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**Fellowship of the Ring Discussion - Council of Elrond - Thread 2 of 4: “Who are you and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?” Aragorn and Boromir. **

noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 8 2015, 10:04am

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**Fellowship of the Ring Discussion - Council of Elrond - Thread 2 of 4: “Who are you and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?” Aragorn and Boromir. ** Can't Post

Welcome to the second thread of discussion of the FOTR chapter Council of Elrond. In the last thread (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=848058#848058 )we got to the end of Boromir’s speech: he has interrupted other business to praise Gondor and then recount his mission to understand a riddle in a prophetic dream. The answer is about to surprise him.

By page, this thread covers from “And here in the House of Elrond more shall be made clear to you.” That is, when Aragorn stands up and casts a broken sword onto the table in answer to Boromir’s “Seek for the Sword that was broken” to the start of Bilbo’s account of the finding of the Ring (with a peek ahead to the final Aragorn-Boromir exchange).

In summary, this thread is about Boromir and Aragorn’s interaction in this meeting. Boromir is probably the delegate who knows least about what is going on. He’s only arrived that morning, and given his reluctance to enter Lorien later, being in Rivendell might not be a comfortable experience for him. Ontop of that, he has come to ask for an explanation of a riddle - when the meeting started he had no idea that he was about to get mixed up in the business of the One Ring, and he had even less idea than us readers of who Aragorn is. And yet (or perhaps because he is overcompensating) we’ve already seen that Boromir is the most likely person to interrupt (more so even that Frodo or Bilbo!)

As we’ve been discussing the early part of this chapter, I’ve been thinking about the writerly purpose of giving us Elrond’s long Tale of the Ring. We readers, of course, have already got the gist of that from Gandalf in Book 1 Ch 2 (Shadow of the Past). I’m thinking that one reason Tolkien does it is to allow Boromir to show his ignorance of these matters to increase the impact of this upcoming section. What do you think?

In the post following this one, I have a more detailed description of this part of the chapter, and several discussion prompts. These mostly boil down to two themes:

I think Boromir is written very skillfully in this chapter. His words and actions both reveal a lot of his character, as well as making him a useful reader surrogate (to ask the questions that are probably troubling a thoughtful reader). Do you agree, or disagree? How do you react to Boromir as you read?

Aragorn seems to believe that Boromir’s dream is a message for him, summoning him to Minas Tirith and the crown. Boromir is surprised by events - how does Aragorn try to win him over, and what do their exchanges tell us about the two men?


Feel free to stop reading and start discussing here if you like!

What follows in the next post is a summary of the events of this section of the chapter, and some comments and questions. Please read (or not read) and use (or not use) as you see fit! I’ll end *this* post with a reminder of how I plan to cover the rest of the chapter.

To recap, I propose to start 2 more threads next week

Start of next week: The adventures mostly of Gandalf: researching the Ring, capturing Gollum, and being captured by Saruman - by page this runs from “To some Bilbo’s tale was wholly new” to “But we have not yet come any nearer to our purpose, What shall we do with [the Ring].” Thematically - about the Ring and it’s corruption.

Later next week - What shall we do with [the Ring]? By page, from “But we have not yet come any nearer to our purpose, What shall we do with [the Ring].” to the end of the chapter. Thematically - about the council’s decisions. Also, I’m looking forward to discussing what all this might mean about fate, divine or supernatural intervention and free will in Middle-earth. (We've already begun to touch on how much of an option Frodo has really not to take the Ring, and to what extent the meeting is a fix-up, with Gandalf and Elrond having decided in advance exactly what they want to happen. But people have kindly held off on those subjects, awaiting Thread 4/4) .
The last thread is also the obvious point to pick up Any Other Business (this is a committee meeting chapter, after all!)

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 8 2015, 10:07am

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“Who are you and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?” Aragorn and Boromir: detail and discussion points. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a summary of the events of this section of the chapter, and some comments and questions. Please read (or not read) and use (or not use) as you see fit!

“And here in the house of Elrond more shall be made clear to you.”

Aragorn stands up, and reveals the Sword That Was Broken. Boromir wants to know who this scruffy ranger person is, and Elrond tells him (and us readers) that Aragorn is a direct descendant and heir of Isildur, leader of the Dunedain in the North.
Is the scruffy work outfit a misjudgement by Aragorn, or does it indicate that he expected a more modest role in the meeting and was not expecting what Boromir has had to say? Would yesterday evening’s elven-mail and star have been a better costume in which to appear to the proud, martial Boromir and claim to be the long-lost heir to Isildur (and therefore Boromir’s rightful King)? Did Aragorn know, I wonder, what Boromir’s mission was before Boromir just described it, or was there no time for Elrond to tip him off?

