Gandalf answers Galdor’s question with logic- what other Ring would Sauron pursue in the way they have seen? Gandalf could carry on in that way - arguing that (1) Frodo's Ring matches exactly the description of the One Ring made by Isildur (especially the hidden inscription), and; (2) Frodo's Ring is shown to be a Great Ring because it prolongs mortal life. But if it is a Great Ring it cannot be one of the 3, 7 or 9 because it does not match their descriptions (they have jewels) and in any case their whereabouts are known. Logically therefore, Frodo's Ring must be either the One Ring, or a previously unknown Great Ring which resembles the One Ring closely. Line of Argument (3) Is that Isildur disappeared MIA in the place later inhabited by Smeagol and his clan. So Gandalf can make a credible reconstruction of the Ring's movements. But this argument is more corroboration than the key part of the proof, I think. Instead of replying by setting out the logic, however, Gandalf tackles the question as Elrond did: by giving an historical and eye-witness account Any thoughts about why Gandalf proceeds in this way?
Would it have been more or less convincing had summarised the logical case instead?

‘At first I feared, as Saruman no doubt intended, that Radagast had also fallen. Yet I had caught no hint of anything wrong in his voice or in his eye at our meeting. If I had, I should never have gone to Isengard, or I should have gone more warily."

Any thoughts about why Gandalf proceeds in this way? Would it have been more or less convincing had summarised the logical case instead? Mirkwood is a reasonable place to begin the tale, but do you also see some level of Gandalf kicking himself for not having figured things out sooner? Is this an odd choice of priorities, actually? If Gandalf is confident that his proof lies in an experiment at Bag End, why not do that first?

Great questions - which I am combining answers to. And I think it plays again into two things: the meld of the books and Gandalf's relationship with Saruman the White. With Gandalf as a common element, his departure from the journey through Mirkwood with the Company is touched upon as the opening of the proofs narrative. Neatly done. As far as the eyewitness aspect, I feel like Gandalf and Aragorn here are two parts of a tale; clearly Aragorn knows what Gandalf knows and they seem to rather work the room to tell the complete tale.
I think at this juncture with Saruman revealed to him, Gandalf now regrets his delays and is also hurt by the loss of Saruman as he should be. In truth, much of his activities seem to indicate those misgivings of his heart that he refers to. It seems that they were more of an attempt to prove to himself that this was NOT the One, and that Saruman was therefore both right and trustworthy. A sideways glimpse into their relationship and its importance to Gandalf, which we see now only at the breaking. I think then it may relate quite a lot to Saruman, and what his betrayal means to Middle-earth and to Gandalf personally.









Is it a surprise, in a fantasy work with a big theme of the heroic rejection of evil, to find a character making a very realpolitik-sounding speech about compromise and regrettable necessities? What do you suppose is Saruman’s real plan and what is being said to try to win over Gandalf? Does Saruman really propose steering Sauron, or does he plan all along to supplant him as soon as practical?

"...frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root; the desire to benefit the world and others - speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans - is a recurrent motive." Wote Tolkien (in a 1951 letter to Milton Friedman, in which Tolkien outlined themes in his Middle-earth writings). Is that the stage Saruman has reached, or is he beyond that and only out to benefit himself?


I would like to think at this point Saruman may be trying to persuade Gandalf that he means to 'steer' Sauron...but his reaction to Gandalf's lack of immediate subservience tells me that his arrogance has indeed passed the point of 'steering' and gone to the despotic (which is just about the worst crime of all to JRRT, I think).








We are used to characters being tempted by the Ring (or denying that temptation) when they have an opportunity to seize it. What of Saruman - he’s come nowhere near it. Is the Ring driving him crazy, or have his researches into Ring-lore been fatal, or is he a tragic character bound to be brought down by his character flaws, with the Ring being just the best option for getting the power he wants?



The Ring to Saruman is only an intellectual reality: thus the temptation does indeed come from within I think. It makes me wonder about the wizard who chose the imposing Tower of Orthanc versus the perhaps humbler one who rejects the trappings of power to roll like a stone to where the need takes him. Gandalf may have been the only one who succeeded among the Istari; but I imagine that Saruman could be argued to have failed the most spectacularly.






Is this setting up Aragorn as the natural choice for the informal second-in-command of the Fellowship? Is it helping Aragorn’s stock in Boromir’s eyes?

Hmm. Not sure hanging with Wizards would do that! I tend to think it would widen the gulf. So perhaps it exists to stress the contrasts and set up the scathing comment from Denethor to Faramir about his eyes following Gandalf too closely: and since father and son are alike in many ways my guess is this is the feeling Boromir will have arrived with.



As I see it, we readers have it confirmed that Gandalf caused the strange flashes that were seen from Weathertop, and of course we were wondering why Gandalf didn’t come to rescue Frodo. Is this just filling in background detail, or am I missing important things?


Its great detail. And I think it gives us a fabulous hint of Gandalf's power without overstating it.







A quibble: As regards why Gandalf can’t join Frodo, Tolkien has him arrive in the Shire super-fast, but then have to kill time getting lost so that he can’t do much. Is this a fossil from older plot-lines, before Gandalf has to journey back from Orthanc? Wouldn’t it be simpler if Shadowfax were a noble steed but slower, and to have Gandalf head direct to Rivendell from Rohan, and perhaps only just arrive before Frodo does?


Hmm. I see your quibble and I am not sure I have an answer for it; some of the time-and-map issues that get raised often evade me - its nor my forte at all. If Gandalf's intent were to accompany Frodo in any part of the trip, or even as it turns out to run interference for the Nine, I guess he has to head for Hobbiton first? But that's probably far too simple an explanation.

He goes off to do his own inscrutable stuff. He might come back in time to get you out of a scrape, or he might not.

Perhaps that works better in The Hobbit - it was intended as a children's book, and Gandalf is like grown-ups are to a child: the local neighbourhood versions of the Trolls or Spiders might have you well strung up by the time Mum or Dad looks up from what they are doing...

That won't wash in LOTR of course, both because it is more pitched at adults, and because safe disposal of The Ring so clearly ought to be Gandalf's top priority. he has to be first captured and then die in order to avoid him chaperoning Frodo too much.

Is the information we get from Gandalf about his reasoning and movements interesting, or could we do without this angle on the events we’ve already seen?
We could; but I guess the infodump leaves us all a bit breathless, so we could use a break.

Would you prefer another round of Bombadillian poetry?

Then he [Shadowfax] must be a noble beast indeed,' said Aragorn; 'and it grieves me more than many tidings that might seem worse to learn that Sauron levies such tribute. It was not so when last I was in that land.'

'Nor is it now, I will swear,' said Boromir. 'It is a lie that comes from the Enemy. I know the Men of Rohan, true and valiant, our allies, dwelling still in the lands that we gave them long ago.'

'The shadow of Mordor lies on distant lands,' answered Aragorn. 'Saruman has fallen under it. Rohan is beset. Who knows what you will find there, if ever you return?'

'Not this at least,' said Boromir, 'that they will buy their lives with horses. ...