|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 5 2015, 2:58pm
Post #1 of 44
(1985 views)
Shortcut
|
|
And concerning Saruman
|
Can't Post
|
|
Considering that after Sauron was banished from Dol Guldor and retreated and Saruman said that he would take care of Sauron, one would have thought that after however many years it was when Sauron arose stronger again, that Gandalf or someone would have had a little word with the White wizard on the lines of, 'So, just how did you take care of Sauron, then?'
|
|
|
Adrianna
Lorien
Apr 5 2015, 5:47pm
Post #2 of 44
(1819 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You pose an interesting point!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That no one from the Council bother to notice that Sauron was growing in power again and asked Saruman what did you do to take care of him. I wondered that myself. What was Saruman going to do to care of him. I mean it took Galadriel to send Sauron fleeing. Saruman really just fought off the nine. So what power did he have to defeat Sauron. I noticed in the LOTR trilogy that no one thought to notice that Saruman was not around. Unless Gandalf knew that Saruman went bad and bother not to say anything about it.
"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
|
|
|
Loresilme
Valinor
Apr 6 2015, 2:59pm
Post #3 of 44
(1598 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Perhaps it's the authority figure problem
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It's dangerous when everyone considers a particular person so above reproach that even if some have that 'something's not right' feeling, no one will dare question them. Until it's too late.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 3:37pm
Post #4 of 44
(1586 views)
Shortcut
|
In the book-canon, the White Council of 2953 was the last meeting of the Wise until the Council of Elrond. I can imagine Saruman of the films reporting how he followed Sauron to Mordor where the White Wizard was stopped by the Black Gate. However, Saruman would probably allay the fears of his colleagues with assurances that the Enemy's power is broken and the Master Ring forever lost--swept down the Anduin into the Sea. If nothing else, this might quiet any suspicions that Gandalf had about Bilbo's magic ring, much as it did in Tolkien's legendarium.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Adrianna
Lorien
Apr 6 2015, 4:24pm
Post #5 of 44
(1565 views)
Shortcut
|
So would that be the time when perhaps Saruman started his descent down hill as far as switching sides. From what I saw in the movies and haven't read the book yet. Saruman actually believed that Sauron would come back to power and claim Middle Earth. Well he certainly underestimated the Hobbits Frodo and Sam to destroy the ring. Even though it corrupted Frodo, Sam was there to get him through it. To me it seemed like Gandalf was a lot more powerful. I mean Saruman did give Gandalf a run for his money in The Two Towers but I was not impressed by Saruman.
"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 4:36pm
Post #6 of 44
(1561 views)
Shortcut
|
|
TA 2953: A Key Year for Saruman
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The year 2953 not only marked the last meeting of the White Council, but it was also the year when Saruman was given the keys to Isengard for his own (even though he had been dwelling there since 2759) and he fortified it. It was about this time that Saruman secretly started supporting Dunlendings and Orcs against Rohan and Fangorn, and also when he began spying on Gandalf and keeping agents in Bree and the Shire.
In the book-canon it is clear that Saruman has turned to evil by this time, although he would not become an actual servant of the Enemy until around the year 3000 when he attempted to use the Orthanc-stone only to have his will captured by Sauron. He had been deceiving the rest of the White Council since at least 2851, concealing his efforts to locate the One Ring for himself, but there may have been an element of self-delusion involved in this, where he thought that he was still acting for the common good. After all, if anyone other than Sauron was best-qualified to control the Master Ring it would be him. Right?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 6 2015, 4:41pm)
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 6 2015, 5:06pm
Post #7 of 44
(1554 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Although, to be fair, we probably ought to acknowledge....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That the work is very much on the reader's part if we want to delve into the inactions of the WC after Sauron's return to Mordor or Gandalf's inability to spot the identity of the Ring.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 5:16pm
Post #8 of 44
(1545 views)
Shortcut
|
That the work is very much on the reader's part if we want to delve into the inactions of the WC after Sauron's return to Mordor or Gandalf's inability to spot the identity of the Ring.
We also have to acknowledge that there are events in the books that either don't carry-over into the film-universe or don't occur in precisely (or even remotely) the same way. This has a profound effect on the history of Peter Jackson's Middle-earth (apologies to any who are offended by that phrase). It is probably best not to think too much about that history.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 6 2015, 5:23pm
Post #9 of 44
(1541 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I would agree that there are differences.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Though I would disagree that the film ME has a history beyond what the films show. In both cases I would suggest it is fairly fruitless to seek to come to conclusions about un-defined fictional history (unless one is just having fun speculating).
