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**Fellowship of the Ring Discussion - Council of Elrond - Thread 4 of 4: What shall we do with the Ring? **
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 14 2015, 10:04am

Post #1 of 38 (3360 views)
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**Fellowship of the Ring Discussion - Council of Elrond - Thread 4 of 4: What shall we do with the Ring? ** Can't Post

Welcome to the last instalment of our Council of Elrond discussion. By page, this covers from Gandalf’s comment “But we have not yet come any nearer to our purpose, What shall we do with [the Ring].” to the end of the chapter. Thematically, it will naturally cover the Council’s decisions. Also, I’m looking forward to discussing what all this might mean about fate, divine or supernatural intervention and free will in Middle-earth. That’s a theme that is suggested by three key events throughout the chapter - but now we cover perhaps the most striking: Frodo’s decision to bear the Ring onwards, and Elrond’s interpretation of it.

The last thread is also the obvious point to pick up Any Other Business (this is a committee meeting chapter, after all!)

What follows is a digest of this section of the chapter, with some questions and comments. Then, expecting that Middle-earth philosophy might not be everyone’s cup of tea, I’ll make a subthread about the fate and free will aspect.

Please feel free to answer any, all or none of the discussion prompts that follow below - as always the idea is to have a discussion, not to pose a quiz. Alternatively, please do ask your own questions, or to make your own comments, opinions and observations.

In summary, in this section, the meeting (finally) discusses what to do next. It rules out the options of:
Withholding the Ring from Sauron by force
Evacuating it “over the Sea”
Disposing of it in the Deep Sea, or some other inaccessible place in Middle-earth
Using it, or another of the Great Rings, as a weapon against Sauron

On the basis that none of these options are workable, Gandalf and Elrond (Tolkien really!) reveal What Has Got To Happen in this story - someone must take the Ring to Mt Doom and destroy it. Frodo volunteers somewhat reluctantly, and after a significant internal struggle.

In summary, my main questions are:
Is Mt Doom really the only option? Are the others debated properly and their defects convincing, or is Tolkien railroading us towards the decision that is essential for his plot-line (and if so, does that matter)?

How does Frodo reach his decision, and how free really is he to do so (a sub-thread about fate, free will and related matters)



Please feel free to stop reading at this point and start posting your thoughts! I'm about to post 3 sub-threads:

1) As I have done before, a summary of the events of this section of the chapter, and some more detailed and specific comments and discussion prompts.

2) A sub-thread to cover Frodo's internal struggle to take the Ring, and other aspects that seem to speak of divine intervention or fate and the interaction of these forces with free will.

3) Some personal thoughts - very much stimulated by our discussion in the last 3 treads about the structure of this chapter, and it's purposes in the story.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 14 2015, 10:06am

Post #2 of 38 (3259 views)
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What shall we do with the Ring - detail of this section and discussion prompts [In reply to] Can't Post

When Gandalf has finished speaking, Elrond muses aloud on some of the news. Talk turns to Tom Bombadil - as he is apparently immune to the Ring, might he be able to help? Gandalf rules this out - Bombadill is too irresponsible, and besides it would be difficult now to return the Ring to him secretly. Nor could he, or any other power keep the Ring from the enemy by strength.

Glorfindel sums up their options with the Ring: if they can’t withhold the Ring by force, they must send it over the sea, or destroy it. But neither is an option.

How about deep-Sea disposal? asks Glorfindel. The objection raised are that:
It would be a temporary respite only: in the end, the Ring would be found again.
Sauron will expect this and may have counter-measures ready - in particular, he might seize the coastline, thereby trapping the elves in Middle-earth.

Only one thing for it, Gandalf and Elrond argue - “We must send the Ring to the Fire”.

Gandalf (and Tolkien!) of course has Mt Doom in mind, and may be eager to dismiss all other options. But do these objections make sense: is the deep-sea disposal option properly considered?
I can think of a number of objections, which we might like to discuss along with your own thoughts:
Could Sauron realistically march up the coast quickly enough to stop the dumping of the Ring, or to learn much of its disposal site?
Do we hear anything suggesting that Sauron actually tries this strategy? Remember that it is not clear - to me at least - how long it takes Sauron to realise in the coming chapters that the Ring has gone east not west. There might be time for him to believe it has gone to the coast and initiate his plans accordingly. Or if he has forces to spare, why not march up the coast anyway, outflanking his enemies?
Is the concern about the Havens a bit “elf-centred”? That is, if trapped in Middle-earth until death by the capture of their Havens, aren’t the elves in the same boat as every other race, though with more confidence about their fate after a death in battle? (Actually, would Sauron desperately want to avoid cutting of the Havens and making death the only remaining ship home for the elves? That is, would the resulting suicide squads of elven warriors be something of a problem for him?)

From The Shadow of the Past I infer that Sauron almost certainly has the forces to win a war in which the Ring is neither used nor destroyed. Wouldn’t that be a stronger argument for not dumping the Ring? Is it odd that nobody uses this argument?


Is all of this to miss the point that LOTR is a story about having the courage to “make a final end to this menace”, and that thinking of it in terms of wargames and strategies is moot? If so, how do you think Tolkien does with his attempt to persuade us that taking the Ring to Mount doom is the only reasonable option, as well as the one that his story requires?

Boromir raises a further option - why have they not considered using the Ring as a weapon? He “doubtfully” accepts the correctio that this would only be to raise a new Dark Lord.
I’m once again impressed with the handling of Boromir’s character in this writing. On the one hand, he only raises a point that many readers might be wondering about - indeed, as the Persons Who Knows Least in this meeting, he has been a very useful reader-surrogate on several occasions. But f course using him to voice this question foreshadows the problems he and his father will both have with the Ring as the story proceeds.
Any thoughts on Boromir’s suggestion and its handling (handling by the other characters at the Council, OR handling by Tolkien as writer)?

The other Rings can’t be used as weapons either: Sauron has regained the 7 and the 9: the 3 were never weapons, though the Elves are in a bind for having them, as all that they have built using them is now in jeopardy.

Erestor ventures that taking the Ring to Mt Doom might be despair or folly. Gandalf counters that it is not despair (admittedly on rather technical grounds of definition) and nor is it folly (on the grounds that he claims it is the only option left). But he suggests it’s an advantage that the plan sounds so crazy: Sauron will never suspect it, not least because he could never make himself renounce the Ring.
Sophistry? Do these arguments make sense, or are we and the meeting being railroaded towards the conclusion Gandalf (and Tolkien) want?

Bilbo offers (sincerely if impractically) to take the Ring. But his offer is gently refused. Who then?

Silence.

