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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 9 2015, 7:54pm
Post #1 of 26
(3378 views)
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Fili not forgotten
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So I've been working on my first fanvideo ever, and have spent quite a bit of time watching BOT5A and being on the lookout for Fili clips, trying to give him equal time with Kili and Thorin. What I've discovered is, maybe Fili isn't as forgotten in this movie as originally thought. We all know that he leads the "Laketown 4" into Erebor, and that Thorin singles him out by throwing a jewel at him. But if you'll watch closely you'll notice Fili is looking around Bilbo's shoulder, not once but twice, while Bilbo is warning them about Thorin. Shortly after that Fili runs right up to the camera before going into the gold room. And again, the camera singles Fili out of the Laketown 4 in that scene where they're all lined up and gawking at the gold and Thorin.
But wait, there's more! In the scene where Thorin talks to Bard, he walks past Fili and says "come on." The camera lingers on our favorite fair-haired Durin for a moment, then he grabs his sword and follows. He's also clearly visible in the scene where Bilbo confronts Thorin after Bard leaves, looking very worried. And then later when Thorin orders the dwarves to "throw him from the ramparts," the first dwarf he looks to is Fili. Kili is there in the scene, but the camera is focused on his brother for a change. Then after Thorin comes around and leads the charge, we have Fili's totally badass roll off the battleram & attack an orc twice his size, YEAH!!! (Followed by that other awful scene, which WON'T be in my fanvideo )
So let's hear it for the boy!
BTW, someone wanted a GIF of that Fili battleroll, well I don't know how to make a GIF but I've got the clip. PM me if you're interested.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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He is a wizard, you know!
The Shire
Apr 9 2015, 8:13pm
Post #2 of 26
(3262 views)
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I'm still trying to figure out....
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.....this obsession with Fili! Why are there no threads on here about the lack of other dwarves in the third movie? Why all this Fili favoritism?
"You're a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I'm very fond of you, but you're only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all."
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Apr 9 2015, 8:28pm
Post #3 of 26
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Because out of all the dwarves that were sidelined, he's the one that should have had the most screentime. He was Thorin's heir and had a tragic death that audiences should have been more affected by than I think they ended up being. All of the dwarves should have had much more development than they got, especially in BotFA. But Fili being ignored is the most confusing and frustrating in terms of basic storytelling.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 9 2015, 8:29pm
Post #4 of 26
(3245 views)
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"The human heart can see what is hidden to the eyes, and the heart knows things that the mind does not begin to understand."
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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Fimbulfambi
The Shire
Apr 9 2015, 8:33pm
Post #5 of 26
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I think it might have something to do with the fact that Fili is the heir and is actually quite imporant to the throne. Thorin puts a great deal of hope and duty into Fili.
Since Fili actually dies I think that a lot of watchers would have liked to actually feel more when that happened. As it is, we have not gotten that much emotional or intimate connection to him due to the balancing of screen time, dialouge and character moments.
That's the deal for me anyway. While the threadstarter here points out that we can see Fili do a lot, he is in the screen for some time - however, this is probably not "quality" screen time such as I mentioned above.
Of course the other dwarves deserves some recognition and screen time, but in the context of what happens to FIli, something more would have been needed in order for it to make more of an impact.
Going through the History of Middle Earth – Chapter by Chapter
Tolkien Read Through
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CathrineB
Rohan
Apr 9 2015, 8:36pm
Post #6 of 26
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I adore Fili *cough avatar cough* but it's fishing for Fili moments. Them coming to Erebor focuses a lot on Fili i'll grant you that, but besides that one only his death focuses on him while the rest is just passing seconds. He's still sidelined brutally seeing as who he is and his role in the story as well as compared to, let's say Kili (who frankly also was butchered for the lovestory as he doesn't do much more either considering what happens to him too).
Okay I'm being pessimistic I am so sorry!  I am all for a love Fili post afterall.
As for the post about why people seem to obsess about Fili? It was already answered perfectly well. It should be a given you focus on characters that are going to die so you feel something for them when they actually die, but for some reason they didn't bother with Fili. Fans might care, but the casual movie goer? Not so much.