(I must remember here to refer back to a wonderful TAS essay about the clothes the participants wear and what this might mean: "What the Well-Dressed Hobbit Is Wearing" by Ethelwynn http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=737603#737603 )

The first reaction to Strider being revealed as isildur’s heir comes from Frodo: “ ‘Then it [the Ring] belongs to you, and not to me at all!’ cried Frodo in amazement, springing to his feet as if he expected the Ring to be demanded at once.”

Aragorn specifically rejects the idea that he is the owner of the Ring and says it has been “ordained” that Frodo should hold it for a while.
Was Frodo really ready to give up the Ring, had Aragorn claimed it? Or would he quickly find himself trying to retain it? What (if anything) should we make of Aragorn’s rejection of ownership - note he doesn’t say that he doesn't dare to take it (though that would probably be a wise reaction), but that it has been “ordained” to be someone else’s job?

Frodo reluctantly brings out the Ring - he does not want to show it (or it does not want to be shown, perhaps). Frodo feels shame and fear, and a loathing of the Ring’s touch.
Is there a similarity to Frodo’s reluctance to hand the Ring to Gandalf exactly 1 “Book” ago (Book 1 Chapter 2: The Shadow of the Past)? Why shame, fear and loathing this time as opposed to reluctance then?

“Behold Isildur’s Bane!” (says Elrond, though technically speaking the meeting is still trying to establish that this is what the Ring is Wink).

Boromir struggles to keep up with these revelations- does this mean that the doom of Minas Tirith has come?

Aragorn reminds Boromir of the multiple meanings of “doom” - he says “doom and great deeds are indeed at hand”. (The usual meaning of doom in modern English is something like ‘an unpleasant fate’ but it can also mean ‘judgement’).

“Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?” Aragorn asks Boromir.

Boromir is not sure, and among his doubts appears to be whether this scruffy ranger chap could actually be of the House of Elendil. This annoys Bilbo, who interrupts to recite his “All that is gold does not glitter” verse.
What motives do you see in Boromir’s skeptical reaction? He immediately says that he was “not sent to beg any boon” - is this pride only, or should we make allowances for a delegate who has been thrown an unexpected situation well outside any mandate he might have been dispatched with?

Aragorn smoothly defuses the escalating tension. Far from being insulted, he says he can fully understand how Boromir does not think he looks like a king. This turns to a description of some of his own achievements, and those of his people.
Is there maybe a little bitterness in Aragorn’s description of how thankless the rangers’ lot has been? If so, is he answering Boromir in kind (“Well, you think YOU have it bad being the only formal army in the field? How do you think WE feel...” etc.) Or is he making common cause with Boromir here - claiming the common predicament of being the under-thanked defenders of the peace?

Aragorn ends by announcing “I will come to Minas Tirith.”
My reading is - having not received an immediate acknowledgement of his claim and an invitation from Boromir, Aragorn announces that he will travel to Minas Tirith. This avoids any worries Boromir need have about his mandate - Aragorn can present himself and his claim to Gondor’s proper authorities. He now awaits Boromir’s reaction.

Boromir reaction is to seek more evidence that the ring he has just seen is indeed Isildur’s Bane, the One Ring.

I’d now like to abandon the page-by-page summary for a moment so that we can complete the Aragorn-Boromir theme. The evidence Boromir asks for is offered in the form of an account of the finding of the Ring by Bilbo, and then by Frodo of his journey to Rivendell with it. This then leads to Gandalf’s account of his research to identify what Bilbo’s Ring might be. Gandalf’s tale becomes a neat double-act with Aragorn smoothly taking over the story of the adventures necessary to capture Gollum (and thereby shows he has done deeds to match Boromir’s quest to Imladris). Then Gandalf describes the treachery of Saruman. Finally there is a discussion of what to do with the Ring. Only after Boromir has suggested using the Ring as a weapon and then apparently retracted that proposal does he interact with Aragorn again. That’s 20 pages later, in my edition. Then this:


Quote
[Boromir]: ‘...And at the least, while the Wise ones guard this Ring, we will fight on. Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide - if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of Kings of Men.’
‘Who can tell?’ said Aragorn. ‘But we will put it to the test one day.’
‘May that day not be too long delayed,’ said Boromir. ‘For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. ‘


How do you read this final Aragorn-Boromir exchange? Is Boromir being rude and hostile, or is he merely keeping his options open? Does he now accept Aragorn’s claim, and is now only looking for proof of the fitness of the claimant? (Is this why Aragorn is relaxed in reply - because he’s confident about his “sinews”?) Is it significant that Boromir makes his most direct appeal for aid in the chapter only at this point? To what extent is this appeal now an appeal to Aragorn personally? Any other thoughts on Boromir and Aragorn, as they are revealed in this chapter?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 3:04am

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A tale of two Men [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I think Boromir is written very skillfully in this chapter. His words and actions both reveal a lot of his character, as well as making him a useful reader surrogate (to ask the questions that are probably troubling a thoughtful reader). Do you agree, or disagree? How do you react to Boromir as you read?