Then Frodo volunteers, after a peculiar internal struggle that makes me place that momentous decision in a subthread about free will and fate (see below!)

In the book there is no heartwarming everyone-volunteers sequence as in Peter Jackson’s film (“you have my sword...” etc.). And - trivial but fun - nobody christens the party “The Fellowship of the Ring”. In fact, I don’t believe they are ever referred to in this way in the text (as opposed to book titles, appendices etc.). It is, for example “The Company” that halts at Balin’s tomb in Moria.

That leaves Sam to close the chapter, indignantly jumping up at the idea of Frodo going alone, and once again being conscripted to go with him, somewhat like the end of Book 1/Chapter 2, The Shadow of The Past.
What on (Middle-)earth would Gandalf and Elrond have done if Frodo had NOT volunteered? Do you imagine they had a “Plan B”?

Does Sam volunteer, or is he volunteered (that is, someone makes the choice for him)? What is your feeling about how Sam is treated? How do you suppose Sam feels about it?


And of course - do you have Any Other Business?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 14 2015, 10:07am

Post #3 of 38 (3271 views)
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Subthread - “It is so ordered” divine intervention, fate and free will, including Frodo volunteering. [In reply to] Can't Post

 In this chapter I see three key points at which we are asked to accept that fate, or some form of divine or supernatural will is shaping events (or at least partly shaping them). Or, if you prefer, it is clear that the characters whose discussion we are reading believe this is so. For a reader of LOTR only, we know nothing about any gods or supernatural forces. Once the Silmarillion was published, its readers encountered Eru and the Valar, who might be taken to be active participants directing Frodo’s adventures (or at least offering characters signs to read in order to judge the correct thing to do).


The events I’ve noted (do comment on any others in this chapter!) are:

(a) Elrond claims that it has been “so ordered” that the Council be the authority to decide what to do with the Ring.


Quote
‘What shall we do with the Ring, the least of rings, the trifle that Sauron fancies? That is the doom that we must deem.

‘That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come here and here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.’

(my italics)


This is important stuff: the Council thereby declares itself the authority to plan a strategy to counter Sauron, which could readily go wrong and imperil the whole of Middle-earth. Nobody raises the slightest opposition to the idea that the delegates have been assembled by some outside and benevolent force.

(b) Boromir announces that he has come to seek help understanding an oracular dream. Nobody doubts that the dream could potentially be oracular, and Aragorn takes it as a summons to go to Minas Tirith and become King.


(c) Frodo volunteers to take the Ring, after a peculiar internal struggle - something I’d like to look at in more detail:


Frodo volunteers - or does he? We read an insight into Frodo’s thought processes just before he makes this fateful choice, and it suggests to me that a lot is going on:


Quote
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
‘I will take the Ring,’ he said, ‘though I do not know the way.’


As I read this, Frodo struggles to do what he thinks he ought to do as opposed to what he’d like to do. He feels assisted - or even controlled - by some unexpected power. Or maybe more than one power?. This raises a number of questions we might want to discuss. Do you see this other voice as a literal thing, suggesting that another will (or more than one) is literally imposing itself on Frodo’s? Or is this an internal psychological struggle purely within Frodo himself? If there is an outside influence who or what is it, and why does it intervene?

Is you reading that, in the end, Frodo has chosen of his free will - or has he been coerced?


This scene reminds me of the one at the end of FOTR, on Amon Hen, where we see Frodo’s mind once again as the battleground of seemingly external forces. But there are interesting differences - for one, the external nature of the forces on Amon Hen are pretty clear: one we infer to be Sauron, seeking the Ring; Gandalf’s comments later suggest that he was the other. On Amon Hen, one force seeks to coerce Frodo, the other to remind him to choose: to coerce him to be himself, of that is coercion at all.. These seem to cancel out, leaving Frodo with just a moment to be himself - and he does choose (to take of the Ring, and be concealed once more). Do you see similarities? Differences? Ways in which these two scenes are related?


In reaction to Frodo’s choice, Elrond makes a most interesting and seemingly contradictory comment. He seems to say that Frodo can and must choose freely to take the Ring, but that he is “meant” to do so (and that no one else can succeed, were Frodo to refuse):


Quote
Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. 'If I understand alright all that I have heard,' he said, 'I think this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.' ...

‘But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you, but if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty Elf-friends of old, Hador, and Hurin, and Turin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them.’


So what does this mean, that this task is “appointed” to Frodo (re-inforcing Gandalf’s earlier comments that Frodo is “meant to have the ring”. Are we to read “appointed”, “meant” as a plan or intention formed by somebody, but not one that is bound to come about?

To give an example, Bilbo might credibly say “When I appointed Frodo my heir and left him the Ring I never meant to put him in danger” That is, Bilbo had a plan and an expectation of how things might work out, but he was neither infallible nor omnipotent, so things haven’t worked out as he meant them to.

Conversely, is Frodo fated, or doomed? There are many myths folktales and other stories in which something is destined to happen “meant” as in “written in the stars”. Example:Jonah is appointed by God to go to Ninnevah. He’s meant to go to Ninnevah, but runs away instead. However, his flight turns into part of the story of him finally arriving at Ninnevah, now prepared to do what he was “meant” to do. In Jonah the force directing Jonah is very explicit - but in many other stories, there is a device of a fate you can’t avoid even if you try to. Such devices of fate occur elsewhere in Tolkien’s stories: Bilbo is surprised that he has been part of the means by which a prophecy has come true; a terrible oath dives Feanor and his sons; a curse is placed upon the Children of Hurin. (It’s also true though that readers are never forced to believe that these devices truly drive the action - it’s never explicit that the characters truly have lost the ability to choose: perhaps they merely think they are bound by these fates.)


If we assume that Frodo has a choice to take that appointment, then clearly Elrond thinks that it’s a moral matter: one choice would be “right” (and so by implication the opposite choice would be wrong). Is the idea that a person in Middle-earth should try to work out what their fate - or the divine plan as it concerns them - is, and then act accordingly (a correct choice being “good” or “right”)?Or is the implication something else?