Just because I love Fili though doesn't mean I don't want more focus on the other dwarves too though. That's what BotfA lacked so hilariously. How much the damn Company we have followed FOR TWO MOVIES were forgotten in favor for damned elves, love stories and unibrows.
(This post was edited by CathrineB on Apr 9 2015, 8:38pm)
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Apr 9 2015, 8:52pm
Post #7 of 26
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You must give us a link, please!
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Anyway, it's a pity (or a shame, it depends on my mood) that you have to look at the background to see how the personal journeys of the Dwarves go on. And that this includes also the heir to the throne (All I have done, I have done it for them, oh well this was taken out of the TE ) is a little odd.
Stories which are great canvases include characters that the readers/public slowly come to appreciate, or unexpectedly fall in love with.
This is what happened with Fili, probably to PJ's surprise. If he has ever come to realize it
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Apr 9 2015, 9:12pm
Post #8 of 26
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I love the other dwarves, but Fili is my favorite. He's a lot of people's favorite. I don't think there's any reason to dislike him, either. While all of the dwarves are courageous, he presents himself as especially loyal and brave.
For reasons others have already said, he should have been featured more prominently in the story.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 9 2015, 9:23pm
Post #9 of 26
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Here's one I made, way back in July, when I was none too happy with the lack of dwarf presence at SDCC:
http://newboards.theonering.net/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
I think I made another dwarf retrospective like this, closer to BOFA - at least for me, it goes without saying I am most unhappy re the lack of dwarf presence - except for my beloved Thorin (and even then it was kinda sad RA wasn't at SDCC). Even re Thorin - as RA said "you get your character from others" and I know he and the other actors ALL worked together and bonded - never, never, never in my imagination did I picture things working out the they did . Don't wanna get too negative but it is painful to see the work of Ken Stott and Graham McTavish in this film, or even watch the dwarves flawlessly reacting - thinking about the interactions that MIGHT have been.
Yeah, I could post a thread that would be pretty unhappy - actually re-watching DOS and AUJ is kinda hard for me, because then you get to the *dwarfless* (more or less) BOFA and it reminds me of marathon night when I first saw BOFA and couldn't even pull my thoughts together about what I had just seen. Because I love this tumbling group of hairy guys - ALL of them.
.....this obsession with Fili!
Speaking for myself - I was SO looking forward to the imagined reunion with Thorin and Fili and Kili (not), an envisioned clash of some kind between Fili and Thorin re the Empire article that makes mention of the "increasingly disillusioned Fili" (not), some kind of affectionate moment with Fili and Thorin and/or Kili (not), and of course some badass, multiple blade awesomeness from Fili (not).
I suppose the shortest answer is 1) Fili is Thorin's heir and re DOS it seemed (to me) a kind of set-up for a pivotal role of sorts for Fili; 2) It was always Kili AND Fili; 3) The PR even for BOFA seems to indicate that Fili is a lead character, more or less; 4) We love Kili AND Fili. Fili is handsome, awesome, badass, charming, a believable and worthy prince of dwarves whose fun but more reserved personality is a wonderful contrast to Kili.
Re the dwarves, some had had more speaking and "lead" type roles; some less - but I personally couldn't have imagined after the other movies and the PR that things would take the direction they did - including canon, for that matter (Kili AND Fili fall defending Thorin in the book).
It's like having a tooth taken out and you keep poking at where the tooth used to be, or a TV series where suddenly a regular character is vanished with no explanation at all. And for sure, we haven't heard any explanation of WHY the THORIN'S HEIR and a BELOVED BROTHER AND NEPHEW who shows up prominently in a lot of PR wasn't the one who got to yell at Thorin, or have his own big fight scene, and so on.
Never mind the rest the dwarves. I was really looking forward to seeing the knife-wielding Nori go to town on some orcs.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 9 2015, 9:42pm
Post #10 of 26
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That's what BotfA lacked so hilariously. How much the damn Company we have followed FOR TWO MOVIES were forgotten in favor for damned elves, love stories and unibrows.