Aragorn seems to believe that Boromir’s dream is a message for him, summoning him to Minas Tirith and the crown. Boromir is surprised by events - how does Aragorn try to win him over, and what do their exchanges tell us about the two men?



That in itself - that Aragorn sees the dream as a summons to him - tells a lot about the dynamic and the potential troubles they will have right off the bat. No one does criticize Boromir for travelling over a hundred days on the strength of a dream; not here in Rivendell. Aragorn is Elf-raised and also wiht a sense of his own destiny: thus the immediate leap that the dream is a summons is reasonable to him. I would say it is NOT reasonable to Boromir.

Aragorn offers himself as an ally - but Boromir had Doubts. Raised in another world, more like the world of Men today, I think he looks for signs of strength in numbers and equipment. This Elvish prophecy stuff is simply no way to do business.

Plus I like the way that Boromir's mind interprets the riddle as 'the doom of Minas Tirith'. A mark of the investment he has in it, as the whole and center of his universe. And I am sure here, among strangers, he feels that weight acutely. Especially in the midst of people that to him must be seen to be speaking of madness - throwing away the only way to save his kingdom, as he sees it.








(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 9 2015, 3:04am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 3:24am

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A Tale of Two Men, part II [In reply to] Can't Post


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Is the scruffy work outfit a misjudgement by Aragorn, or does it indicate that he expected a more modest role in the meeting and was not expecting what Boromir has had to say? Would yesterday evening’s elven-mail and star have been a better costume in which to appear to the proud, martial Boromir and claim to be the long-lost heir to Isildur (and therefore Boromir’s rightful King)? Did Aragorn know, I wonder, what Boromir’s mission was before Boromir just described it, or was there no time for Elrond to tip him off?

I like the use of the Ranger garb here as a contrast to Boromir as they set out from Rivendell, and he unwisely (but needful to him, and his honor) blows his horn. That sense of staying in the shadows until need is upon one to do more - that Aragorn has learned through silently guarding the North, as well as serving as Thorongil in the south. Boromir has been raised in the sunlight of power, as it were: the light beats down upon the Steward's Heirs. Not so the higher Heir: he has lived, by necessity, in shadow. I feel that Aragorn would not appear as any other than himself, at that point.


(I must remember here to refer back to a wonderful TAS essay about the clothes the participants wear and what this might mean: "What the Well-Dressed Hobbit Is Wearing" by Ethelwynn http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=737603#737603 ) Yes, nicely done!Cool


Aragorn specifically rejects the idea that he is the owner of the Ring and says it has been “ordained” that Frodo should hold it for a while.

Was Frodo really ready to give up the Ring, had Aragorn claimed it? Or would he quickly find himself trying to retain it? What (if anything) should we make of Aragorn’s rejection of ownership - note he doesn’t say that he doesn't dare to take it (though that would probably be a wise reaction), but that it has been “ordained” to be someone else’s job?

I think it harkens back to the failure of Isildur and his acknowledgement of it; having been raised in the house of Elrond, that story will only be told with one angle. I think this reflects the amount of Firstborn sensibilities that Aragorn has both been exposed to and accepted.




Is there a similarity to Frodo’s reluctance to hand the Ring to Gandalf exactly 1 “Book” ago (Book 1 Chapter 2: The Shadow of the Past)? Why shame, fear and loathing this time as opposed to reluctance then?

Exactly. Feeling attached to it already, and therin lies the shame?




What motives do you see in Boromir’s skeptical reaction? He immediately says that he was “not sent to beg any boon” - is this pride only, or should we make allowances for a delegate who has been thrown an unexpected situation well outside any mandate he might have been dispatched with?

And a situation which will change his family's life forever. I'm surprised he was that calm.



Is there maybe a little bitterness in Aragorn’s description of how thankless the rangers’ lot has been? If so, is he answering Boromir in kind (“Well, you think YOU have it bad being the only formal army in the field? How do you think WE feel...” etc.) Or is he making common cause with Boromir here - claiming the common predicament of being the under-thanked defenders of the peace?

Yes, I hear the bitterness - and using Butterbur and one of the examples, when we have seen their interaction, is perfect. They both have levels of thanklessness here: the line of Stewards who have served but who will never be King; and the tireless Rangers who defend people who never really see them. So in that they have more in common than they know.




Quote
[Boromir]: ‘...And at the least, while the Wise ones guard this Ring, we will fight on. Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide - if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of Kings of Men.’
‘Who can tell?’ said Aragorn. ‘But we will put it to the test one day.’
‘May that day not be too long delayed,’ said Boromir. ‘For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. ‘


How do you read this final Aragorn-Boromir exchange? Is Boromir being rude and hostile, or is he merely keeping his options open? Does he now accept Aragorn’s claim, and is now only looking for proof of the fitness of the claimant? (Is this why Aragorn is relaxed in reply - because he’s confident about his “sinews”?) Is it significant that Boromir makes his most direct appeal for aid in the chapter only at this point? To what extent is this appeal now an appeal to Aragorn personally? Any other thoughts on Boromir and Aragorn, as they are revealed in this chapter?





