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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 11 2015, 3:43pm
Post #1 of 23
(2338 views)
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The End of the Hobbit
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I know that a lot of people have their problems with The Battle of the Five Armies, but does anyone agree with me that from around the moment Thorin gets stabbed to the end of the film is almost perfection? Watching it again today, I think it's just about the most perfect stretch of film in all the Hobbit movies, and one of the best stretches in all six. It's so melancholy. I had been concerned that it would not feel like a conclusion, but just a lead-in to the Lord of the Rings, but barring two scenes that was not the case at all, and the two scenes there still work for The Hobbit despite being set-up (a conclusion for Legolas & Thranduil's arc and then the very end). I guess this is a bit of a rant, just waxing poetic about these ten minutes, but I don't think I quite realized how much I liked it until now. Probably because I was so depressed at the series ending before...
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CathrineB
Rohan
Apr 11 2015, 3:57pm
Post #2 of 23
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I agree that from Bilbo saying goodbye it's good.
I'm unable to "enjoy" the moment they leave from Bilbo mourning Thorin to go to Tauriel mourning Kili because it keeps yelling "What about FILI?!" it just feels so wrong that he doesn't get a moment. It's downright ignoring the character. Don't get me started on certain lines being said between the elves...
But yes...  Bilbo's goodbye to the remaining company, the journey home, the goodbye to Gandalf, the transition from young Bilbo to old... the credits it's all wonderful.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 11 2015, 4:08pm
Post #3 of 23
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The theatrical cut should still have had at least a brief funeral sequence and a scene with Dain as King under the Mountain to give closure to the remaining side-stories.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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CathrineB
Rohan
Apr 11 2015, 4:13pm
Post #4 of 23
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It's unbelievable they actually cut the funeral. I could not believe it. That that wasn't considered important enough to keep 
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 11 2015, 4:17pm
Post #5 of 23
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It is Saruman in The Return of the King all over again.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 11 2015, 4:32pm
Post #6 of 23
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It would have been nice for Fili to get at least an extra shot somewhere in there. It didn't lessen my enjoyment of the ending, but it still would have been nice. But I guess that's what the funeral scene is for (Extended Edition!)
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Arthael
Lorien
Apr 11 2015, 4:37pm
Post #7 of 23
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And it'll only get better with the EE I believe.
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I totally agree that Thorin's stabbing through the end of the film is one of the best stretches of the whole trilogy (I could've done without "because it was real" and "his true name, you must discover for yourself", but I can deal with it.)
Gandalf cleaning his pipe was fantastic, although I really wish he would've started smoking it. The farewell, the journey home, the comedy of the auction, and the poignancy of "he was my friend" were all beyond excellent. Makes me yearn for a trilogy that cut out a few minutes of Loony Toons action and left more space for quiet character moments! Cause Jackson really can do them well
"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 11 2015, 4:39pm
Post #8 of 23
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I think I can almost understand why they'd cut it
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Not saying I agree with it at all, but I can sort of see them thinking that it would be one sad scene too many and one farewell scene to many. You figure we have Bilbo saying goodbye to Thorin, the Dwarves saying goodbye to Thorin, and Bilbo saying goodbye to everyone else. It does kind of flow.
BUT it still should be a great scene, and I would really like to see it. I hope it shows the Arkenstone being placed on Thorin's body. That's the only bit of closure I think needs to be there, given that they made Dain such a minor character, though awesome.
Evidently, I have a different opinion on that topic than most other people.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 11 2015, 4:49pm
Post #9 of 23
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Even though I think the movie works without it, it would be cool to slow the pace a bit and show things like the funeral and the two coronations. The walk home with Thranduil and Beorn and the stop at Rivendell would be amazing also, but I there's about a 4% chance of those being in there.