Someone needs to send PJ & co. a postcard or something with this on it (and I'd add - some more Beorn would be nice too. Especially w. the concept art showing what might have been )
*Grimly* And while it's nice the BR/DVD is selling well, I imagine that that may impact sales for the EE - e.g., for the "average" viewer, as it just wasn't Hobbit/ME fans at these films, are they likely to care about additional footage after they have already added a film to their collection? So even if the EE is packed with dwarf-time, many will never see it..
Tho I guess these days, we are lucky to get an EE at all. PJ has alluded to the EE having stories that needed to be told, but for me, hearing or seeing one more thing about Tauriel or Alfrid would NOT be considered a selling point, after the dwarflessness. Neither is the thought of this funeral, which may well be not even real actors considering it's probably cheaper to use dummies like that of Gandalf. (Tho for me, it's not something I would ever watch much of, and would much prefer seeing "each and every dwarf getting their moment in battle" as was said in articles before BOFA.)
OK, I'm being pessimistic too - hafta remember that PJ did see the FINISHED film for the first time in London at the premier, he was often looking exhausted, l loved the DOS EE, and who knows what PJ might have thought in viewing the film, and what he wants to add/edit, etc. Maybe I will get my battle goats at least.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Apr 9 2015, 10:37pm
Post #11 of 26
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Now that the HQ screencaps are up I found more background Fili to enjoy!
Like Fili listening to Thorin and Kili's conversation at the gates.
I'm in love with the costume of his in BotfA.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 9 2015, 11:46pm
Post #12 of 26
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 9 2015, 11:49pm
Post #13 of 26
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I love Fili and Thorin here - Fili's DEFINITELY got the #Majesty. King and PRINCE.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 10 2015, 2:39am
Post #14 of 26
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TPTB will probably delete it as soon as it's posted. Still, I'll announce it when it's posted on YouTube, and hopefully it won't be too hard to find.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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shadowdog
Rohan
Apr 10 2015, 5:00pm
Post #15 of 26
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However, they all had more development and "story time" than they did in the book. There was only so much Jackson could do without muddling up the film with a lot of extra storyline that would have been criticized as "fanfiction".
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Kelly of Water's Edge
Rohan
Apr 10 2015, 7:16pm
Post #16 of 26
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is that Tauriel and Legolas were made primary characters. Tauriel is partially cannon (in that there was indeed an Elven Captain of the Guard who was a minor character), and it would have been reasonable for Legolas to have been in Mirkwood at the time - but use up major time with them instead of the Dwarves and some others like Beorn and that's where cannon fans are going to start complaining.
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marary
Lorien
Apr 10 2015, 7:23pm
Post #17 of 26
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These movies have a precedent of canon/relationship extrapolation
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The book gives you two nephews of Thorin, one of who is older and the heir (in the book, Fili is actually younger, but whatev). They already expanded on this quite a bit for the first two movies by extrapolating on what sort of dynamic this might create with the brothers and their uncle, and with the older one obviously having more responsibility and grooming. Rather well done in the first two films, IMO.
Is it that much of a leap to extrapolate further on how the oldest heir might deal with his looming responsibilities as the uncle he admires goes nuts? It's no more muddling with canon than what's already been done for the character (and many other story elements), and no more than what they've done with other elements of the story.
And the younger dwarves dissatisfaction with Thorin's decision making in the last third of the book is straight from canon. Totally fair to expand this into the more complex family relationships they've developed in the film.
(This post was edited by marary on Apr 10 2015, 7:24pm)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Apr 10 2015, 7:38pm
Post #18 of 26
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There was no real good reason why Legolas and Tauriel needed to be in the third movie at all, and certainly not to take up as much screen time as they did, when characters like Beorn are barely even seen.
"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 10 2015, 7:40pm
Post #19 of 26
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It may not be the most popular opinion, but I think the dwarves had plenty of screen time (yes, even Fili -- although I too would have like to have seen at least one quick scene featuring him postmortem). It is only in comparison to the screen time of Kili (when speaking of Fili), Legolas, Tauriel and Alfrid that it seems to appear lacking. I can't say the first three instances bother me, but I'd be willing to cut down all of their screen time if I'd have to. But not to replace it with more dwarf-footage (at least not to the full extent of the screen time the aforementioned characters take up) -- I feel that it's nicely in proportion with the screen time of Bilbo, the main character (which, in my opinion, should be the yardstick here), as it is.