I take this as a direct challenge: Boromir is being as dismissive of this Ranger as the circumstances allow, I think. I hear disdain in the 'not an heirloom only' phrase. As if Aragorn is hiding behind the blade and has little more to offer.


I don't see Aragorn as 'relaxed'. I see him as challenging Boromir back, and a wee bit hostile himself - with plenty of provocation.

Again, they have more in common than not! But they cannot yet see it.








(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 9 2015, 3:25am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 8:06am

Post #5 of 21 (3650 views)
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Aragorn: ‘Who can tell? But we will put it to the test one day.’ [In reply to] Can't Post

That's an interesting take on that line. I had imagined it as said in a relaxed way - Aragorn not being riled by a statement that is pretty rude, actually. I thought of him as being not only confident of his own abilities, but sure that he can win Boromir over, given the opportunities a long journey South will provide.

(Indeed, Gandalf starts the good work for him in the next section of the chapter, inviting Aragorn to contribute to the account of capturing Gollum in a way that shows Aragorn is a long-time trusted ally of the wizard.)

But the line absolutely could be delivered as a veiled counter-challenge!

Either way, what Aragorn doesn't do is to insist on rebutting the implied slight by launching immediately into a long account of his achievements. That is of course what Boromir did, reacting to Elrond on behalf on behalf of his (Boromir's) city, and with a perhaps not-accidental side-light on his own prowess.

I like your analysis that this is a difference between the men's upbringing: Boromir in the public eye the whole time, Aragorn having learned to wait and gauge the best opportunity. Possibly it speaks of their personalities too (not that personality can be completely untangled from upbringing, of course!)


How do you read the tone of Boromir's reply to this:


Quote
‘Who can tell?’ said Aragorn. ‘But we will put it to the test one day.’
‘May that day not be too long delayed,’ said Boromir. ‘For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. ‘


While it is indirect, "‘May that day not be too long delayed, For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. " could certainly be delivered as a personal appeal now: to what extent is Boromir now hopeful that he will come home triumphantly with the King?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 8:26am

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What if it had been the other brother? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's an area in which it might be fun to speculate - what if Gondor's ambassador at this meeting was Faramir, for whom one might readily think the mission to Imladris was originally intended (because he had The Dream first and more often)?

I imagine Farmir handling the meeting rather differently. Boromir is the kind of person (as I read him) who must push himself forward. I expect most of us who have attended a fair number of meetings are used to this type (and the problems they cause the Chair of the meeting!) Faramir (as we see him interrogating Sam and Frodo later) is more like Aragorn - willing to hold back and assess. Would he do better, worse, or just differently?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 9 2015, 5:52pm

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An Elvish Pupil. [In reply to] Can't Post

When kings the sword of justice first lay down,
They are no kings, though they possess the crown.
Titles are shadows, crowns are empty things,
The good of subjects is the end of kings.

-Daniel Defoe, The True-Born Englishman


Is the scruffy work outfit a misjudgement by Aragorn, or does it indicate that he expected a more modest role in the meeting and was not expecting what Boromir has had to say?

It is an honest statement of who and what he is.


Would yesterday evening’s elven-mail and star have been a better costume….

Was it?

"…and he seemed to be clad in elven-mail, and a star shone on his breast."
(Emphasis mine.)


…in which to appear to the proud, martial Boromir…

“Oh this old thing? It was given to me by Lady Galadriel of the Golden Wood,”

“Of that perilous land we have heard in Gondor…”


… and claim to be the long-lost heir to Isildur (and therefore Boromir’s rightful King)?

“Hi! I’m an Elf-friend raised by Elves, engaged to an Elf, wearing Elven armor and Elven jewelry and I should be the King of Men.”

“Er, riiiight…..”


Did Aragorn know, I wonder, what Boromir’s mission was before Boromir just described it, or was there no time for Elrond to tip him off?

Frodo is not the only poor sap being set up.


Was Frodo really ready to give up the Ring, had Aragorn claimed it?

As sincere as any addict who says “I can quit any time I want!”


Or would he quickly find himself trying to retain it?

I’m sure there’d be a few false starts with the ring ending up back in Frodo’s pocket.


What (if anything) should we make of Aragorn’s rejection of ownership - note he doesn’t say that he doesn't dare to take it (though that would probably be a wise reaction), but that it has been “ordained” to be someone else’s job?

Surely it’s only fair that if he recognizes Frodo is ordained to be Ringbearer then there’ll be no objection to his claim of being ordained as High King.