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 5:32pm
Post #10 of 44
(1544 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Miss-Calculation of Saruman was...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Weight of the Ring?
It was like a magnet to the River bottom.
Sauron instilled into it
"A Hold on MiddleEARTH".
SSOoo there was no way
It could have been swept out to SEA.
PLUS.."IT wanted to be Found."
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 5:46pm
Post #11 of 44
(1534 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, I would contend that the film-verse does have a history.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I would acknowledge, though, that the history of Jackson's Middle-earth is only vaguely defined and possibly riddled with internal contradictions.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 6:02pm
Post #12 of 44
(1537 views)
Shortcut
|
Sir Christopher Lee likes to say that Saruman was still good at the time of the Quest of Erebor, but in Tolkien's canon at least this was not the case. Tolkien wrote that Saruman was deliberately trying to set aside the fears of the Council that Sauron might recover the One Ring while he attempted to locate it for himself. The motives of Saruman in An Unexpected Journey are unclear; he is misguided at best and, at worst, he is deliberately deceiving the Council.
And here is another question: If Saruman is so certain that the threat of Sauron is finally and permanently ended then what is keeping the Istari in Middle-earth? Shouldn't they return to Valinor in the certainty that their mission is completed?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 6 2015, 6:20pm
Post #13 of 44
(1526 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It is certainly vague and partial - which makes it very difficult to be contradictory.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Usually contradictions arise only after a good deal of extrapolation - the bits of history the films do show aren't sufficiently specific to run into many difficulties unless we start tying them to other bits of the appendices/ the sil etc.
I tend to think if the story is silent on a piece of history (in both the books and films) then it's hard to make up a filler and set any store by it.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 6:40pm
Post #14 of 44
(1518 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, riddled with contradictions may have been an overstatement!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We can find at least one or two contradictions in the history of Jackson's Middle-earth. How does one defeat Nazgul who have been in existance for thousands of years already and lock them in tombs? The Nazgul constituted a serious threat long after the Last Alliance of Elves and Men saw the fall of Sauron, yet Saruman is absolutely certain that the Enemy cannot return.
On a lesser note, there are the questions the films bring to mind about Thranduil's Queen: He commissioned the necklace for her when she was alive? Dead? And her physical body perished...when? Was this before or after Thranduil was dragon-scarred?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 6 2015, 7:02pm
Post #15 of 44
(1512 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Ha - fear not. We'll not split hairs over a "riddled".
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
So I think I would see these as examples of the sort of thing I mean. The mentions of the Nazgul don't suggest any issue with imprisoning them (and indeed offer a couple of hints but nothing very specific. What issue does that give us within the films' history? It simply isn't stated.
On the issue of suspicion, this is again given almost no specifics - all we know is that they were imprisoned some time earlier. Why would that give us an issue with Saruman /Sauron? No comment is made other than in the opposite direction.
With the necklace I can't see that any of this ended up in the films - they don't say anything about the necklace so I'm not sure how that can be contradictory.
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 7:33pm
Post #16 of 44
(1502 views)
Shortcut
|
|
O-s, you have very Valid Points..SSOoo what
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Do you suppose was the Time Frame
that the Nine were imprisoned?
End of the Second AGE?
When do suppose the Nine were Released?
Many people {Bomby included} rely on your Deep Understanding
of the history of MiddleEARTH,
SSOoo...it is ALWAYS Nice to
get your Expertise
on this Sub-Plot...
Your Fan
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 8:16pm
Post #17 of 44
(1486 views)
Shortcut
|
Do you suppose was the Time Frame
that the Nine were imprisoned?
End of the Second AGE?
When do suppose the Nine were Released?
We get a rough answer for these questions in the movies themselves, mostly from the meeting of the White Council in An Unexpected Journey. Elrond reminds Gandalf that there has been 400 years of peace--the Watchful Peace, altered from how and when it was described by Tolkien. In Tolkien's legendarium the Watchful Peace was the period from TA 2063 to 2460 when Sauron was hiding in the East after Gandalf's first attempt to investigate Dol Guldur.