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 10 2015, 7:53pm)
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Apr 10 2015, 7:59pm
Post #20 of 26
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Having more Dwarves just for "Dwarves' sake"
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is not relevant of course.
What is relevant is that the writers did not trust the Dwarves' potential and they did not dare expand some of their story lines but they had more trust in Elves, and a human comic relief.
I wasn't too impressed with either, unfortunately.
And my love for Dwarves has grown in its stead.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 10 2015, 8:32pm
Post #21 of 26
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If I "take to" or become interested in a series of films after being presented with a certain group of characters, AND those characters are presented in a certain way with a certain amount of screen time, AND I have enough fandom to go reading additional articles and books and viewing videos and featurettes that tout the "importance of elevating dwarf culture" and "fleshing out the dwarf characters where Tolkien did not" and I see the care with which the casting was done for the dwarves, and I decide I love that idea, and these are the characters I take to, and feel it's fresh and different to focus on dwarves and a halfling -
then as a fan/movie-goer I'm not gonna be too thrilled when I've been looking forward to the expected interactions between these characters and find my *reasonable expectations* IMO rather abruptly torpedoed, apparently re the filmmakers' decisions that having focus on other characters introduced mid-stream in the series are more important.
And worse, IMO, the dynamics and emotional engagements of the mid-stream introduced characters are not compelling for me (Bolg/Legolas, Tauriel/Thranduil, Legolas' mother...)
It's difficult to argue with the approach as BOFA is a financial success, but still, it's also difficult to accept that in order to finish "the series" I also have to sit through some sort of secondary film stuffed into the main film - or at least that's what it felt like.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 10 2015, 8:41pm
Post #22 of 26
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I suspect that's one of the reason why AUJ is my favourite film of the three -- it has less "distractions".
This is one of these instances where I wish the filmmakers would have followed the motto "less is more".
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 10 2015, 8:49pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 10 2015, 8:53pm
Post #23 of 26
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Nicely said IMO
What is relevant is that the writers did not trust the Dwarves' potential and they did not dare expand some of their story lines but they had more trust in Elves, and a human comic relief.
And with the QUALITY of actors, too. Heck, I must have seen DOS 20 times in theaters, and Bombur was a highlight, every time. And it's not like the Internet didn't resonate with the family dynamics alone of Thorin, Fili, Kili....
Either not trusting the dwarves' potential, or not caring, re feeling it was more important to come up with something that would "appeal to young girls 5 years from now". If these changes/additions did. If in five years these "young girls" aren't watching the latest Star Wars sequel or something.
But I have trouble assimilating a thought like that, as a currently PAYING customer. Don't those customers count? What about the adults who are far more likely to watch, and re-watch?
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 10 2015, 9:10pm
Post #24 of 26
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Either not trusting the dwarves' potential, or not caring, re feeling it was more important to come up with something that would "appeal to young girls 5 years from now". If these changes/additions did. If in five years these "young girls" aren't watching the latest Star Wars sequel or something.
But I have trouble assimilating a thought like that, as a currently PAYING customer. Don't those customers count? What about the adults who are far more likely to watch, and re-watch? ... it's about trying to offer something to as many (potential) viewers as possible. But, as it often happens when one tries to please everyone, they ended up pleasing no one (forgive me the hyperbole).
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Apr 11 2015, 1:12am
Post #25 of 26
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They definitely did have more development than in the books, but you'd think they'd have much more considering they stretched the book into three movies. And I think PJ already did more than enough "fanfiction muddling" to upset people in other areas.
But for me personally, I don't mind having stuff that's not in the books. I just wish they would have spent their time more wisely and made sure the focus didn't shift away from the dwarves (not including Thorin and Kili's love story) as much as it did about halfway through the trilogy. I don't think making a few dwarves more than named extras would have really taken much time anyway, and I don't think people would really be complaining about it either.
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Bwwwwwwaaaahhhh!
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Not just canon fans
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