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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 17 2015, 4:48pm
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Legolas' mother
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Okay, after viewing BOT5A for the 5th time in theaters, not to mention losing count of how many times at home, I finally decided that whatever my complaints about the movie (e.g.: too much Alfrid & not enough Fili) it was still a very good movie. My complaints fade with time and each additional viewing, the stuff that is good to amazing more than makes up for the quibbles. One of those quibbles being too much time with the Elves, and I've noticed that several people have complained about Legolas' backstory regarding his mother. Well, I've decided this brief mention of his mother's death to Tauriel actually does add to the story, and even explains Thranduil's violent reaction towards Tauriel. Yes, I'm talking about that scene where she draws an arrow on him and he cuts her bow in half. Her words are, "There is no love in you." A pained expression crosses Thranduil's face before he lashes out at her, and then he accuses her, "What do you know of love? Nothing!" I think this all goes back to Leggy's mother, when he said his father never speaks of her. It's not because he doesn't care or have any love, but because it's so painful. And Tauriel really pushed a button when she said that - can't believe it took me this long to figure that out. Also, Thranduil wants the diamonds, and the necklace, which I believe was made for his dead wife. Yeah, he's pretty cold and doesn't care about the Dwarves, but that necklace represents his wife and that's why he's willing to go to war to get it back.
So I think the little bit of backstory Legolas shares with Tauriel (and it's what, 2 or 3 lines?) helps explain all of this. And kudos to Lee Pace for some great acting! Of course people who've read the books already know all this, but those of us who haven't read them all (or not in a long time, anyway) could use the backstory. However, if you're really well-versed in the books, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Holly Hobbit
Bree
Apr 17 2015, 5:24pm
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You're right - Thranduil's problem isn't that he loves too little, but that he has loved too much. Gives so much more depth to Thranduil and Legolas to include her backstory, in my opinion. And Lee's acting in that scene is so brilliant. Feel really bad for Thranduil, though... His facial expression after Legolas says "if you kill her, you'll have to kill me" is just heartbreaking. Because after his wife died saving Legolas, Thranduil has, of course, wanted to keep his only child safe. So the fact his son is challenging him to kill him had to have just been heartbreaking to hear, after the sacrifice his wife made for Legolas.
I'm not super well-versed in the books either (need to read the Silmarillion) but from what I know the backstory on Thranduil's wife doesn't actually defy canon. Actually, an Elvenqueen is never mentioned. So Thranduil could have had a wife at the time of the Hobbit but Tolkien never mentioned her. I think for a long time it's been accepted that the Queen had died. Peter Jackson just made it a bit more clear how in the movie-verse, at least. Before I'd always assumed she'd died in childbirth or maybe in an Orc raid in Mirkwood (not so far from the movie, except it sounds like she died at Angmar). It explains why Thranduil doesn't want much to do with the world beyond the forest.
I must confess that one of my quibbles with BOTFA was the fact that Beorn did not kill Bolg (as per the book), but that the task was given to Legolas. However, I had a thought the other week that made me accept Legolas's role in bringing down the Gundabad Orc. At that scene in Gundabad Legolas explained that the Orcs there killed his mother - that would have been Azog and Bolg's people. So when Legolas killed Bolg, he was in a way avenging the Elvenqueen's death, which I think is pretty awesome. I'm much more okay with Legolas killing Bolg now. (Still would have been nice to see Beorn, though.)
Overall, I think the Elvenqueen's backstory added something good to a movie where I did find a lot of things wrong on my first viewing. (Not watching again until the EE because I want to see the Durins be buried and for Thranduil to receive his gems, and the fact that half of the book ending was omitted to make time for Alfrid just frustrated me in the TE.) I heard that PJ thought about shooting a backstory scene of Thranduil with the Elvenqueen, and I so wish he had... I would have loved to see an "Evenstar" type flashback scene where he gives his wife the necklace, as it would have eliminated all doubt about it's significance. And the necklace is very beautiful! Have you noticed that it's heart-shaped but the center "heart" contains something that looks very similar to the Evenstar? 
If they ever decide to make more Middle-earth movies, I wish they would do three movies based around the Mirkwood Elves, as I think this would be the best bet for a successful spinoff trilogy without violating copyright: one showing Legolas's adventures with Aragorn during the Hunt for Gollum, a War in the North movie with Thranduil, and a War of the Last Alliance movie with Thranduil where he becomes king and meets his wife (and then later we could see baby Legolas).  The Elvenqueen had deep love for Thranduil and Legolas, and she was willing to die for it. She's a heroine, and IMO her relationship with Thranduil is much more fascinating than the forced Kili/Tauriel romance even though we never meet her onscreen. (Guess whom I ship in the Hobbit trilogy - it's not a Dwarf and an Elf!) ;) I would love to meet this remarkable Middle-earth Queen onscreen!