In the end I suppose the only empirical way we could know that Frodo had free will about taking the Ring would be had demonstrated this by refusing the task. What would happen then? Would he somehow have ended up taking it anyway - perhaps his very refusal to take on the task being, Jonah like, the way in which he was put on the road to accomplishing it? Or would someone else have tried to do it - and, if Elrond was right - most likely failed?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 14 2015, 10:10am

Post #4 of 38 (3266 views)
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Some personal opinions about the chapter structure, and it’s non-obvious purposes [In reply to] Can't Post

On the face of it, it's a very realistic account of a meeting. Speakers wander off subject or speak over-long. Others interrupt, sometimes with simple injections of surprise or disagreement, but sometimes with substantial interruptions that take the conversation off on a tangent. Some present are too eager to speak, and some reluctant. Some obviously have their own agendas, and push them forward at the first opportunity -not always at the best time.Some answer questions indirectly - especially by giving long, eye-witness accounts. There are complaints that the meeting is taking too long, or has yet to make a decision; there are disagreements, things left unresolved, and awkward silences. All these things seem utterly authentic to anyone who has spent much time in meetings. It's far from a straightforward presentation of what Tolkien wants us readers to know. That's important - it would, I think quickly start to seem bogus if the speakers were too obviously working as a team. Where speakers do re-inforce each other to seems natural - Aragorn smoothly takes over Gandalf’s account of the hunt for Gollum, but in a natural way that suggests the long collaboration and mutual respect between them. Speakers are at pains to concede Boromir’s points - but it seems like a natural way of handling someone who is all too prone to interrupt.

As we’ve discussed, we also learn a lot about the characters (especially Boromir) by what they say and how they say it.

But whilst the discussion seems an all-too-realistic mess, Tolkien actually manages smoothly to build up a picture of Middle-earth on the eve of the War of the Ring, as well as completing a history of the Ring. Even Boromir's speech and Aragorn's reaction - a point at which the meeting seems to have wandered off its agenda altogether, as meetings all too easily do - occur in the "right" place. The place in the chapter is right firstly in that discussion of the decline of Gondor is thereby followed by the first step towards its recovery. Secondly, it gives breathing space between the revelation of Aragorn's identity and the true denouement of the chapter - Frodo's acceptance that he will take the Ring to Mordor.

Our discussion of this chapter has also caused me to re-think what this chapter contributes to the story.

It’s easy to infer that the purpose of this chapter is an exposition for us readers - we, like the delegates in the meeting, are to be convinced that Frodo’s Ring is the One Ring; that it must be sneaked into Mordor and thrown into Mt. Doom; and that Frodo must do this. But - as we’ve been discussing - we readers already know a lot of that from Shadow of the Past, and we infer that Elrond and Gandalf (at least) have these outcomes clearly in mind as the way the meeting should go.

One way I’ve been thinking about this chapter’s contribution is to imagine trying to do without it. As you will see, I don’t think that turns out to be an improvement, and the reasons why hint at other purposes of the chapter.

Starting when Frodo wakes up in Rivendell, he (and us readers) are surprised to see Gandalf, and naturally want to know where he’s been. Frodo,of course, asks that right away: and the answer is deliberately postponed to include the material in Council of Elrond. The same thing happens when Frodo wants to know why Gloin has come to Rivendell. Tolkien chooses to build a little suspense - a hastier writer could have given us Gandalf’s news (so that we hear of Saruman and Rohan) and Gloin’s news (so that we hear of Moria) on the spot.

Other business we need to dispatch? We need to learn that (a) Aragorn is the heir to Isildur, and (b) set him off towards Minas Tirith to reclaim his throne. Bilbo nearly does (a) in the Hall of Fire, and so could do all of (a), whereas Aragorn says that there’s a prophecy (that fantasy hack-writer’s much-used tool!) that The Sword-that-was-broken is to be reforged and the crown reclaimed once the Ring is found. So that could do all of (b).

Lastly, Frodo and the Hobbits not only sound like a folk band, they are clearly not up to the next part of the Quest: they’ve barely made it to Rivendell alive. New companions are needed, one of whom at least is to fall prey to the Ring. These new characters need to be introduced, therefore - but I suppose introductions could wait until The Ring Goes South, with Gandalf and Elrond introducing Frodo to the bodyguard they’ve picked for him.

Did I miss anything? Even if I did, I think it’s clear that it wouldn't be as good. A lot of this business is done painlessly under our noses while we are distracted by the meeting, and seeing it all happen on the porch is more dramatic. In particular, while there is no “You have my sword...” sequence, we do get the feeling that Frodo comes out of the meeting the Hero of the Free Peoples, leading his unique part of the counter-offensive against Sauron. This, I think, moves the story up some gears from Book 1, which quickly becomes Hobbits On The Run, barely making it to Rivendell.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 14 2015, 12:09pm

Post #5 of 38 (3249 views)
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Options [In reply to] Can't Post

Is Mt Doom really the only option? Are the others debated properly and their defects convincing, or is Tolkien railroading us towards the decision that is essential for his plot-line (and if so, does that matter)?

The Ring cannot be used because it will turn any attempt to wield it to evil. Even if it could successfully be used against Sauron, the weilder is likely to be corrupted into a new Dark Lord as bad or worse than its creator.

The Ring might be permanently denied to its maker. It could be taken far out to sea and cast away, or otherwise be made inaccessable. However, Sauron does not have the Ring now and how is that working out? The Enemy has already regained enough power to overcome the Free Peoples; simply denying him the Master Ring doesn't change that. The only hope lies in its unmaking.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 14 2015, 12:20pm

Post #6 of 38 (3240 views)
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The "nothing to lose" option [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
However, Sauron does not have the Ring now and how is that working out? The Enemy has already regained enough power to overcome the Free Peoples; simply denying him the Master Ring doesn't change that. The only hope lies in its unmaking.


That does seem a good argument, doesn't it. Gandalf hints at it in Shadow of the Past. So I keep expecting someone to make it in this chapter, but no-one does (unless, as is possible, I've repeatedly overlooked something...).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Apr 14 2015, 12:46pm

Post #7 of 38 (3237 views)
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Hmmm, if those four Uruk guards hadn't deserted their posts at Sammath Naur the outcome would have been quite grim..// [In reply to] Can't Post

 




noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 14 2015, 1:05pm

Post #8 of 38 (3241 views)
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Yes: that's the counter-argument isn't it! [In reply to] Can't Post

1) Without the Ring, Sauron can probably win.

2) If the Ring is destroyed, Sauron will be defeated by its destruction
...but the only way of destroying the Ring carries a BIG risk of Sauron getting the Ring and...

3) If Sauron gets the Ring, he becomes unstoppable.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 14 2015, 1:22pm

Post #9 of 38 (3246 views)
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JRRT and Frodo the Volunteer [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if the professor's wartime experience played a part here. I can picture a staff meeting, "We attack after an artillery barrage at 0600. We'll need a junior officer to lead the charge out of our trenches and advancing into the enemy machine guns. Do we have a volunteer?" And then after a pregnant pause some young lieutenant is amazed to hear his own voice saying, "Be happy to do that, sir."


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Apr 14 2015, 1:44pm

Post #10 of 38 (3246 views)
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Hero or conscript [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
‘I will take the Ring,’ he said, ‘though I do not know the way.’