In the films, the Watchful Peace began with fall of Angmar after the defeat of the Witch-king (and the rest of the Nazgul, when the Nine were imprisoned in the tombs at the High Fells. Apparently, this happened sometime around the year 2540, give-or-take a few years, as opposed to the universe of the books where the Witch-king was defeated in 1975 and fled from the North. In the book-verse the Nazgul remained free to maintain Sauron's support in the East and the South and to plot against the North.
The Nazgul must have been freed from the tombs fairly recently. Their release is not discovered until Radagast investigates Dol Guldur on his own and this is only because of the recent Darkening of Mirkwood; so this was possibly a year or two before the Quest of Erebor and almost certainly before Gandalf first meets Thorin in Bree.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 9:08pm
Post #18 of 44
(1471 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Does this Match up with the Occupation
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
of Minas Morgul?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 6 2015, 9:23pm
Post #19 of 44
(1470 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, we might think that but the films don't actually state that.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
A bit of gestalt closure here and those extrapolations I mentioned before!
The films don't actually say that the 400 years of peace mentioned by Elrond are related to the WK or Angmar. They don't define who he means by the "we" who have lived in peace, either. Similarly the films do not suggest any particular date when the Nazgul were freed - it might have been recently or not.
All we actually know is that:
1. Elrond describes a group of people who have had peace for 400 years.
2. At some unspecified time in the past the WK was defeated and imprisoned
3. At some later unspecified time he was freed
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 10:40pm
Post #20 of 44
(1454 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A Fantasy Fore-SHADOWING Scene?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Speculation:
Saruman gets the Palantir from the
Statue
Seen in about 6 shots in that Courtyard, then as descends the
Steps to leave Dol Guldur, He reaches the Banks of the Anduin..
Looks in the Palantir
Seeking the Location of the ONE Ring in the Waters...BUT
Sauron interfers..therefore
Snaring him for the First TIME?
SURE, It's not CANON..
Jus' a Wild Guess from
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 11:48pm
Post #21 of 44
(1435 views)
Shortcut
|
Does this Match up with the Occupation of Minas Morgul?
They don't contradict each other at least. Although one wonders who controlled Minas Morgul once the Nazgul were entombed at the High Fells. Something must have kept Gondor from reclaiming the fortress during the 400 years of peace. Yet another complication brought about by Jackson's changes.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 7 2015, 12:06am
Post #22 of 44
(1429 views)
Shortcut
|
The films don't actually say that the 400 years of peace mentioned by Elrond are related to the WK or Angmar. They don't define who he means by the "we" who have lived in peace, either. Similarly the films do not suggest any particular date when the Nazgul were freed - it might have been recently or not.
All we actually know is that:
1. Elrond describes a group of people who have had peace for 400 years.
2. At some unspecified time in the past the WK was defeated and imprisoned
3. At some later unspecified time he was freed
Except that, yeah, they kinda DO say that.
ELROND: "Gandalf, for 400 years we have lived in peace; a hard won, watchful peace."
In the context of the films, what could this refer to other than the Fall of Angmar and the entombment of the Nine? It seems to be the only answer that makes sense. The implication is that the Witch-kjng fell 400 years before and his freedom has ended the time of peace. I might have jumped the gun with an estimate of around 2 years, but it could not have been very long ago.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 7 2015, 12:09am
Post #23 of 44
(1428 views)
Shortcut
|
Speculation: Saruman gets the Palantir from the Statue Seen in about 6 shots in that Courtyard, then as descends the Steps to leave Dol Guldur, He reaches the Banks of the Anduin.. bom
The globe on the statue is much more likely to be a mere representation of a palantir, not the real thing. I never thought that it was real and I still don't.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 12:34am
Post #24 of 44
(1428 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Why Show a Statue that Looks like Someone
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Staring into it, THEN?
Can't Think of a Reason...
It's Head is Knocked off, BUT the Pose
is SSOo Similar...
bom wins a Round Trip Ticket to NZ
if RIGHT!
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 7 2015, 12:45am
Post #25 of 44
(1420 views)
Shortcut
|
If the figure is a representation of an individual holding a palantir, why wouldn't the person be staring into it? That is what one does with a palantir. It seems to me that that would be the most natural way to depict it.
One more thing about Minal Morgul. The later date for the fall of Angmar actually works better in the context of the films because, if the Nazgul were imprisoned in tombs in TA 1975 then they would not have been able to sieze control of Minal Ithil just a few years later. That still doesn't answer the question, though, of who controlled it during Jackson's version of the Watchful Peace.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 7 2015, 12:49am)
|
|
|
|
|
1