I love these movies even with the Looney Tunes action, but I really do love the quiet character moments the most, and wish there were more of them in BOTFA. The moment I knew I loved AUJ was the Bilbo-Bofur scene, and with DOS it was the Feast of Starlight scene. With the exception of the acorn scene and the ending, there aren't as many in the finale.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 11 2015, 4:52pm
Post #10 of 23
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I think that those scenes were the victims of the relatively tight editing that Peter Jackson was forced to do in order to achieve the desired theatrical runtime for TH:BotFA. Still, I can probably identify existing scenes that I would have preferred to see shortened or cut to make way for these missing ones.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 11 2015, 5:14pm
Post #11 of 23
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I gotta say, I wonder whether the 144-minute runtime was actually something they imposed on themselves or more about studio interference. The movie is right on the edge of being too fast paced. The weird thing being that Peter Jackson always seemed to ignore the studio pressure with New Line, and we know he has ridiculous amounts of creative freedom during shooting. Mind you, it wouldn't be the first time a creative team was allowed to do what they wanted during pre-production and shooting, and then the studio took over during editing (aka The Golden Compass). But I guess that's kind of off topic. It didn't affect the ending, for me at least!
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 11 2015, 5:58pm
Post #12 of 23
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From memory I agree with you...
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It's a long time now since I've seen it and the DVD isn't available here yet, but I remember how powerful and beautiful it seemed to me. Before I saw it I wondered if we would get to see Bilbo's journey home, because the film was so much shorter than the others. I was delighted they gave so much time to it.
'Course, that's not to say I don't want more, and lots of it. I've no idea why they had to cut it so tightly. But as it stands I still love the film and share your view of the ending.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Apr 11 2015, 9:00pm
Post #13 of 23
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I think that those scenes were the victims of the relatively tight editing that Peter Jackson was forced to do in order to achieve the desired theatrical runtime for TH:BotFA. Still, I can probably identify existing scenes that I would have preferred to see shortened or cut to make way for these missing ones.
tight editing? this was basically a 9 hour film and he still couldnt find a way to finish a story line? its very bad filmaking IMO
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Noria
Gondor
Apr 12 2015, 1:15pm
Post #14 of 23
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I agree that the ending is great.
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IMO the conclusions of Bilbo's own story and his journey with Thorin work well and are very moving, beautiful and funny. I love all those scenes: Thorin's death, Bilbo and Gandalf, the mourning Dwarves, Bilbo's goodbye and his journey home to Bag End.
I don't mind the Tauriel/Kili/Thranduil and Legolas/Thranduil scenes even though the dialogue is more than a little lame. EL sells it for me; her acting and that of AT makes the whole romance thing mostly work for me.
I think that the story of the King Under the Mountain gets short shrift and not enough closure. It just about works in the TE but needs the funeral/coronation to show us that the kingdom is reestablished and peace made between the Dwarves, Men and Elven (we hope), that Thorin, Fili and Kili did not die for nothing.
Why are the people of Dale playing that great fanfare - the Erebor theme - and looking out over the walls at nothing? I know that in the TE it's to show that Bard his family and a whole bunch of Laketowners survived and give that story an end, but it too is not really adequate.
For the first time I am hoping that the EE does more than give us fun additional scenes and characters moments. I am hoping that it concludes the stories more completely.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 12 2015, 2:11pm
Post #15 of 23
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It might drag on a bit in the EE...
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I heard people moaning in the cinema like "here we go again" when the final scenes started. I think their moans, anticipating a million endings (like RotK), were proven to be misplaced because the pacing turned out to be great in the end - and I'm sure they'd agree.
But for the EE there's the potential of another RotK ending, where it just seems to go on forever. I think that's why we got such a great theatrical ending, because PJ was intentionally avoiding a RotK scenario by cutting the extra stuff out. With the EE, there are a lot of loose ends to tie up and it may result in a slower, more dragging (but more resolved) end.
We'll have to wait and see which is preferable, it's possible that the pacing is unharmed and the EE is better. But if that's the case it raises the question of why PJ cut it in the first place. I think, more likely, the EE will explain and resolve a lot but at the expense of the theatrical version's perfect pace.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Apr 12 2015, 2:12pm)
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Apr 12 2015, 6:33pm
Post #16 of 23
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Bilbo's goodbye to the dwarves
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Another thread: The ending of BOFA
I had some random thoughts regarding the ending scenes and this thread seems like a place for them.