In Reply To
As I read this, Frodo struggles to do what he thinks he ought to do as opposed to what he’d like to do. He feels assisted - or even controlled - by some unexpected power. Or maybe more than one power?. This raises a number of questions we might want to discuss. Do you see this other voice as a literal thing, suggesting that another will (or more than one) is literally imposing itself on Frodo’s? Or is this an internal psychological struggle purely within Frodo himself? If there is an outside influence who or what is it, and why does it intervene?


I see no reason to bring an abstruse voice into the discussion. This takes away a portion of the free will that has been given to the ‘free peoples’ of Middle-earth.

At this point Frodo is still in possession of The Ring: “…he held it up before them in his trembling hand.”

The words I have emphasized above “but they were not turned to him” I had always envisioned as they were not turned to him but they WERE waiting for HIS response. I had always assumed that this “other voice” was simply his own conscience, “Well I have The Ring, the decision is mine, and they are waiting.”

“…and wondered to hear his own words…” is simply Tolkien/Frodo delving into the poetic. To give it more credence is to take from Frodo this first foray into the realm of the heroic. Yes, The Ring MAY have had a bite on him, but logic says that he should have given the job to one of the ‘Wise’ at the Council, with no disgrace – thus all praise to his decision, “I will take the Ring…”.




noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 14 2015, 3:48pm

Post #11 of 38 (3229 views)
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Eyes down - high noon for Frodo! "As if..." [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The words I have emphasized above “but they were not turned to him” I had always envisioned as they were not turned to him but they WERE waiting for HIS response. I had always assumed that this “other voice” was simply his own conscience, “Well I have The Ring, the decision is mine, and they are waiting.”


Thanks for picking “but they were not turned to him” out! Yes, nobody is saying "Well, I'm sure Frodo will take the Ring, won't you Frodo?". They are very much leaving him to his decision. I notice that other characters tend to do that - from Gandalf and Gildor in the Shire to Aragorn a the end of FOTR. I assume that either there is an over-riding moral code that it would be wrong to pressure him, or (more likely I think) the idea is that Frodo is likely to make the right decision, if left to his own devices.


But I'm sure the lack of eye contact doesn't help Frodo at all - he's very guided by his moral code, just as Boromir would be by his honour. He knows he ought to volunteer.

I've been noticing all the "as if's" in this passage - emboldened below:




Quote
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
‘I will take the Ring,’ he said, ‘though I do not know the way.’


It's a Fantastic Hesitation device, I think: (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=833138#833138 ). Or at least the 2nd and 3rd "as ifs" could be: I think the first one suggests that everyone else is waiting for Frodo! It means that one can read the passage as fully a matter of Frodo's psychology, or look for other meanings.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 14 2015, 3:55pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 14 2015, 5:40pm

Post #12 of 38 (3236 views)
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"...the kindling of hearts to courage." [In reply to] Can't Post

At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts. But I cannot pretend that I myself found that idea much comfort against the waste of time and militarism of the army. It isn't the tough stuff one minds so much. I was pitched into it all, just when I was full of stuff to write, and of things to learn; and never picked it all up again.
-Letter #40


Do you see this other voice as a literal thing, suggesting that another will (or more than one) is literally imposing itself on Frodo’s?

It’s the Ring! (No, not that one.)


Or is this an internal psychological struggle purely within Frodo himself?

Melendor has it, though for Signals Officer Tolkien it would be "Who'll volunteer to crawl out in the dead of night into the mud of no-man's-land and look for and repair all the broken telephone lines between command and the forward outposts? You'll have to do it in total silence otherwise the Germans will hear you, launch a star-shell, expose you clear as day, and cut you to pieces with machine-gun and mortar fire. It'll probably take you all night. Oh, that's right 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien, you're the only one here that's trained and qualified. Well, good luck!"

So yeah, Tolkien had plenty of experience with "volunteering".

Still, it’s interesting that Tolkien initially ignored such voices, both internal and external:

…and then war broke out the next year, while I still had a year to go at college. In those days chaps joined up, or were scorned publicly. It was a nasty cleft to be in, especially for a young man with too much imagination and little physical courage. No degree: no money: fiancée. I endured the obloquy, and hints becoming outspoken from relatives, stayed up, and produced a First in Finals in 1915. Bolted into the army: July 1915.
-Letter #43


If there is an outside influence who or what is it, and why does it intervene?

Now just who might have that sort of power….

“ For great labours and perils lie before you and lest your task prove too great and wearisome take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the Western shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it shall be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it to the kindling of hearts to courage.”
-Unfinished Tales, The Istari


Is you reading that, in the end, Frodo has chosen of his free will - or has he been coerced?

He was just given a little nudge out of the door, if any use of a Great Ring could be called “little” or a "nudge".


This scene reminds me of the one at the end of FOTR, on Amon Hen, where we see Frodo’s mind once again as the battleground of seemingly external forces. But there are interesting differences - for one, the external nature of the forces on Amon Hen are pretty clear: one we infer to be Sauron, seeking the Ring; Gandalf’s comments later suggest that he was the other. On Amon Hen, one force seeks to coerce Frodo, the other to remind him to choose: to coerce him to be himself, of that is coercion at all.. These seem to cancel out, leaving Frodo with just a moment to be himself - and he does choose (to take of the Ring, and be concealed once more). Do you see similarities? Differences? Ways in which these two scenes are related?

It’s easy enough to be brave and make a choice to bear the Ring in a comfortable room in a safe refuge surrounded by ancient Elf-lords, powerful Wizards, mighty warriors of Men, and loyal hobbit friends. It’s quite another to make the same choice all alone right on the doorstep of Mordor.


So what does this mean, that this task is “appointed” to Frodo (re-inforcing Gandalf’s earlier comments that Frodo is “meant to have the ring”. Are we to read “appointed”, “meant” as a plan or intention formed by somebody, but not one that is bound to come about?

Thence come maidens
much knowing
three from the hall
which under that tree stands;
Urd hight the one,
the second Verdandi,
on a tablet they graved,
Skuld the third;
Laws they established,
life allotted
to the sons of men,
destinies pronounced.

-Voluspa, The Poetic Edda

The three maidens are the Three Norns, or Fates: Urd ("that which happened"), Verdandi ("that which is happening"), and Skuld ("that which should happen”).

Now where have I heard that before….

”What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be."
-The Mirror of Galadriel


Conversely, is Frodo fated, or doomed?

As a Germanic Hero Frodo is fated, as a Classical Hero Sam is doomed.

