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boldog
Rohan
Apr 15 2015, 8:39am
Post #1 of 19
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How loyal are the orcs to Azog?
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We see in the books and films that they tend to loathe their masters.
The witch king, Saruman, Sauron, and Morgoth. Who merely use them for the benefit of their own desires, not for the orcs desires.
But how would they feel following a powerful Orc like Azog? None would really dare to challenge him, as they usually do to eachother, for he will just do a yazneg to them  .
Perhaps they see a fellow Orc fighting more for their causes rather than a selfish desire of dominion. Kind of like Azog is the Aragorn of the Orcs!
I wish we got a scene of the Orcs talking about Azogs leadership. Then we would see what think.
Do you reckon the Orcs would Loathe Azog or follow him willingly.
Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............
(This post was edited by boldog on Apr 15 2015, 8:40am)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Apr 15 2015, 9:01am
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After witnessing what Azog did to Yazneg, I bet Fimbul followed Azog out of fear and maybe he loathed him. But maybe that was already the case even before Yazneg's death. Narzug on the other hand seemed more genuinely loyal to Azog.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 15 2015, 9:49am
Post #3 of 19
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Tolkien's orcs don't do loyalty. They do fear and self interest.
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Seaber
Rivendell
Apr 15 2015, 10:16am
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Think Shagrat and Gorbag talking after they capture Frodo, they plan on leaving Sauron's services and start out on their own. Then promptly start on each other.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 15 2015, 12:11pm
Post #5 of 19
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For Tolkien, Bolg avenging Azog's death and the orcs avenging the Great Goblin, I think is done out of respect more than fear.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 15 2015, 12:27pm
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I would see that more as a tribal thing, and a hatred of those outside the tribe - you killed our leader, we kill you. I've never had the impression that Tolkien's orcs were anything other than a ruined and debased life-form. Respect, loyalty, selflessness - love, even - all the positive motivations seem to be the very antithesis of orcs - part of what they were, or might have been. Gandalf says at one point that he pities the enemy's servants, doesn't he? But pities them only - he doesn't try to reform them, or look for good in them, or give them a chance, presumably because he knows it's too late for that.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 15 2015, 12:40pm
Post #7 of 19
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Orcs respect strength and survival skills.
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Azog is powerful and he is able to stay on top even after being maimed and taking a devastating loss (perhaps closer to a draw, as the Dwarves don't retake Moria after the Battle of Azanulbizar either). He does become subservient to Sauron, but the Orcs should probably expect that as a matter of course.
Azog's son Bolg comes across as more of a thug; however, he might have been portrayed as a better leader if he had been given a more prominent role.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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BalrogTrainer
Rivendell
Apr 15 2015, 1:20pm
Post #8 of 19
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...Azog is practically a prototype for the Uruk-hai due to his size (ditto Bolg), I think he commanded a fair amount of respect from the other Orcs.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 15 2015, 3:10pm
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I tend to think of prison and gang cultures when I think of the orcs...even pirates.
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They are prisoners/slaves to a large extent and if left to their own devices, are opportunistic and ruthless against their bretheren as they seem driven by base needs...food and blood lust. When a commander of sorts is present, they follow orders out of fear - either natural or instilled (Sauron, Saurman, Nazgul etc). Azog and Bolg are able to command based on both personal fear, personality (a more rare attribute of orcs) and knowledge that The Master is behind them. Do or die is the only option.
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smtfhw
Lorien
Apr 16 2015, 9:48am
Post #10 of 19
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That about sums it up very neatly. They're not about to take on something bigger and nastier than themselves.
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squiggle
Rivendell
Apr 18 2015, 5:38am
Post #11 of 19
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Very Loyal to Azog, he is legendary Chieftan & defacto Orc Emperor of sorts
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That's why Azog resolved to wipe out the line of Durin, simply because they crossed his path and resisted his aims; so Azog being Azog he resolves to completely wipe out their line, there shall be no pretenders to the rule of Azog's dominion 
Azog's distinction is related to that he is not as closely connected to the line of Orc at that time in MiddleEarth, very much a late bloomer.
Within his immediate rule i think Azog could command legions of Orcs directly against Sauron such is his Orc lordship, but in general, Sauron would hold command over Orcs on mass.
I don't think it could of ever come to this, because Orcs in general are only very limited in the 'here and now' & even for Azog, this over-rides, although at times very grudingly, their own aims to greater base instinctual loyalties in ideological service to Sauron.
Azog the Defilier has doomed tragedy about him in this way more than the norm for an Orc .
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 18 2015, 4:13pm
Post #12 of 19
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I cannot see Azog taking any independent action against Sauron and
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cannot fathom a rebellion. Their will is entirely bent to his means. Any flash of independence is illusory - such as the Great Goblin being left to his own devices - however, if Sauron calls he comes running.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Apr 18 2015, 11:15pm
Post #13 of 19
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...because in the movie, Azog clearly states to Sauron that he is not happy with the Dark Lord's decisions; ''you promised me his head''.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 19 2015, 3:20am
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That is the movie, a PJ/Boyens invention.
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But even in the movie, Azog obeys.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 19 2015, 3:20am)
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Apr 19 2015, 8:25am
Post #15 of 19
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...Movie Discussion: The Hobbit.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 19 2015, 2:03pm
Post #16 of 19
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Read the initial post....books and movies.
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"How loyal are the orcs to Azog?
Quote | Reply To This Post
We see in the books and films that they tend to loathe their masters. "
The post is not focused on the movies, even if in the movie section.
It is important to make the distinction between Tolkien's creation and Peter Jackson's interpretation, additions and changes.
Any "what ifs" draw on what is known from Tolkien's works.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 19 2015, 2:05pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 19 2015, 3:07pm
Post #17 of 19
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If we are talking books, then Tolkien suggests the original statement is correct.
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And that, provided their master's* will was not directly focused upon them, the orcs felt hatred towards him and that they were under his tyranny.
* Specifically Morgoth, but we can't imagine that Sauron was more capable.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 19 2015, 3:23pm
Post #18 of 19
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That does not mean they could revolt. One can hate the master but not be able
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to act on it. As indicated, they were ruled by fear...which would lead to hate....but they know they cannot rebel.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 19 2015, 3:29pm
Post #19 of 19
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There isn't anything inherently preventing that, it is just difficult to imagine a practical situation where Morgoth or Sauron would have been sufficiently distracted as to allow that situation to occur.
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