This is from the full movie transcript:
[Balin:] “There is to be a great feast tonight. Songs will be song, tales will be told and Thorin Oakenshield will pass into legend.”
[Bilbo:] “I know that’s how you must honor him, but to me he was never that - he was...to me...he was…”
[Bilbo is unable to find the words, and Balin smiles fondly at him.]
This is a small thing, but since the first viewing of BO5A it has confused me that Bilbo struggles with the definition. At that point all of us - and Balin - likely knew what he was thinking. It was only after having travelled back home and broken off the auction that Bilbo could say Thorin had been his friend. To me, in a similar circumstance, the hard part would not be the word "friend" but the move to past tense - being forced to say "he was" instead of "he is." 
The possibility occurred to me that maybe Bilbo had only had a few true friends in his life, being polite and pleasant in his relations with fellow hobbits but rarely forming a deeper friendships with anyone. Then - perhaps even only realizing belatedly at that moment that his relationship with Thorin had maybe been the most meaningful friendship in his life so far - it became too much for him and he couldn't say aloud what he had lost...?
I just happened by this, so someone else has wondered the same.
Another random thought, continuing with the same scene from the transcript:
[Bilbo:] “If any of you ever passing Bag End, tea is at four - there’s plenty of it. You are welcome anytime.”
[The dwarves bow to him, and he smiles. He begins to turn away, then turns back.]
[Bilbo:] “Eh, don’t bother knocking.”
[The dwarves chuckle, some of them wiping away tears. Bilbo, after waving goodbye, walks toward Gandalf, who is waiting with his horse and a pony for Bilbo.]
Somewhere on the Internet I saw a GIF made out of this - I can't recall it exactly, but it was the same scene with Bilbo smiling to Balin, and it was commented along the lines of "Nice, Bilbo, cracking jokes right after Thorin has died  " - probably referring to the line that has dwarves chuckling. (Or maybe the comment about joke meant Bilbo's "I'm not a hero" line, I don't know, I don't have the film yet.) I don't get that at all. Bilbo is not joking, just trying to smooth over their shared hurt and pain by bringing something ordinary, everyday-living into the bittersweet goodbyes. And even if there's a smile on his face, it never reaches his eyes. If there was a joke somewhere, I must have completely missed it.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 12 2015, 6:42pm
Post #17 of 23
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I'm certain there was no joke there....
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...not in any inappropriate sense. Seems to me that comment of Bilbo's is very much the same as Gandalf fiddling with his pipe - something comforting and ordinary to hold onto at a moment when all of them are feeling the same pain.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 12 2015, 8:13pm
Post #18 of 23
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When I first saw it in theater, I thought that the horn-blowing was marking the end of the battle showing that Bard and the others survived. I think it worked well enough. Now, of course it's pretty obvious that they are mourning Thorin. But I think it worked okay for the theatrical version.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 12 2015, 8:16pm
Post #19 of 23
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I think we should wait to see which version we prefer. I was worried that the ending would be too fast because of the RotK complaints, but was happy with how it was. It's obvious he took those into consideration, but it wasn't detrimental to the film. Here's to hoping the Extended Edition doesn't drag.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 12 2015, 8:19pm
Post #20 of 23
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I agree that that line was in no way a joke. In fact, when I watch it it's the line "don't bother knocking" that almost pushes me into tears. I think it's a great farewell scene. It's one of my favorite moments in the "Falling Action" section of the film. I also really like your analysis of his stammering.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 12 2015, 8:37pm
Post #21 of 23
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It's one of those smiling-with-tears-in-my-eyes moments for me.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Apr 12 2015, 9:34pm
Post #22 of 23
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I know people handle grief differently but soooo many people get really touchy about anything remotely lighthearted after Thorin's death and seem to miss the point of certain moments.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Apr 12 2015, 9:34pm)
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Cillendor
Lorien
Apr 14 2015, 10:40pm
Post #23 of 23
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I was so frustrated with how Peter Jackson treated this movie that it turned me off to anything Tolkien for several months. But the scene from Bilbo leaving Erebor until the end was perfect.
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