(This post was edited by Holly Hobbit on Apr 17 2015, 5:37pm)
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Lorien
Apr 17 2015, 5:46pm
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Whether you liked his what-is-love-baby-don't-hurt-me subplot with Tauriel, Lee Pace was truly magnificent to watch as the Elven King.
This is a backstory that grew on me. It felt shoehorned at first, but I thought it was a brilliant way to flesh out the character, and Lee Pace and Evangeline Lilly acted the heck out of that scene.
Very little is said about Legolas's mother, but if you put the pieces together, you can infer something pretty interesting. Let's lay it all out, shall we?
Legolas tells Tauriel that his mother died at Gundabad and that there was no grave. His father never speaks of her.
Thranduil tells Tauriel: "What you feel for that dwarf is not real. You think it is love? Are you prepared to die for it?"
And some Tolkien trivia: Elves really don't want to die-- it's so against their immortal nature. Death in some ways is worse for elves than for other races. But they will choose death for the sake of love. (Arwen chooses mortality for Aragorn, etc.)
And lastly, Thranduil tells Legolas: "Your mother loved you. More than anyone. More than life."
This last quote is key. Legolas's mother loved him more than life. She chose Legolas over life.
Did Legolas's mother die to protect him? I think it's a totally fair assumption.
----
And a little sidenote. Tauriel challenges Thranduil with "You will not turn away. Not this time." She speaks a bit like she was there, doesn't she? Tauriel is at least 600 years old. Is it possible that she was among the Thranduil's army when Smaug attacked Dale/Erebor?
This does a bit to deepen Tauriel's exasperation with Thranduil. She was there when Erebor, Dale and Esgaroth were all thriving and watched her king let it all fall to ruin (and things grow increasingly worse in Mirkwood after that). I actually really enjoyed Thranduil and Tauriel butting heads politically, and I thought Tauriel's "tipping point" of going to run down the orcs by herself felt pretty reasonable. They were rather good foils for one another, weren't they?
(Guess whom I ship in the Hobbit trilogy - it's not a Dwarf and an Elf!)
What do you mean you don't ship Legolas/Gimli??? 
(This post was edited by marary on Apr 17 2015, 5:59pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 17 2015, 7:06pm
Post #4 of 12
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There is Another Angle to the Line...
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"I've come to claim something of mine.."
when he is talking to Bard...early.. in Dale.
Bomby believes Thrandy feels ...
HE has also Lost his Son
to the Dwarves cause.
As this line is delivered while Leggy & T-Girl are
Absent up near Gundabad.
People seem to assume he is referring the Necklace,
but he maybe also, be referring to his Lost son.
One thing bom loves about PJFW&PB's writing is it often
is open to interpretation?...
The following is one of Bomby's favorite quotes
in Language.
"Great people talk about Ideas,
Average people talk about events..
Small people talk about?... other people."
~ Eleanor Roosevelt ~
It's a motto for me.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 17 2015, 11:20pm
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is also borrowed from a canon backstory. In the books, it belongs to Elrond's wife, Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. On a trip from Rivendell to Lorien, she was waylaid by orcs, captured and tortured. She was rescued by her sons, Elrohir and Elladan (Arwen's brothers) and physically healed by Elrond, but she was so broken in spirit that she chose to sail west and leave Middle-earth. In LOTR (the book), it is said that Elladan and Elrohir took to riding with the Rangers and warring against the orcs because they could not forget their mothers' torment.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Elladan and Elrohir didn't make it into the LOTR movies, so it looks like their mother's backstory and their friendship with the Rangers and vendetta against the orcs has been given to MovieLegolas instead. It adds an extra bit of interest to the idea of him being sent off to find Aragorn here, and later his choice to join the Fellowship.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Lorien
Apr 18 2015, 8:29am
Post #6 of 12
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I had not made that connection!
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Thanks for pointing it out. A lot of the "non-canonical" things in these films were very inspired by things that were canon! I love it.
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Adrianna
Lorien
Apr 18 2015, 8:30pm
Post #7 of 12
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I haven't read the books yet. But I got the same feel. Some thinks that Thranduil is cold, heartless and doesn't care. And that's not true. Life itself can threw you a curveball and sometimes when you don't have anybody to lean on to help you through the terrible times you regress instead. And that's what happen to Thranduil. I mean he lost his father, half the elven army, became king, lost a wife and had a son to raise along with ruling a kingdom. I am sure it was not easy. Especially since they love on a deeper level. It had to be painful for him to lose Legolas at the end. The look on his face after Legolas tells him that he can not go back to the kingdom just explains to me he knew he should have never been so hard but he was doing the best he could as any parent could in that circumstance. He had a lot of pinned up aggression and pain. When Tauriel lashed out at him the way she did that was a hot button for him.