Frodo reluctantly brings out the Ring - he does not want to show it (or it does not want to be shown, perhaps). Frodo feels shame and fear, and a loathing of the Ring’s touch.
Is there a similarity to Frodo’s reluctance to hand the Ring to Gandalf exactly 1 “Book” ago (Book 1 Chapter 2: The Shadow of the Past)?


Yes and no.


Why shame, fear and loathing this time as opposed to reluctance then?

Now he knows the ring’s loathsome history, and how evil it is.


“Behold Isildur’s Bane!” (says Elrond,...

I bet there's a drumroll, a blare of trumpets, and a crash of cymbals. Subtlety really doesn't seem Elrond's forte.


...though technically speaking the meeting is still trying to establish that this is what the Ring is ).

Riiiiight….


Boromir struggles to keep up with these revelations- does this mean that the doom of Minas Tirith has come?
Aragorn reminds Boromir of the multiple meanings of “doom” - he says “doom and great deeds are indeed at hand”. (The usual meaning of doom in modern English is something like ‘an unpleasant fate’ but it can also mean ‘judgement’).


Or pre-ordained destiny.


“Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?” Aragorn asks Boromir.

Boromir is not sure, and among his doubts appears to be whether this scruffy ranger chap could actually be of the House of Elendil. This annoys Bilbo, who interrupts to recite his “All that is gold does not glitter” verse.
What motives do you see in Boromir’s skeptical reaction?


Wasn’t the question already decided in the negative by a previous council?


He immediately says that he was “not sent to beg any boon” - is this pride only, or should we make allowances for a delegate who has been thrown an unexpected situation well outside any mandate he might have been dispatched with?

The main function of a delegate would be to collect information. Any other act, such as recognizing the legitimacy of a previously dismissed claim of rulership, would definitely require a decision from superiors.


Is there maybe a little bitterness in Aragorn’s description of how thankless the rangers’ lot has been?

Aragorn does seem to have rare moments of peevishness, for example his snarkiness towards the Herb-master in the Houses of Healing.


If so, is he answering Boromir in kind (“Well, you think YOU have it bad being the only formal army in the field? How do you think WE feel...” etc.) Or is he making common cause with Boromir here - claiming the common predicament of being the under-thanked defenders of the peace?

I’ve always felt he was attempting to show common ground.


How do you read this final Aragorn-Boromir exchange?

Boromir is keeping his, or rather Gondor’s, options open.


Is Boromir being rude and hostile, or is he merely keeping his options open?

I think he’s suspicious of Elven influence.


Does he now accept Aragorn’s claim, and is now only looking for proof of the fitness of the claimant?

I think he’s suspicious Aragorn may not be a King of Men, but rather a Puppet of Elves. (Not to mention a Wizard’s Pupil.)


(Is this why Aragorn is relaxed in reply - because he’s confident about his “sinews”?)

He knows who he is.


Is it significant that Boromir makes his most direct appeal for aid in the chapter only at this point?

After all the info about Elves, Halflings, Wizards, and Eagles he wants to bring focus back onto Men.


To what extent is this appeal now an appeal to Aragorn personally?

Mano-a-Mano rather than Mano-a-Duende.


Any other thoughts on Boromir and Aragorn, as they are revealed in this chapter?

The two should have sat down at the feast together and had some pie.

lf you got a problem you can't solve, then pie helps you to get out of your head.

Let the pie work.

Trust the pie.

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 9 2015, 6:47pm

Post #8 of 21 (3633 views)
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"A chance for Boromir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess Aragorn's claim would be immediately accepted at the council by Faramir:

Suddenly Faramir stirred, and he opened his eyes, and he looked on Aragorn who bent over him; and a light of knowledge and love was kindled in his eyes, and he spoke softly. 'My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?'
'Walk no more in the shadows, but awake!' said Aragorn. 'You are weary. Rest a while, and take food, and be ready when I return.'
'I will, lord,' said Faramir. 'For who would lie idle when the king has returned?'

-The Houses of Healing

Denethor would never forgive him.

'I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'
-The Pyre of Denethor

Being a Wzard's Pupil is bad enough, but a Pretender's Herald?

As for the other brother:

"And here in the wild I have you: two halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Rings. A pretty stroke of fortune! A chance for Boromir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality! Ha!"

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 9 2015, 6:50pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 8:59pm

Post #9 of 21 (3612 views)
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Faramir at the meeting [In reply to] Can't Post

Why stop there? Can you imagine Denethor representing Gondor at the Council? Wouldn't it have devolved into a shouting match in the first 10 minutes if he had? "Give me that Halfling's Ring, and I'll show you how to save Middle-earth!"

But great idea. If Faramir had been present, I see him echoing Aragorn's presence since they're not too differrent. He would understand things much better than Boromir did, see the evil of the Ring, and doubtless readily agree to its destruction rather than think about how he'd use it to save Gondor. I also see him contributing intelligent questions and ideas to the discussion rather than being The Slow One like his brother.