Note the difference between the Germanic Norns and the Greek Fates:

…these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who are clothed in white robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis and Clotho and Atropos, who accompany with their voices the harmony of the sirens --Lachesis singing of the past, Clotho of the present, Atropos of the future…

All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the order of their choice to Lachesis, who sent with them the genius whom they had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and the fulfiller of the choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho, and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her hand, thus ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were fastened to this, carried them to Atropos, who spun the threads and made them irreversible,

-Plato, The Republic

Skuld’s “that which should happen” is quite different from Atropos’ “irreversible”.


If we assume that Frodo has a choice to take that appointment, then clearly Elrond thinks that it’s a moral matter: one choice would be “right” (and so by implication the opposite choice would be wrong). Is the idea that a person in Middle-earth should try to work out what their fate - or the divine plan as it concerns them - is, and then act accordingly (a correct choice being “good” or “right”)?

Fate often saves
an undoomed man if
his courage holds.

-Beowulf

“Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.”
-The Mirror of Galadriel

As Shippey notes in “The Ironic Background”, “The concept of 'wyrd', then, [is] more chaotic and less irresistible than the Classical one of Fate”.

A Germanic Hero can avoid his Fate or “wyrd”, a Classical Hero cannot. That means a Germanic Hero has individual choice. He may follow his destiny, or he may not. He may fight and die in Ragnarök, or decide to sleep in that day.

We see in Beowulf that what matters is honor (“A warrior will sooner / die than live a life of shame”).

So one should honor one’s wyrd. Frodo is meant to be the Ringbearer. For him to refuse it would be as wrong as for Aragorn to refuse to seek the crown of High King, or for Gandalf to refuse to serve as a Steward of Middle-earth.


Or is the implication something else?

Probably.

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Apr 14 2015, 6:29pm

Post #13 of 38 (3224 views)
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But it's such a pretty Golden Bauble. . . [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Gandalf (and Tolkien!) of course has Mt Doom in mind, and may be eager to dismiss all other options. But do these objections make sense: is the deep-sea disposal option properly considered?

Is all of this to miss the point that LOTR is a story about having the courage to “make a final end to this menace”, and that thinking of it in terms of wargames and strategies is moot? If so, how do you think Tolkien does with his attempt to persuade us that taking the Ring to Mount doom is the only reasonable option, as well as the one that his story requires?


I think the ‘deep-sea’ option was well considered and discarded, along with all other options except the Ring’s destruction.

Its destruction seems the only option, and yes, Tolkien (to me) makes this quite clear and logical.
It seems more than a possibility but almost a given that Sauron (or evil) would win out without its destruction (or interference from Eru himself, or the Valar). The battle on the Pelennor (though lost) was to Sauron but a testing trifle.
To paraphrase Imrahil speaking of the Army of the West as “the greatest jest (folly?) in the history of Middle-earth (something along those lines).

If the Ring wasn’t destroyed when it was it appears the Army of the West would have quite easily been wiped out, Eagles or no. Then Sauron would be positioned to achieve his evil ends without the Ring, and Lorien, Rivendell, etc. would have been lost, and all of N. Middle-earth would be enslaved to his will.

To roundup: Evil wins most quickly with the Ring. Evil wins albeit protracted without the Ring. Evil loses ONLY with the destruction of the Ring. This is not a story about having the courage to make a final end to this menace All arguments as to what to do with the Ring are (as you say) – “moot” – it MUST be destroyed! IMO




noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 15 2015, 8:57am

Post #14 of 38 (3170 views)
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Perhaps it's the best argument, but interestingly it's not used in this chapter. The objections to deep-sea disposal are interestingly different [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
To roundup: Evil wins most quickly with the Ring. Evil wins albeit protracted without the Ring. Evil loses ONLY with the destruction of the Ring. This is not a story about having the courage to make a final end to this menace All arguments as to what to do with the Ring are (as you say) – “moot” – it MUST be destroyed! IMO


I agree with that, which is why I think it's odd that nobody makes that argument in the meeting as far as I have been able to find: it's an argument that is used in The Last Debate only, as far as I can see.

I wonder why Tolkien does not use that argument at this point? I do't think it's because its so obvious it doesn't need saying - if anything the objections that are raised to deep-sea disposal seem incompatible with the idea that destruction of the Ring is the only possible survival option. Close analysis becomes quite interesting. The option of deep sea disposal is eliminated as follows:


Quote
'Then,' said Glorfindel, 'let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true...in the Sea it would be safe.'
'Not safe for ever,' said Gandalf. 'There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part her to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.'

'And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,' said Galdor. 'If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen.'


Several points of interest there, for our current discussion:

'Not safe for ever,' said Gandalf. - suggests that deep sea disposal might be temporarily helpful, but ...

...'There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part her to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. I read this as Gandalf thinking on a very long time-frame: after lifetimes(of Men) or even geological epochs, the Ring would surface again. This worry seems to me an odd one if the idea is that all the free peoples will be dead or Sauron's slaves within a season or two anyway. If the real problem is that Sauron is going to wipe the floor with us (perhaps literally - those nice absorbent mop-heads hobbits have...) unless we destroy the Ring and no other option will do, why doesn't Gandalf raise that objection right here if not before: that would, presumably shoot down any other option right away.

We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one seems an interesting statement.
Firstly, it continues with the idea that Gandalf, at least, is operating on a very long time-scale, possibly longer than any other delegate at the meeting can afford. He will later say to Denethor:


Quote
'The rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'


Does this mean, do you think, that he is willing if needs be to think beyond the temporary inconvenience of Middle-earth enslaved, the Havens in flames etc. And if so, is that an argument to which those bound to shorter time-scales should listen? Gandalf might be asking them all to sacrifice themselves for a very long-term concept of the greater good.

Secondly, here's that statement again with a couple of words emboldened, because they seem to make an odd distinction We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one . Why would one seek something for which there is no hope? It sounds odd (or more likely profound) to me. It is that statement that made me posit for discussion "Is all of this to miss the point that LOTR is a story about having the courage to “make a final end to this menace”, and that thinking of it in terms of wargames and strategies is moot?" I'm wondering whether this is a call to the code of honour - the obligation to react honourably to circumstances beyond your control, even if that implies your own death. Or are we getting into the more philosophical and psychological matters here - for example that any compromise with evil is corrupting?


Another item of interest from the quote I picked out is Galdor 'If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with gravest peril Well, yes - but isn't the Ring and its party in 'gravest peril' whichever direction they go in? Possibly heading for the coast is the expected option and sneaking into Mordor is not, but on the other hand, Sauron as yet has few assets in West Eriador (we think) and plenty further east. So if Galdor's argument is that it is too dangerous to travel West, I think that's specious.


