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**Fellowship of the Ring Discussion - Council of Elrond - Thread 4 of 4: What shall we do with the Ring? **
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2015, 12:21pm

Post #26 of 38 (2394 views)
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:) instead of a Dark Lord, you would have a BREAM! [In reply to] Can't Post

Some evil fish would be bound to get the Ring eventually, if they dumped it in the sea!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 18 2015, 12:55pm

Post #27 of 38 (2393 views)
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Some creatures are just, plain shellfish! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 18 2015, 12:57pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 18 2015, 5:09pm

Post #28 of 38 (2382 views)
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Yes, like the Hollin Gate Watcher in the Water--on steroids with the Ring. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19 2015, 12:25am

Post #29 of 38 (2374 views)
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"I will take the Ring to Valinor, though I do not know the quay." / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 21 2015, 1:12am

Post #30 of 38 (2348 views)
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"at the bidding of Mithrandir" [In reply to] Can't Post

"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" is quite explicit on this point, as I commented in a thread below while discussing Gandalf's "people skills": For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took on himself the burden, ...

Of course, Gandalf didn't have a lot of options. He could have let Bilbo keep it and take it to Rivendell, I suppose. At that time, he didn't know it was The One, although he suspected. Maybe it was at that point he elected to use Frodo, as a younger and presumably stronger Bearer.








squire
Half-elven


Apr 21 2015, 2:14am

Post #31 of 38 (2341 views)
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I don't think Gandalf 'elected' to use Frodo. [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo is, we are told, the best hobbit in the Shire. What are the odds the One Ring would come, not only to the race in Middle-earth that is least likely to succumb to the Ring's power-imperative, but to the individual of that race who is most able to survive the ordeal involved in destroying it? Gandalf must have seen - in fact, comments on it at one point - that he really had little to say about this matter.

The final destruction of the Ring was not really Gandalf's doing, as much as he helped in facilitating it. Implicitly, Tolkien assigns the credit to Eru, the One, without discounting the agency of those who actually performed or assisted in performing the deed.



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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 21 2015, 4:02am

Post #32 of 38 (2340 views)
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What do you think Tolkien intended... [In reply to] Can't Post

...by that statement I quoted? It has always fascinated me. Is intended as a facile oversimplification by some latter-day historian or scribe, or is it intended to tell us something about Gandalf?

In fact, Gandalf did make a deliberate decision in pressuring Bilbo to give up the Ring.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Apr 21 2015, 4:04am)


sador
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 8:40am

Post #33 of 38 (2324 views)
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Decidedly late. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf (and Tolkien!) of course has Mt Doom in mind, and may be eager to dismiss all other options. But do these objections make sense: is the deep-sea disposal option properly considered?
Well, the dismissal of Bombadil definitely isn't.
It could be that Gandalf knows something he does not want to disclose; but based on what we know, I don't find his objections convincing.

Could Sauron realistically march up the coast quickly enough to stop the dumping of the Ring, or to learn much of its disposal site?
Well, to learn much he only needs several spies. And he does spy on the Fellowship from early on (or Saruman does, which is quite as bad).

Do we hear anything suggesting that Sauron actually tries this strategy? Remember that it is not clear - to me at least - how long it takes Sauron to realise in the coming chapters that the Ring has gone east not west. There might be time for him to believe it has gone to the coast and initiate his plans accordingly. Or if he has forces to spare, why not march up the coast anyway, outflanking his enemies?

Well, perhaps the red eye that Frodo sees in the next chapter.

Is the concern about the Havens a bit “elf-centred”? That is, if trapped in Middle-earth until death by the capture of their Havens, aren’t the elves in the same boat as every other race, though with more confidence about their fate after a death in battle?

For sure. Galdor does spill the beans, and discloses the high-elves secret agenda: Screen the Havens!

Actually, would Sauron desperately want to avoid cutting of the Havens and making death the only remaining ship home for the elves? That is, would the resulting suicide squads of elven warriors be something of a problem for him?
No. He knows their measure.

And the strategy had worked well enough for Morgoth in the First Age, didn't it?

Wouldn’t that be a stronger argument for not dumping the Ring? Is it odd that nobody uses this argument?

Yes, and it is raised against Bombadil.
I guess that there are enough flaws in Glorfindel's suggestion, that nobody bothers to remind him that it doesn't even offer a solution to the problem.

Is all of this to miss the point that LOTR is a story about having the courage to “make a final end to this menace”, and that thinking of it in terms of wargames and strategies is moot?

Possibly, but still fun.
And before summoning courage, one needs to assess the options. This isn't a God-sent solution to the problem: this is a strategy of folly.

If so, how do you think Tolkien does with his attempt to persuade us that taking the Ring to Mount doom is the only reasonable option, as well as the one that his story requires?
Pretty good.

The best part of it is having a fourty-pages deliberation before it, without even giving them a break for refreshments.
Nothing does as well for railroading commitees - or convincing readers - as holding them in suspense for long, and when the time comes to actually decide something, dangle the end of the meeting as a bait.
You will notice, of course, that Bilbo never even grasps the intricacies of the possible solutions - as far as he's concerned, once Gandalf and Elrond think a course is advisable, the only thing left to do is to pick up volunteers.