I often wonder how the Fellowship would have been if Faramir had been in Boromir's place. He wouldn't have jumped at Frodo to scare him off, but Frodo may have made that decision anyway. And the Orcs would have attacked anyway, so maybe Faramir would be dead. I'm never sure the outcome would be much different, except that if Boromir had been the one to find Frodo & Sam in Ithilien, he wouldn't pass the Ring's test like Faramir.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 9:03pm

Post #10 of 21 (3609 views)
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Boromir and Denethor of like mind [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf will say to Denethor in Minas Tirith that he's guilty of only thinking about Gondor's fate whereas Gandalf must think of the world, and I'd say like father, like son. Not that I blame them, but Boromir is the least likely of anyone present to see the big picture. The hobbits don't seem interested in using the Ring to make the Shire a great garden, and even Gloin doesn't talk about using the Ring to beat Sauron and/or get rich--only Boromir. The other Man present, Aragorn, gets the big picture.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 9:10pm

Post #11 of 21 (3607 views)
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Alpha male vs alpha male [In reply to] Can't Post

I take Aragorn's retort as a challenge too, one that might fly over Boromir's head, and might not. If I were a fly on the wall (or a hobbit in the corner) at this meeting, I'd feel the tension mounting between these two and half-anticipate Elrond saying, "Do you two want to take this outside?" Do they have bouncers in Rivendell? I'd be looking for one in a few minutes.

But I think Aragorn is confident in his sinews and not overly insulted by Boromir, just rising to his challenge to show he's no pushover. And Boromir, to his credit, does back off.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 9:47pm

Post #12 of 21 (3606 views)
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Boromir as reader stand-in [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent observation! I find Boromir a trifle vexing on re-reads because of course I know everything that the WIse do (even more, since I've read the Appendices and Unfinished Tales), but also, of course, on first read I'm sure Boromir voiced all the questions I had, I just can't remember.

What I do remember from first read is how exotic he seemed. The only Men we've seen until now are evil (Black Riders) or silly (Butterbur) or stupid & mean (Ferny). Aragorn was mysterious and in a class of his own on the way to Rivendell; he seemed vaguely Elvish or Wizardy to me. But Boromir is a fighting man from a far off kingdom talking places I had no concept of, and he was as mysterious in his own way as Aragorn. He seemed the perpetual square peg in the round council, even arguing (rightly) that Rohan wouldn't sell its horses to Mordor or give them in tribute. (Who listens to Eagle gossip, anyway?)

If Boromir hadn't played the role of needing all the fancy talk to be explained to the first-time reader, I imagine Sam would have had to do it. Do you suppose Tolkien ever considered putting Sam in the speak-up role? It seems a little awkward to have a servant-hobbit interrupting the Council and challenging the Elves to produce the Three, but okay if a prince of Gondor does it.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 10:18pm

Post #13 of 21 (3602 views)
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Boromir might leave the meeting feeling pretty pleased with his day, then [In reply to] Can't Post

He has sought, and now located both Imladris and then the Sword-that-was-broken. He has taken counsel, seen "Isildur's Bane" and halflings, and had the dream-riddle interpreted. Primary mission objectives achieved.

As a bonus, he has been admitted to the nearest thing Middle-earth has to a Summit Meeting, and has gathered a lot of useful intelligence. Hard to say what Denethor already knows, but probably Boromir has heard some useful stuff. And obviously Gondor is still seems as worth a seat on the Security Council, which is nice.

Additionally, the current owner of the Sword that was broken is now enthusiastic about brining it to Minas Tirith. Given Gondor's worsening military situation, it might be nice if he could also bring an army. But then again, since he intends to press a claim to being King, maybe it is better if he comes alone. The long journey South will provide lots of opportunities for pie-eating and other ways of assessing this man. So far, we only have elf-praise (which is no recommendation, as one old saying goes Wink )

This business about the Ring, and the plan to destroy rather than exploit it is interesting - something to consult superiors about, no doubt. But there is time for this. To get to Mordor, the Ring will probably be taken close to Gondor's sphere of influence, increasing Gondor's ability to influence s a change in plan, if Denethor thinks that best.

In return, Boromir has conceded nothing. Book-Boromir does not say, as the move Boromir does "If this is indeed the will of the Council, then Gondor will see it done."

He's a better diplomat than I had given him credit for, perhaps!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 9 2015, 10:29pm

Post #14 of 21 (3600 views)
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Or, worse still... [In reply to] Can't Post

Faramir goes South with the fellowship, and is not tempted by the Ring.
So perhaps Frodo is not attacked by a traitor within the Fellowship and does not set off from Amon Hen with just Sam.
Without the situation getting out of control at Amon Hen, Aragorn would probably have felt obliged to go with Frodo to Mordor.
...instead of him and the 2 younger hobbits providing a series of vital diversions, and toppling Saruman.

Could have gone worse, maybe...