So - plenty more to discuss here, I hope
Smile

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 15 2015, 12:11pm

Post #15 of 38 (3166 views)
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Someone else put on the spot - parallels with Feanor? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Yavanna spoke before the Valar, saying: "The Light of the Trees has passed away, and lives now only in the Silmarils of Fëanor. Foresighted was he! Even for those who are mightiest under Ilúvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Eä I can do so never again. Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the Trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurt should be healed, and the malice of Melkor be confounded.'

Then Manwë spoke and said: 'Hearest thou, Fëanor son of Finwë, the words of Yavanna? Wilt thou grant what she would ask?' There was long silence, but Fëanor answered no word. Then Tulkas cried: 'Speak, O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanna? And did not the light of the Silmarils come from her work in the beginning?' But Aulë the Maker said: 'Be not hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.' But Fëanor spoke then, and cried bitterly: 'For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.' 'Not the first,' said Mandos, but they did not understand his word; and again there was silence, while Fëanor brooded in the dark. It seemed to him that he was beset in a ring of enemies, and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the Silmarils were not safe, if the Valar would possess them. 'And is he not Vala as are they,' said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts? Yea, a thief shall reveal thieves!' Then he cried aloud: 'This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.' Then Mandos said: 'Thou hast spoken.'

[there is then a passage in which tidings come from Formenos that the Silmarils have already been stolen - so they were no longer in Fëanor's possession to give at the time he was asked, even had he been willing to sacrifice them.]

The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were.

Silmarillion, Ch 9 - Of the Flight of the Noldor


I thought I'd throw this into the conversation with a couple of pointers:
I'm thinking about how Tulkas interjection - effectively "how dare you not say yes right away!" might or might not be soothed over by Aulë more understanding response: the pressure really might not be helping Fëanor to agree! perhaps the Council of Elrond is kinds as well as more practical.

I'm also thinking about the line "and all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna;" It makes no practical difference - the Silmarils have gone - so presumably it makes a moral or psychological difference: it's important that Fëanor had been willing to give them up even theoretically - this has some bearing on what happens next

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 15 2015, 12:46pm

Post #16 of 38 (3177 views)
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Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth (ideas from an essay by Prof Flieger) [In reply to] Can't Post

"Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth" is the title of an excellent essay by Verlyn Flieger, which is published in the book "Green Suns And Faerie" (Kent State University press, 2012) and is very relevant to this part of our discussion.

Some caution is advised here - I am not sure I have fully understood Prof. Flieger's ideas on this (and if I haven't I do not blame Prof. Flieger). Lacking confidence in my understanding I can't decide whether I agree, nor can I do more than try sincerely not to misrepresent her, and to recommend her essay!

I did have this essay in mind when writing discussion prompts though so thought it only fair to bring it up now!

Prof Flieger argues that Middle-earth has both fate and free will. Fate, in that the world was created as a musical composition - The Music - and certain things are now bound to happen.

Free will in that:


Quote
Therefore he [Iluvatar] devised that Men should have a free virtue whereby within the limits of the powers and substances and chances of the world they might fashion and design their life beyond even the original Music...

[Lost Tales I, 59m, the earliest draft of this passage as quoted by in Prof Flieger's essay...


...which becomes, in the Silmarillion...]
they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed...

Silmarillion, 41-42 as quoted by Prof Flieger


So with that as background, Prof Flieger goes on to see Frodo's crisis as follows



Quote
The key lies in Frodo's "I will" at Rivendell, where he reluctantly volunteers for a job he does not want, and does not think he can do. "I will take the Ring," he announces, and the narrative adds the significant comment, "as if some other will was using his small voice"

...it seems reasonable to interpret this "other will" as Iluvatar's. But Iluvatar's will was to give Men free will. His will in this instance, therefore must be that Frodo, like Beren, make a free choice.

Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth" from the book "Green Suns And Faerie" (Verlyn Flieger, Kent State University press, 2012)


Wow. Possessed by Iluvatar. Or possibly "dispossessed" perhaps, if the point of the intervention is to ensure Frodo truly gets to choose.

I'm not sure what Iluvatar would be intervening to oppose - one can read the passage of Tolkien such that it would be Iluvatar vs. The Ring, or Iluvatar vs. peer pressure (or, of course, one might disagree with Prof Flieger at this point, & choose a purely psychological interpretation for Frodo's inner struggle - as per some of the arguments earlier in this thread.)

Another thing of interest is that Prof Flieger thinks it is literally only Men (including hobbits) who have this free will thing. Not elves. So, once he Ring rolls into Lorien and Galadriel has to choose to take it or not - presumably that's her fate at work, rather than her free will? (Note the question mark there: I don't know how Prof Flieger would answer).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 15 2015, 2:28pm

Post #17 of 38 (3170 views)
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“I have a cunning plan.” [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf (and Tolkien!) of course has Mt Doom in mind, and may be eager to dismiss all other options. But do these objections make sense: is the deep-sea disposal option properly considered?
I can think of a number of objections, which we might like to discuss along with your own thoughts:
Could Sauron realistically march up the coast quickly enough to stop the dumping of the Ring, or to learn much of its disposal site?
Do we hear anything suggesting that Sauron actually tries this strategy? Remember that it is not clear - to me at least - how long it takes Sauron to realise in the coming chapters that the Ring has gone east not west. There might be time for him to believe it has gone to the coast and initiate his plans accordingly. Or if he has forces to spare, why not march up the coast anyway, outflanking his enemies?


“There at Pelargir lay the main fleet of Umbar, fifty great ships and smaller vessels beyond count.”
-The Last Debate

Considering Great Britain had around 100 total ships-of-the-line (great ships) to blockade France during the Napoleonic War (combined North Sea, Baltic, Channel, and Mediterranean fleets), I’d say the Corsairs had enough strength to hold the western coastline if called upon.


Is the concern about the Havens a bit “elf-centred”?

They’re Elves. They live for thousands of years. By comparison everyone else has the life-spans of fruit flies. So who’s got priority?


That is, if trapped in Middle-earth until death by the capture of their Havens, aren’t the elves in the same boat as every other race, though with more confidence about their fate after a death in battle? (Actually, would Sauron desperately want to avoid cutting of the Havens and making death the only remaining ship home for the elves? That is, would the resulting suicide squads of elven warriors be something of a problem for him?)

Or more recruits:

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.
-The Silmarillion

As for the Elves, the terror of being captured and subjected to a fate literally worse than death could be quite daunting.


From The Shadow of the Past I infer that Sauron almost certainly has the forces to win a war in which the Ring is neither used nor destroyed. Wouldn’t that be a stronger argument for not dumping the Ring?

