an exposition (“infodump” even) managed under the guise of a meeting to confirm (a) What the Ring is and (b) what to do with it. But what appears to be a authentically somewhat chaotic meeting to address those issues is cleverly used by Tolkien to introduce a lot of other material (I’ve already posted on this, here http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849475#849475 )
I also liked the idea raised by CuriousG http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849387#849387 and by Darkstone http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849418#849418 that some repetition (and now expansion) of what we heard back in the parlor of Bag End is both useful and effective.
A lot is achieved in a chapter that appears to be all talk and no action.
Dissatisfied dwarves
We discussed the “whisperings in secret” that Gloin reports before an ill-fated expedition sets off for Moria. Darkstone pointed out that Dain has already on record as saying that retaking Moria would be hopeless (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848733#848733)
We wondered whether Dwarves are inveterate whispers and plotters, or whether someone (“Wormbeard”?) was fomenting discontent on behalf of Sauron (or some other hostile power, I suppose).
Hats off to Boromir!
Tolkien cleverly uses Boromir as a reader-surrogate: he can ask questions whose answers the readers need to know. Usually that role falls to the Hobbits, but they tend to be credulous and very trusting of elves and wizards, so a more worldly-wise figure is called for here, and Boromir does nicely. And more than this:
And more than this - he is a reader surrogate who is amply answered, or at least Frodo accepts the answers, which makes the reader do so, too. So once Boromir remains unconvinced he is earmarked as a malcontent - no reader who has been convinced wants to be made aware of the deficiency of the answers he was persuaded by. So not only is he a reader surrogate at first, but by this very facts Tolkien enlists the reader against sympathising with him later. Well done! Sador, http://]http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=849616#849616
I find myself rooting easily for Aragorn: “what! he’s the rightful king of someplace and will set out to save his kingdom and recover his throne?! Excellent!” and so Boromir’s caution about this strange Northern man is easy not to sympathise with (and this, I suspect, is exactly what Tolkien intends). Nonetheless, we tried in thsi discussion to see Boromir more from the point of view of his own goals. Looked at that way, it is entirely credible that Boromir is wary of an “elvish” candidate for the throne (e.g. Darkstone http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848770#848770 ) and that Boromir wants to reserve judgement until Aragorn has shown his credentials as a warrior and leader (e.g. Brethil http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848673#848673 and sador http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849643#849643 )
Moreover, what can come across in Boromir as egotistical can (perhaps “should”) be read as someone from a Norse-like or old-Germanic culture. Far from boasting by implication, he’s ensuring people can assess him, his lineage and his words correctly (e.g. Darksone http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848733#848733 ). Also, it's reasonable to infer he's eager these strangers do not make the mistake of thinking he came to Rivendell because he is a coward avoiding the battlefield (e.g. as raised by sador http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849611#849611 )
He’s also standing up for his nation, and reporting events from Gondor (and standing up for his allies, with his interpretation of things in Rohan).
Clearly, Boromir is handed not only the solution to his riddle but something of a surprise: he’s not only found the Sword-that-was-broken, but its current owner, who wants to come to Gondor and become king. Events may well be going well outside whatever mandate he agreed with Denethor, and so it is understandable if he is being cautious. Of course, we can’t know how much Boromir and Denethor really knew in advance, and whether there is an extent to which Boromir has hidden depths behind the no-nonsense warlord persona he projects. But in any case, I think he might well leave the meeting pleased with events (e.g. noWizardme http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848819#848819 )
”You have only one choice” - oh, really?
Tolkien obviously needs to meeting to come to the conclusion that the Ring must be disposed of in Mt Doom. It seems odd to me that he doesn’t have anyone voice an excellent argument (as offered by Otaku-sempai http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849478#849478 and by Bracegirdle http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849539#849539 ) that really the destruction of the Ring is the only way to stave off defeat, end of story. As I posted earlier (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849596#849596 ) I’m not sure why this argument is only used later in The Last Debate (any thoughts welcome...).
One of the alternative options for dealing with the Ring that the Council dismisses is to dispose of it into the deep sea. This is dismissed first on grounds of practicality. We discussed whether the options is really that impractical. Darkstone reminded us that Sauron has a large navy (the Umbar Corsairs) who might blockade the Havens and the coast (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849642#849642), but CuriousG wonders whether any of Sauron’s forces could realistically be mobilized in time and in sufficient strength to intercept a hard-riding party (say Gandalf, Glorfindel, other knights of similar prowess) taking Frodo with all dispatch to the coast and a handy ship. (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849774#849774). The discussion is speculative of course - for all we know, the west coast of Eriador is ALREADY being blockaded by Sauron as the council meets, and the Corsairs are pulled back to attack Minas Tirith later when Sauron gathers the Ring went South. But personally I continue to think that the arguments offered in this part of the meeting aren’t really compelling.