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Apr 9 2015, 11:05pm

Post #15 of 21 (3585 views)
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Boromir was his own man and no wizard's pupil [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 10 2015, 8:28pm

Post #16 of 21 (3519 views)
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Fear, shame, and loathing--why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't put my finger exactly on the feeling, but since first read I've thought that Frodo felt exposed at this point to the Council, as if he'd been caught with his clothes off. And that may be off, but I'm still not sure after many reads exactly why he feels what he does. I can understand the reluctance, and would blame that on the Ring influencing him to *not* reveal it to hostiles, but why fear and shame? Is he really attached to it? He almost threw it at Aragorn when it seemed the latter could rightfully claim it.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 10 2015, 8:32pm

Post #17 of 21 (3519 views)
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So where does the Faramir-Boromir dream come from? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it spelled out in the HOME series? They hear the words spoken from "the West," but that could be Elrond, Galadriel, or other powers west of them, or of course from Valinor. It seems remarkable that a Halfling is mentioned so prominently, when hitherto the only one interested in them is Gandalf. But as a Maia he was associated with Irmo and putting "fair promptings of wisdom" in people who didn't know their origin--was he behind the dream? I don't think so, exactly, but I don't see the same dream coming to two brothers as an accident. Manwe, Ulmo, Irmo?


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 10 2015, 9:35pm

Post #18 of 21 (3511 views)
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I feel that too [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can't put my finger exactly on the feeling, but since first read I've thought that Frodo felt exposed at this point to the Council, as if he'd been caught with his clothes off.





That's how I feel. That among these insightful Elves, and after his long wanderings in the dark of his mind while infected with the Morgul-shard, that maybe he sense both whatever hold the Ring has on him and whatever psychic residue may still linger can be suddenly seen and felt? Hiding it from Hobbits is a different story than these assembled folk, when Gandalf and Elrond are both there.


He is essentially good enough in spirit to feel the negativity of it all - and will stay that way up until he claims the Ring.








CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 11 2015, 11:28am

Post #19 of 21 (3480 views)
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Thanks for the insight and for clarifying [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That among these insightful Elves, and after his long wanderings in the dark of his mind while infected with the Morgul-shard, that maybe he senses both whatever hold the Ring has on him and whatever psychic residue may still linger can be suddenly seen and felt? Hiding it from Hobbits is a different story than these assembled folk, when Gandalf and Elrond are both there.

*He is essentially good enough in spirit to feel the negativity of it all - and will stay that way up until he claims the Ring.*

I can put my finger on that feeling, so to speak. Smile


sador
Half-elven


Apr 15 2015, 12:07pm

Post #20 of 21 (3389 views)
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Who are you? (second time) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Boromir is written very skillfully in this chapter. His words and actions both reveal a lot of his character, as well as making him a useful reader surrogate (to ask the questions that are probably troubling a thoughtful reader). Do you agree, or disagree? How do you react to Boromir as you read?
Yes, I agree. And more than this - he is a reader surrogate who is amply answered, or at least Frodo accepts the answers, which makes the reader do so, too. So once Boromir remains unconvinced he is earmarked as a malcontent - no reader who has been convinced wants to be made aware of the deficiency of the answers he was persuaded by.
So not only is he a reader surrogate at first, but by this very facts Tolkien enlists the reader against sympathysing with him later. Well done!

Aragorn seems to believe that Boromir’s dream is a message for him, summoning him to Minas Tirith and the crown. Boromir is surprised by events - how does Aragorn try to win him over, and what do their exchanges tell us about the two men?

Aragorn seems to hold ordinary men in contempt, and to assume that Minas Tirith is just waiting for him to come. Boromir is naturally resentful about such ideas. It will take Aragorn some time to deserve the crown by anything beyond birthright - but he's not there yet.
At the moment, Aragorn does not try to win Boromir over, just to pull rank over him. It doesn't really work.


sador
Half-elven


Apr 15 2015, 2:45pm

Post #21 of 21 (3382 views)
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Layin low, seeking out the poorer quarters were the ragged people go [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the scruffy work outfit a misjudgement by Aragorn, or does it indicate that he expected a more modest role in the meeting and was not expecting what Boromir has had to say?
I hardly think Aragorn expected to play no part. And he had very little people to impress - probably only Gloin, Gimli and Boromir.
So I would guess he was just biding his time, and calling as little attention to himself as possible - either hoping Elrond or Gandalf will reveal him, or to make a dramatic announcement, for the benefit of those guests.

Would yesterday evening’s elven-mail and star have been a better costume in which to appear to the proud, martial Boromir and claim to be the long-lost heir to Isildur (and therefore Boromir’s rightful King)?
And call attention to himself too early? Nah.

Did Aragorn know, I wonder, what Boromir’s mission was before Boromir just described it, or was there no time for Elrond to tip him off?
He must have. It makes no sense otherwise. But he possibly have not heard the exact words of the riddle.