Yes.


Is it odd that nobody uses this argument?

Too busy putting a bright face on things:

`May the day not be too long delayed,' said Boromir. 'For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. It would comfort us to know that others fought also with all the means that they have.'
`Then be comforted,' said Elrond. `For there are other powers and realms that you know not, and they are hidden from you. Anduin the Great flows past many shores, ere it comes to Argonath and the Gates of Gondor.'
'Still it might be well for all,' said Glóin the Dwarf, 'if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.’



Is all of this to miss the point that LOTR is a story about having the courage to “make a final end to this menace”, and that thinking of it in terms of wargames and strategies is moot?

Of course we’re not yet sure of the state of the Western Allies.


If so, how do you think Tolkien does with his attempt to persuade us that taking the Ring to Mount doom is the only reasonable option, as well as the one that his story requires?

Actually he throws reason out the window:

’That is the path of despair. Of folly I would say, if the long wisdom of Elrond did not forbid me.'
'Despair, or folly?' said Gandalf. `It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.'
'At least for a while,' said Elrond. `The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it.’



Boromir raises a further option - why have they not considered using the Ring as a weapon? He “doubtfully” accepts the correctio that this would only be to raise a new Dark Lord.
I’m once again impressed with the handling of Boromir’s character in this writing. On the one hand, he only raises a point that many readers might be wondering about - indeed, as the Persons Who Knows Least in this meeting, he has been a very useful reader-surrogate on several occasions. But f course using him to voice this question foreshadows the problems he and his father will both have with the Ring as the story proceeds.
Any thoughts on Boromir’s suggestion and its handling (handling by the other characters at the Council, OR handling by Tolkien as writer)?


I’m reminded of the little boy who is warned that masturbation will make him blind. He replies that in that case he’ll just do it until he needs glasses.

Similarly, why can’t someone just use the One Ring until they’re a little bit corrupted then quit and hand it over to someone else? I mean, that’s what happened with Bilbo and Frodo, right? Using the ring didn’t make them all evil all at once. Bilbo was able to give up the Ring after the Long Expected Party, and Frodo was (apparently) going to be able to give up the Ring at the Council of Elrond.

But not using evil to defeat evil is kinda Tolkien’s point. (But then what about Aragorn using the Dead?)


The other Rings can’t be used as weapons either: Sauron has regained the 7 and the 9: the 3 were never weapons, though the Elves are in a bind for having them, as all that they have built using them is now in jeopardy.

So why does Sauron want them? Does he know something the Elves don’t?


Erestor ventures that taking the Ring to Mt Doom might be despair or folly. Gandalf counters that it is not despair (admittedly on rather technical grounds of definition) and nor is it folly (on the grounds that he claims it is the only option left).

Baldrick: “I have a cunning plan.”
Blackadder: “Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. Contemptible. Worth a try.”



But he suggests it’s an advantage that the plan sounds so crazy: Sauron will never suspect it, not least because he could never make himself renounce the Ring.
Sophistry?


“It’s just crazy enough to work!”
-The Fey Team


Do these arguments make sense, or are we and the meeting being railroaded towards the conclusion Gandalf (and Tolkien) want?

Frodo is getting what you call "facilitated".


Bilbo offers (sincerely if impractically) to take the Ring.

Emphasizing that this is a Baggins familial responsibility and the only other Baggins is….


But his offer is gently refused. Who then?

Now’s the time for someone to pay for all those years of generous room and board. Think Gandalf may have suggested Frodo’s adoption with this in mind?


What on (Middle-)earth would Gandalf and Elrond have done if Frodo had NOT volunteered?

There’s still two more hobbits hanging around. If Frodo can’t be convinced to go in Bilbo’s place then maybe Merry and Pippin could be convinced to go in Frodo’s.


Do you imagine they had a “Plan B”?

Plan M&P.


Does Sam volunteer, or is he volunteered (that is, someone makes the choice for him)?

Yes.

Someone deliberately chose to set up the circumstances so Sam would volunteer.


What is your feeling about how Sam is treated?

Stealth hobbit.


How do you suppose Sam feels about it?

He’s used to it.

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 15 2015, 2:47pm

Post #18 of 38 (3135 views)
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:) Aha - "Instead of a Dark Lord you would have a Tag Team! " [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Similarly, why can’t someone just use the One Ring until they’re a little bit corrupted then quit and hand it over to someone else? I mean, that’s what happened with Bilbo and Frodo, right? Using the ring didn’t make them all evil all at once. Bilbo was able to give up the Ring after the Long Expected Party, and Frodo was (apparently) going to be able to give up the Ring at the Council of Elrond.


it's the "then quit and hand it over to someone else" but that might be problematic...
Wink

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 15 2015, 7:15pm

Post #19 of 38 (3142 views)
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"Being There" [In reply to] Can't Post

“Conscience manifests itself as the call of care.”
-Martin Heidegger, Being and Time

That is, Heidegger sees conscience as the voice of the “Being-there" or the “owned self” versus “the They” or the “unowned-self”. So actually the small voice is Frodo’s own true voice, not the communal hobbit who "never had any adventures or did anything unexpected" whose voice was such that “you could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him”.

The "other will" is indeed the true will of Frodo overruling the false will of hobbity inertia, provincialism, and isolationism.

Only the real Frodo would say "I will take the Ring though I do not know the way".

That voice is his and his alone.

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 15 2015, 7:15pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 16 2015, 11:44pm

Post #20 of 38 (3086 views)
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Give it to Captain Nemo or the Little Mermaid to bury under the sea; and seeking w/o hope [In reply to] Can't Post

As for dumping the Ring in the sea, I do think they have the time and resources to do that. Rather than entrust a few hobbits on foot or on ponies, put together a troupe of High Elves on horsesback in Rivendell, have them ride quickly to the Havens, and take the first ship out and dump it far at sea. That happens before Umbar could do anything or Sauron could invade by land. Way, way too easy.

But Gandalf is being prescient in saying: "...'There are many things in the deep waters;"

There are deep things under Moria that no one knew about, and look how one was driven out to become the Watcher of the Hollin Gate. If Sauron and his minions can pull that off, can they find octopi and whales to go siphoning through the seabed until they find the One? OK, that's far-fetched without some GPS coordinates involved, but I'll stick with Gandalf in saying that there are creatures in the deep sea that can surprise you, just as Ungoliant came out of nowhere and helped darken Valinor. Is there some Ungoliant-like shark in the sea that could sniff out the Ring and deliver it to Sauron? Who knows? We can't take that chance.


In Reply To
We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one seems an interesting statement.