Any thoughts on Boromir’s suggestion and its handling (handling by the other characters at the Council, OR handling by Tolkien as writer)?
Very deft of Tolkien; especially once everyone else thinks of this option once out of the Council.
And of course, that is a part of the engineering of the Council, saving the news about Saruman for last. That's the way to create the appropriate impression!

The other Rings can’t be used as weapons either: Sauron has regained the 7 and the 9: the 3 were never weapons.
Isn't kindling hopes a sort of weapons? How far is it from driving into madness, as the Witch-king does? Is there any real difference, or is it just a question of propaganda - depending on which side you are?

Gandalf counters that it is not despair (admittedly on rather technical grounds of definition) and nor is it folly (on the grounds that he claims it is the only option left).
Should have been a lawyer. That's someone who has missed his true vocation in life.

Sophistry? Do these arguments make sense, or are we and the meeting being railroaded towards the conclusion Gandalf (and Tolkien) want?
Well, this kind of thinking outside the box seems to be the one great advantage the good guys have over the bad guys (as I think Auden first said).
But arguably, if Sauron is the great tempter, he should be good at putting himself in his adveraries' place in order to find their weak spots?

What on (Middle-)earth would Gandalf and Elrond have done if Frodo had NOT volunteered? Do you imagine they had a “Plan B”?
Well, Frodo held out pretty well, until Bilbo forced his hand.
The advantages of witholding lunch from an old hobbit...

Does Sam volunteer, or is he volunteered (that is, someone makes the choice for him)?

Well, he doesn't have time to consider that; Elrond decides for him.

What is your feeling about how Sam is treated?
He's probably used to it. Note that both Frodo and Bilbo take him for granted in the next chapter.

How do you suppose Sam feels about it?
He's probably used to it.


And of course - do you have Any Other Business?

I'm waiting for lunch, too. But there is some time yet.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 11:06am

Post #34 of 38 (2315 views)
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You are convinced about the Bombadil option? [In reply to] Can't Post

At least if I read your reply correctly, you think it seems viable to send the Ring to him? To me, the fact that Sauron would sooner or later encircle Bombadil and overwhelm him seems the strongest reason not to give it to him. And it's rather terrifying to think that he might just throw it away out of forgetfulness.


sador
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 11:48am

Post #35 of 38 (2305 views)
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What if? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you see this other voice as a literal thing, suggesting that another will (or more than one) is literally imposing itself on Frodo’s?
I tend to read it as if it is Frodo himself. But this is another case of "fantastic hesitation" or "psychological detachment" - often people act in ways they cannot believe themselves.
But in LotR there are quite a few cases in which the supernatural seems to take over, so it is up in the air.

Or is this an internal psychological struggle purely within Frodo himself? If there is an outside influence who or what is it, and why does it intervene?
I wouldn't put it to Gandalf - it is more likely to be Varda (which Gildor 'appointed' as Frodo's guardian), or Eru Himself.
There is also the possibility that the Ring itself preferred to be carried by Frodo, as a weaker person who could be manipulatied, and become the center of plotting and differences between allies; but in that case it really managed to fool Elrond.

Is you reading that, in the end, Frodo has chosen of his free will - or has he been coerced?

His free will - as far as anybody is free.

Are you sure determinism is wrong? Or, conversely, that God does not control our will and decisions - occasionally, or always? I think it is just that in the RL, we have the same doubts about ourselves, but repress them because insisting on our personal freedom is so important.

Do you see similarities? Differences? Ways in which these two scenes are related?
Gandalf did not try to coerce him to use his free will, but to take of the Ring. Frodo chose, of his own free will to listen to Gandalf's voice. (and it appears that the opposing force was not Sauron, whatever Gandalf may say in The White Rider, but the Ring: "Verily I come, I come to you")
But was it really his choice, or did Eru decide? In The Breaking of the Fellowship Frodo appears to act freely - as we appear to.


So what does this mean, that this task is “appointed” to Frodo (re-inforcing Gandalf’s earlier comments that Frodo is “meant to have the ring”. Are we to read “appointed”, “meant” as a plan or intention formed by somebody, but not one that is bound to come about?

Are we to read “appointed”, “meant” as a plan or intention formed by somebody, but not one that is bound to come about?
That seems a very probable reading.

Such devices of fate occur elsewhere in Tolkien’s stories... It’s also true though that readers are never forced to believe that these devices truly drive the action - it’s never explicit that the characters truly have lost the ability to choose: perhaps they merely think they are bound by these fates.

This dichotomy, or indeterminism, is a part of what makes them so successful.
They are very similar to the real world.

Is the idea that a person in Middle-earth should try to work out what their fate - or the divine plan as it concerns them - is, and then act accordingly (a correct choice being “good” or “right”)?