Was Frodo really ready to give up the Ring, had Aragorn claimed it?
Well, he was no match for Aragorn if not.

Or would he quickly find himself trying to retain it?
I guess he would.

What (if anything) should we make of Aragorn’s rejection of ownership - note he doesn’t say that he doesn't dare to take it (though that would probably be a wise reaction), but that it has been “ordained” to be someone else’s job?
I like Darkstone's answer.

But your observation that he doesn't say he doesn't dare to take the Ring is spot-on - thank you! In a subtle way, he seems to be holding out to Boromir a hope that it might be used.
On Amon Hen, Boromir would indeed put Aragorn and himself together as possible candidates for wielding the Ring, while dismissing Gandalf and Elrond. So apparently the ploy worked.

Is there a similarity to Frodo’s reluctance to hand the Ring to Gandalf exactly 1 “Book” ago (Book 1 Chapter 2: The Shadow of the Past)? Why shame, fear and loathing this time as opposed to reluctance then?
At Bag-end, he knew that Gandalf was going to try and harm the Ring, so he was reluctant.

Now it is different: and apart of fear of the Ring, once he kept something hidden next to his body for so long, exposing it raises all these feelings.
Later he would say that he feels naked, with nothing between him and the wheel of fire.

“Behold Isildur’s Bane!” (says Elrond, though technically speaking the meeting is still trying to establish that this is what the Ring is Wink).
Not quite. The leaders of the Council are quite satisfied in their minds about its identity - and if Boromir and Galdor didn't ask, they might have skipped the proving stage altogether.

Aragorn reminds Boromir of the multiple meanings of “doom” - he says “doom and great deeds are indeed at hand”. (The usual meaning of doom in modern English is something like ‘an unpleasant fate’ but it can also mean ‘judgement’).
But in that case, what do 'great deeds' have to do with it?

“Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?” Aragorn asks Boromir.
With Isildur's Bane again? Err...

And I note that Aragorn knows well enough that Lord Denethor is the steward to the House of Anarion. So Isildur's name doesn't work; let's go another generation back.

What motives do you see in Boromir’s skeptical reaction?
For one thing, he is surely considering the question you have raised - whether the High-elves couldn't have dressed up their candidate in a more representative way?
Or were they trying to pull his leg somehow?

He immediately says that he was “not sent to beg any boon” - is this pride only, or should we make allowances for a delegate who has been thrown an unexpected situation well outside any mandate he might have been dispatched with?
The dream sent him to seek for the sword. He naturally assumed it was to bring it back to Minas Tirith.
Now it seems he has to bring it with the swordbearer. Err...
So he assures Aragorn he does not intend to ask him to give it up.

Is there maybe a little bitterness in Aragorn’s description of how thankless the rangers’ lot has been?
Well-orchestrated bitterness.
Now, had he come to the Council arrayed in shiny elf-mail, it wouldn;t have worked.

If so, is he answering Boromir in kind (“Well, you think YOU have it bad being the only formal army in the field? How do you think WE feel...” etc.) Or is he making common cause with Boromir here - claiming the common predicament of being the under-thanked defenders of the peace?
He is casting feelers, yes.
Aragorn is deep.

My reading is - having not received an immediate acknowledgement of his claim and an invitation from Boromir, Aragorn announces that he will travel to Minas Tirith.
I suppose he knows well enough that Boromir had no mandate to do so.

Boromir reaction is to seek more evidence that the ring he has just seen is indeed Isildur’s Bane, the One Ring.
He is satisfied - or at least knows he had received as much of an answer as he will to the first part of the riddle. Now it's time for the second part.

How do you read this final Aragorn-Boromir exchange? Is Boromir being rude and hostile, or is he merely keeping his options open?
He really is in doubt. But at this time, a king needs to be first and foremost a warlord and statesman, and Aragorn hasn't presented any credentials to either.

Does he now accept Aragorn’s claim, and is now only looking for proof of the fitness of the claimant?
He knows better than to argue with it. He can't deny Aragorn's lineage - not in Elrond's face; but he has to see what to do next.

Is this why Aragorn is relaxed in reply - because he’s confident about his “sinews”?
In a way. He also knows it will be a long and perilous trip they have to take together, and wants to mollify Boromir.

Is it significant that Boromir makes his most direct appeal for aid in the chapter only at this point?
Now that he had achieved his quest, had found the sword and is bringing it to Gondor - he does state that they are dire pressed and in sore need. But he is still only making a statement, not appealing for aid.

To what extent is this appeal now an appeal to Aragorn personally?
It's an acceptance of his offer to come.

Any other thoughts on Boromir and Aragorn, as they are revealed in this chapter?
Is Aragorn a one-trick pony? He tried the same method of laying low and suddenly revealing himself on Frodo, and will on Eomer.
Luckily for the course of the War, both with duly impressed, and more pliable than Boromir.




 
 

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