Seeking without hope--isn't that what Frodo's mission becomes? Sam will continuously buttress Frodo's spirits in Mordor, but Frodo will just soldier on without hoping to survive, and not even hoping 100% that his mission will succeed, he just tries, tries, tries. I think that's a philosophical brick in the foundation of the whole story, that you seek for victory without hoping, which doesn't mean you despair, but it means you don't count on success as fore-ordained. Which I suppose balances the whole "thou art the Chosen One according to Prophecy" which makes things too easy. If you think of how Theoden talks before Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields, he goes to war, hoping to win, of course, because he's not just showing up and not surrendering, but he's not convinced they'll win or that they'll survive. I think this demonstrates the courage of the characters who are willing to pursue actions without certainty of success. They have more courage than hope, let's say. But they're not without hope, just not 100% hopeful and confident. (And if they were, they'd seem cocky.)

There's a literary advantage to this "seeking without hope" angle. In books and movies where the Movers & Shakers agree on a plan and are certain it works, it seems for plot reasons that something has to go wrong or it would be too boring and obvious. Ultimately things work out, but the plan itself fails in the details: the bridge doesn't blow up like it should, or the missiles targeting the Death Star don't fire straight down the hole like they should so you have to use the Force instead, or whatever. But if the heroes say, "Well, this is the best we can do, and it's probably going to fail," you don't really expect it to.



CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 17 2015, 12:09am

Post #21 of 38 (3092 views)
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Slicing and dicing that passage [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke . Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo’s side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
‘I will take the Ring,’ he said, ‘though I do not know the way.’

I seem to change my opinion of what's happening in this passage every few years, and yet I'm never fully convinced of just one point of view.

On the one hand, it's quite disturbing to me that some Outer Presence is invading Frodo's mind and making this decision for him, but it can be interpreted that way. He speaks with an effort, as if there not his own words at all, and he's surprised to hear them. Does that sound like being spiritually or telepathically possessed, or not? Shouldn't we call an exorcist?

Or is he surprised to hear himself take on this horrible challenge, as surprised as he was to attack the Barrow-wight, the Witch-King, and the cave-troll? It's possible that a life of easy aristocracy has convinced the respectable Baggins in Frodo that he's a softie, while the Took/Brandybuck in him is doing the talking here, just as the Took in Bilbo often acted up in The Hobbit.

A third possibility is that Frodo is having an epiphany of sorts, foreshadowing the Mirror of Galadriel, when he suddenly sees and understands many things he didn't perceive before. He's no longer Frodo Baggins of Bag End, but a sentient being who sees what's at stake in this big, horrible game of Good and Evil, and he sees that he can play a part in it, and it's that briefly but spiritually enlightened part of him that speaks up, and that's why he doesn't recognize the presence/voice, because we spend most of our lives outside of epiphanies and they seem foreign to us when they occur.

Thus, depending on what's really happening (and I've only listed 3 possibilities; there could be many more), it could be external manipulation or free will or an epiphany. And just as there are things that exist in the story that are outside of the Tug of War Between Good and Evil (such as Bombadil, and the Minas Tirith rooster crowing and reckoning nothing of war but merely welcoming the dawn), it's possible that Frodo too is having a brief glimpse of himself and the world outside the machinations of the Wise and Dark Lord. If that's the case, then Amon Hen is a repeat of that moment of lucidity, where good and evil cancel each other out and Frodo is afforded total freedom to act and be himself, and possibly that's what he's doing in this situation. Accepting the challenge might be the freest thing he's ever done, and that pure freedom of thought at the onset might be the reason he comes as close enduring the oppression of the Ring and as close to succeeding with the quest as he does.

Gandalf said of Bilbo vs Gollum in The Shadow of the Past:

Quote
‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.’

Gandalf says Bilbo was rewarded (by someone or something) for taking the Ring with pity and mercy. Is Frodo being set up for his own reward (being rescued on Mt Doom, and later going to Valinor) by accepting the quest with complete freedom of purpose? It seems to matter how one takes on the Ring. Isildur kept it out of revenge and came to a bad end. Smeagol murdered to get it. The Baggins boys showed purer motives and had much better results with it.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 17 2015, 12:13am

Post #22 of 38 (3078 views)
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The context of choices [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were.

I think Tolkien makes a point out of this rather than brushing it aside. He thought it mattered deeply how you approach a decision and what mood you're in. The context of your choice affects many choices afterwards that you can't foresee. There's a strong parallel with Frodo at Elrond's Council too.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 17 2015, 10:48am

Post #23 of 38 (3055 views)
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I think so too... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think Tolkien makes a point out of this [that things might have been different in some way had Feanor agreed to sacrifice the silmarils, even though in practical terms he no longer has them to sacrifice] rather than brushing it aside. He thought it mattered deeply how you approach a decision and what mood you're in. The context of your choice affects many choices afterwards that you can't foresee. There's a strong parallel with Frodo at Elrond's Council too.



In the Flieger essay I mentioned over here-
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=849627#849627 - Prof Flieger thinks the idea is that, had Feanor agreed to surrender the Silamarils for the common good, that would remove the anger and resentment that drives his next actions (which are to drive the Noldor into a frenzy, swear that terrible oath, massacre those who won't assist the Noldor to leave...)

Prof Flieger sees Feanor, an elf, as being bound by his fate within "The Music" in a way that Men are not. But this wouldn't make his yes/no choice completely futile either, she argues: the circumstances matter. Prof Flieger gives a parallel of killing someone in self-defence as opposed to killing in revenge: the practical outcome is the same, but the acts are judged differently.

I had thought that Flieger gave the following what-if for Feanor (but I can't find that now, so maybe it was me trying t think this through). Let's suppose Feanor's better feelings triumph and he agrees to give up the Silmarils to rekindle the trees. Maybe his fate is to go to Middle-earth and die trying to recover them anyway, but that would have a different meaning if he fell in battle as part of an official, Valar-sponsored invasion force. (Or, doubtless, other scenarios could be concocted...)

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 17 2015, 10:48am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 17 2015, 10:54am

Post #24 of 38 (3056 views)
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I really like that analysis! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 17 2015, 11:28am

Post #25 of 38 (3058 views)
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The honourable, the moral, and the practical [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that puts it very well!

I notice that having decided upon a moral/honourable course of action regardless of the chances of success, characters are pretty practical about things:

Frodo is willing, if needs be, to march straight towards the Black Gate - but he abandons that plan as soon as Smeagol suggests a more realistic alternative.

Having decided to go to war, Theoden uses his military skill to give him the best chance - no matter how small a chance "best" might be.

Neither needs to choose a ridiculously impractical glory-hound course of action.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154

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