Yes, I think this is implied - and is specifically stated in the Ainulindale. Elrond would definitely see it so.
But the reader is free to interpret the facts otherwise.





sador
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 11:59am

Post #36 of 38 (2306 views)
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No, I'm not. [In reply to] Can't Post

But Gandalf's words seem unconvincing, especially once after that Glorfindel suggests throwing it into the Sea.
And the possibility that he would just forget it - does that seem consistent with the Bombadil we know? We have only Gandalf's word for it, and while he may be right - he may be wrong, too.
At the end of the day, the negligence so far was on Gandalf's side.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 22 2015, 11:33pm

Post #37 of 38 (2288 views)
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Thoughts on despair [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


In Reply To
We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one seems an interesting statement.

Seeking without hope--isn't that what Frodo's mission becomes? Sam will continuously buttress Frodo's spirits in Mordor, but Frodo will just soldier on without hoping to survive, and not even hoping 100% that his mission will succeed, he just tries, tries, tries. I think that's a philosophical brick in the foundation of the whole story, that you seek for victory without hoping, which doesn't mean you despair, but it means you don't count on success as fore-ordained. Which I suppose balances the whole "thou art the Chosen One according to Prophecy" which makes things too easy. If you think of how Theoden talks before Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields, he goes to war, hoping to win, of course, because he's not just showing up and not surrendering, but he's not convinced they'll win or that they'll survive. I think this demonstrates the courage of the characters who are willing to pursue actions without certainty of success. They have more courage than hope, let's say. But they're not without hope, just not 100% hopeful and confident. (And if they were, they'd seem cocky.)

Love all of this, CG: that victory without assurance is different than despair. A detail that Denethor misunderstood, in his rather self-imposed misery.

And I agree on Théoden: that wonderful line to Merry, where to Merry's cry that he shall be as a father to him, Théoden says (with such elegant, understated courage) "for a little while". Théoden knows that even a victory will likely be his end: but this does not make him despair either; not after the stain of Saruman and Wormtongue is lifted from him. It is the higher victory that matters to the reborn Théoden, healed by Gandalf.










Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


May 4 2015, 3:35pm

Post #38 of 38 (2233 views)
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The theme of continuing on without hope [In reply to] Can't Post

is pervasive in LOTR! (Yes, I know I'm very late on this, but it took me awhile to gather all these ideas in my brain. And keep them there. Laugh)


We've already touched on many instances of carrying on with the right thing to do despite any real hope--the main one being the entire quest itself: "there lies our hope, if hope it be...we must send the Ring to the fire" (Elrond, FOTR). And of course, Frodo eventually loses any hope that he will succeed at all, though he continues on. Even Sam, who has carried hope along with his saucepans, eventually has to discard perhaps not hope that the quest will succeed, but certainly hope that he and Frodo will survive afterwards. Théoden, too, realizes that there is very little hope, if any, in Rohan's riding out...yet he leads them out anyway, because he knows it is not only his duty but the right thing to do.


We see it too in the choices of the Elves, to continue fighting on, even though when the right thing is accomplished, all that they have worked for will eventually fade and be lost; Aragorn says this as he, Gimli, and Legolas face the pile of burnt orcs, thinking Merry and Pippin are dead too--"This is a bitter end to our hopes and to our toil," Gimli says. But Aragorn replied, "To hope, maybe, but not to toil." We see it too in Faramir's choice to honor his father's order to ride out once more, and also in Treebeard's acknowledgment that though this might be the last march of the Ents, it is an end well worth the coming to.


Despair is the absence of hope, the absence of acknowledgment that there is anything beyond a person's understanding. Yet it is something we choose... In TTT Gandalf says he has no counsel for those who despair, for there is nothing there to work with; it is a refusal to step forward. Denethor chooses this despair, giving us a fine foil for Théoden's last courage.


Yes, there is a "higher" hope, greater than an "earthly" one that depends upon "success."




In Reply To
In Reply To


In Reply To
We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one seems an interesting statement.

Seeking without hope--isn't that what Frodo's mission becomes? Sam will continuously buttress Frodo's spirits in Mordor, but Frodo will just soldier on without hoping to survive, and not even hoping 100% that his mission will succeed, he just tries, tries, tries. I think that's a philosophical brick in the foundation of the whole story, that you seek for victory without hoping, which doesn't mean you despair, but it means you don't count on success as fore-ordained. Which I suppose balances the whole "thou art the Chosen One according to Prophecy" which makes things too easy. If you think of how Theoden talks before Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields, he goes to war, hoping to win, of course, because he's not just showing up and not surrendering, but he's not convinced they'll win or that they'll survive. I think this demonstrates the courage of the characters who are willing to pursue actions without certainty of success. They have more courage than hope, let's say. But they're not without hope, just not 100% hopeful and confident. (And if they were, they'd seem cocky.)

Love all of this, CG: that victory without assurance is different than despair. A detail that Denethor misunderstood, in his rather self-imposed misery.

And I agree on Théoden: that wonderful line to Merry, where to Merry's cry that he shall be as a father to him, Théoden says (with such elegant, understated courage) "for a little while". Théoden knows that even a victory will likely be his end: but this does not make him despair either; not after the stain of Saruman and Wormtongue is lifted from him. It is the higher victory that matters to the reborn Théoden, healed by Gandalf.





“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”


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