We generally agreed with Gandalf’s idea that disposing of the Ring into the sea would only postpone the problem; Sauron or something else would be bound to find it eventually (the idea also started a Thread-4 subthread of notable puns). It’s easy enough to think of many issues in real-life politics where policy amounts to deferring the problem until later: it would seem to be a common enough human temptation. Clearly, if Sauron is going to Whup everyone quickly with or without the Ring, there’s not much benefit in hiding the Ring anyway. But as far as I can see, this argument is not made in the chapter. Similarly, the characters might be thinking that the ability to resist Sauron is decreasing - it was more in the days of the Last Alliance than it is now, and may be less still in future as the elves depart. Perhaps this the last chance to deal with Sauron? But again that argument is not made explicitly.
I think though that postponement (by dumping the Ring in the sea) is not to be considered because Tolkien considers it morally wrong. An interesting theme coming up here is the idea (which also occurs elsewhere in the book) that one should do the right thing, regardless of the chances of success. Also that “The context of your choice affects many choices afterwards that you can't foresee.” (e.g. CuriousG http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849781#849781 and http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849783#849783 - this second reference is the one I’m quoting about context of choices )
Does Frodo only have one choice?
We came to a pretty unanimous conclusion that the inner struggle Frodo has is truly within himself - in the moment of decision, he’s not being knobbled by an outside power (see Meneldor http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849492#849492 and Darkstone http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849533#849533 and Bracegirdle http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849496#849496 )
He certainly is under a lot of silent peer-pressure, and Gandlaf and Elrond have presumably “prewired” this meeting to get to the point where Frodo volunteers ( Berthil http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848336#848336 ) but we think that Frodo’s moment of decision is truly his, weird though his experience of it is. CuriousG In fact, far from being “knobbled”, he may be being divinely “de-knobbled” (if that is a thing?): http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849627#849627 , and be sure to read Darkstone’s reply).
So, I think that is probably it from me, thank you once again all who contributed by posting (and of course by reading & lurking).
Please do support future discussions, including by posting!
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 19 2015, 10:15am)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 20 2015, 11:36am
Post #2 of 6
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Of "eye-openers" and drunken councils
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The fact that everyone at the council was inebriated would explain how it ended with such a silly plan. One can imagine Elrond with a lampshade on his head saying, "Yeah, let's give the Ring to a hobbit. He can destroy it for us."
Gandalf, mumbling from beneath a coffee table, "Better than the Eagle plan."
Boromir and Aragorn, in a contest of tequila shots, say, "Is anyone here too much of a wimp to go along?" Exchange glares, pump testosterone, swear a blood oath.
Yup, all makes sense now.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 20 2015, 1:55pm
Post #3 of 6
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:) That's an interesting theory!
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Never trust an elf (to mix your drinks).
Galadriel's revenge...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 20 2015, 9:03pm
Post #4 of 6
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Thanks for doing this summary and for the EXPERT unraveling of so many threads in this chapter, Wiz. There's always something new to discover in this part of the book. It's a shame that people can get lost in it when it's so idea-rich.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 20 2015, 10:11pm
Post #5 of 6
(1224 views)
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The fact that everyone at the council was inebriated would explain how it ended with such a silly plan. One can imagine Elrond with a lampshade on his head saying, "Yeah, let's give the Ring to a hobbit. He can destroy it for us."
Gandalf, mumbling from beneath a coffee table, "Better than the Eagle plan."
Boromir and Aragorn, in a contest of tequila shots, say, "Is anyone here too much of a wimp to go along?" Exchange glares, pump testosterone, swear a blood oath.
Yup, all makes sense now.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 27 2015, 1:12am
Post #6 of 6
(1153 views)
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Thanks for hosting the Council, Furincurunir!
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We generally agreed with Gandalf’s idea that disposing of the Ring into the sea would only postpone the problem; Sauron or something else would be bound to find it eventually (the idea also started a Thread-4 subthread of notable puns). It’s easy enough to think of many issues in real-life politics where policy amounts to deferring the problem until later: it would seem to be a common enough human temptation. Clearly, if Sauron is going to Whup everyone quickly with or without the Ring, there’s not much benefit in hiding the Ring anyway. But as far as I can see, this argument is not made in the chapter. Similarly, the characters might be thinking that the ability to resist Sauron is decreasing - it was more in the days of the Last Alliance than it is now, and may be less still in future as the elves depart. Perhaps this the last chance to deal with Sauron? But again that argument is not made explicitly.
I think though that postponement (by dumping the Ring in the sea) is not to be considered because Tolkien considers it morally wrong. An interesting theme coming up here is the idea (which also occurs elsewhere in the book) that one should do the right thing, regardless of the chances of success.
I like this bit of summary. Moving forward with no guarantee of success, and perhaps no 'hope'. Which since Aragorn is the equivalent of 'hope' to me, always seems to have a double, deeper meaning. Seems almost like the estel/amdir question, of hope that is innate in the goodness of Eru in everything versus a good that comes from without and is 'hoped' for.
Great discussion. 
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