Maray: You made a good point about Tauriel could have been there when he turned his back on the Dale/Erebor when Smaug attacked. That does seem to explain her telling Thranduil he will not turn away this time.
There was a lot I was trying to connect also between some of the scenes. Yes, we hope that the EE would clear a lot up. We'll just have to wait and see.
"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
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Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 7:00am
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I read some criticism that Thranduil was adapted poorly to the screen and too much of a jerk (nevermind that he's sort of a jerk in the book as well!). I actually thought his character was far more sympathetic in the movie.
True, the racist-against-Silvan things was a bit... odd?
A few points. The motivations of the three races/leaders in the book are:
1) Thorin - Basically just wants his gold back!
2) Bard - doesn't have much of a personality, basically comes out of the blue and demands part of the treasure. His claim is actually a bit more dubious in the book than in the movie (read it again if you disagree).
3) Thranduil/Elvenking - Is a hindrance, and a jerk. Wages war on the dwarves seemingly out of greed.
All three characters get much more sympathetic motivations in the movie.
1) Thorin - A lot of his motivation and personal history was lifted from the Appendices, rather than the Hobbit book. The Appendices tell a much deeper and more tragic story of Durin's folk and the quest for Erebor. It really was about reclaiming a lost homeland, not just about the treasure. I also thought Thorin's character and motivation was softened quite a bit by developing the relationships in the company. He comes off as way more of a martyr-leader in the film.
2) Bard - He has three adorable kids. His motivations seem to be almost entirely about them. This is a lot more sympathetic and admirable than some guy who comes out of the blue to kill a dragon then demands gold.
3) Thranduil - In the film, he has this tragic backstory. He goes to war not just out of greed, but for the last remaining connection to the love of his life. Wow. And he retreats from the battle to avoid more death. On one hand, I admire Tauriel for standing by her convictions. On the other hand, she's a bit of an upstart and really lacks some understanding of Thranduil's duty as a leader not to get more of his people killed than necessary. Thranduil has a different relationship to death and grief at that point. Tauriel doesn't quite understand this until the end, I think.
Wow, I never realized how cool the Tauriel/Thranduil relationship was, but it's rather complex, isn't it?
(This post was edited by marary on Apr 19 2015, 7:03am)
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Adrianna
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 10:00am
Post #9 of 12
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I think Tauriel was used to flesh out Thranduil's backstory. I mean you can tell at the beginning of BOFA that Thranduil attitude is somewhat confident and cocky but by the end of the movie he's become more humble and vulnerable.
"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
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Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 10:14am
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I wonder if they were drawing an intentional parallel in how they named Tauriel. A three syllable elvish name that starts with "T" and ends with "L". Hm.
Both start out as incredibly callous and misunderstanding of the other's actions (or inactions). When Tauriel challenges Thranduil in Dale, I think in a way they were both right. They were just coming at the situation from completely different angles, and I can completely sympathize with both of them. Tauriel's concern for the other races in the land is well-established and admirable, but we also just watched a really sad scene of Thranduil looking at the faces of dead elves. His retreat was also completely understandable and sympathetic.
Who would you side with in that situation?
I agree that Thranduil wouldn't be nearly as well fleshed-out were it not for Tauriel.
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Adrianna
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 11:03am
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Well, they both deserve it. It would be hard to chose.
I mean Tauriel is young and wanted nothing more but to help other lands. She's caring and warm.
Thranduil has been through the ringer. And alot of his actions and attitudes are driven through that which has a direct effect on Tauriel and Legolas.
We know they are both wrong in a way but I guess someone needed to take a stand against Thranduil. It was time. I can only imagine how his people felt scared to say anything to him. I don't think he was tirade leader just very strict and stern.
"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 21 2015, 3:01pm
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I don't know if this was ever addressed in the tabletop LotR RPG from Decipher, but supplements for Iron Crown's Middle-earth Role Playing game (MERP) posited that Legolas' mother was still alive at least up to the year 2945 (Third Age) and even ascribed a name to her (Lady Arhendhiril).
"The Queen's beauty dazzled me; her hair cascaded about her like a river of silver in torrent. The lady's welcome carried like chimes or silver bells stirred by the wind. She stood tall as Thranduil who was taller than all others present. For Lady Arhendhiril was Sindarin, kin to the House of Thingol through the family of Elmo, his brother in Beleriand. The purity of the Sindarin strain in the Queen was reflected in her silver hair." - Halls of the Elven-king in the Fortresses of Middle-earth series of suppliments
By contrast, The Heart of the Wild for The One Ring Roleplaying Game from Cubicle 7 makes no mention of Thranduil's Queen, but does imply that Legolas is not his only son.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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