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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 5 2015, 7:17am
Post #1 of 51
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**Fellowship of the Ring Discussion - Council of Elrond - Thread 1 of 4: “There is much to hear and decide” The start of the chapter. **
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Welcome to the next installment of our continuing chapter-by-chapter discussion of Lord Of The Rings. For the next two weeks, we’re discussing the Council of Elrond.
I’d like to encourage everyone reading this to consider posting their views, answers or questions - all contributions are MOST welcome (OK, who read that in an Aragorn voice? Me too.).
These starter posts tend to become long and detailed, and so possibly fairly daunting to read. To get around this, I thought I would try something new this time: a post like this with admin announcements and a few summary questions. Then a post with a more detailed discussion of what happens, and more specific questions. I hope that enables people to participate without reading a long list of observations and questions, if they don’t enjoy that. If in a hurry, you could ignore the second post!. Do let me know whether you think this approach works (or of course if it doesn’t).
So then....
The chapter seems to me at least to be a sort of hinge point in the story. Up until now, the story has concerned realising what the Ring is, and then getting it to Rivenell. In this chapter, Frodo and his companions are connected to the wider world of Middle-earth, as we readers watch Sauron’s enemies pool information, combine and plan their counterattack. Meanwhile, Tolkien introduces significant new characters;and places and situations into which the story will later take our heroes. And there are surprises: as Bilbo will put it next chapter “everyone had an eye-opener” (Gandalf denies this, of course). So a lot goes on and the chapter is a very complex one. Prof Tom Shippey, (in JRR Tolkien, Author of the Century) points out that complexity better than I could:
“The chapter is a largely unappreciated tour de force, whose success may be gauged by the fact that few pause to recognize its complexity. It breaks, furthermore, most of the rules which might be given to an apprentice writer. For one thing, though it is fifteen thousand words long, in it nothing happens: it consists entirely of people talking. For another, it has an unusual number of speakers present (twelve), the majority of them (seven) unknown to the reader and appearing for the first time. Just to make things more difficult, the longest speech, by Gandalf, which takes up close on half the total, contains direct quotation from seven more speakers, or writers, all of them apart from Butterbur and Gaffer Gamgee new to the story, and some of them (Saruman, Denethor) to be extremely important to it later on. Other speakers, like Gloin, give direct quotation from yet more speakers, Dain and Sauron’s messenger. Like so many committee meetings, this chapter could very easily have disintegrated, lost its way or simply become too boring to follow. The fact that it does not is brought about by two things: Tolkien’s extremely firm grasp of the history (as earlier of the geography) of Middle-earth; and his unusual ability to suggest cultural variation by differences in mode of speech.”
Prof Tom Shippey, (JRR Tolkien, Author of the Century)
What are your thoughts on Shippey’s description of this chapter? Do you think the chapter is a Tour de Force, or a tedious infodump?
Do you agree or disagree that there is “cultural variation by differences in mode of speech” (e.g. that Elrond, Gloin, Aragorn, Boromir and Bilbo all speak differently)? If so, what effect(s) does it have on you as you read?
Not everyone enjoys a long explanation (larger image at the original location http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=659 )
What follows in the *next* post is a summary of the events of this section of the chapter, and some comments and questions. please read (or not read) and use (or not use) as you see fit! The rest of *this* post is to let you know how I plan to divide the chapter into reasonably manageable portions over the next 2 weeks - it can be helpful to know that if you have particular questions or comments you want to fit in.
What I propose is to do mostly by page, with a bit of cheating to allow a thematic discussion too. So I plan to start 4 threads over the next 2 weeks:
This thread: By page from the start of the chapter to “...but few knew where it lay.” That is, up to the end of Boromir's speech in which he reveals he has come to ask what the dream “Seek for the Sword that was broken (etc.) means.
Part way through this week - Aragorn and Boromir. By page: from “And here in the House of Elrond more shall be made clear to you.” That is, when Aragorn stands up and casts a broken sword onto the table in answer to Boromir’s “Seek for the Sword that was broken”, to the start of Bilbo’s account of the finding of the Ring (with a peek ahead to the final Aragorn-Boromir exchange many pages later). Thematically - what we learn about Aragorn, Boromir, their characters and the start of their relationship.
Start of next week: The adventures mostly of Gandalf: researching the Ring, capturing Gollum, and being captured by Saruman - by page this runs from “To some Bilbo’s tale was wholly new” to “But we have not yet come any nearer to our purpose, What shall we do with [the Ring].” Thematically - about the Ring and its corruption, about Saruman and Gandalf..
Later next week - What shall we do with [the Ring]? By page, from “But we have not yet come any nearer to our purpose, What shall we do with [the Ring].” to the end of the chapter. Thematically - about the council’s decisions. Also, in this chapter (a) Elrond claims that it has been “so ordered” that the Council be the authority to decide what to do with the Ring. Later (b) Boromir announces a prophetic dream. Then (c) Frodo volunteers to take the Ring, after a peculiar internal struggle, and is told by Elrond that 'I think this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.' ... I’m looking forward to discussing what all this might mean about fate, divine or supernatural intervention and free will in Middle-earth.. The last thread is also the obvious point to pick up Any Other Business (this is a committee meeting chapter, after all!)
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 5 2015, 7:25am
Post #2 of 51
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“There is much to hear and decide” The start of the Council of Elrond - detailed description of the chapter and more discussion prompts.
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What follows next is a summary of the events of this section of the chapter, and some comments and questions. please read (or not read) and use (or not use) as you see fit! The goal is to start a discussion not to set a quiz, so please feel free to answer none, some or all of the questions, or provide your own questions, comments and thoughts
The chapter starts as Frodo and Sam walk the terraces and meet Bilbo and Gandalf. Bells summon Gandalf, Frodo and Bilbo to a council (and “behind them, uninvited and for the moment forgotten, trotted Sam.”)
It reads almost as if Frodo didn’t know the Council was to happen - can that be right or is Gandalf explaining somewhat artificially to us readers information that Frodo and Bilbo already know?
“Uninvited and for the moment forgotten” by whom? By Frodo and Bilbo quite feasibly - but “forgotten” by Gandalf, and then by Elrond when the four of them turn up at the meeting? Or do Gandalf and Elrond have their own reasons for wanting Sam there?
There’s a sketchy description of the “porch” in which the meeting takes place, and a list of who is there. (Some of us recently discussed whether “porch” was an odd term to use here (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=845342#845342)
Boromir is described in more detail than the others. It’s clear that he has only just arrived. He gazes at Bilbo and Frodo “in sudden wonder” (Not seen halflings before, perhaps? Might this be important...?  ).
“Not all that was spoken and debated in the Council need now be told. Much was said of events in the world outside, especially in the South, and in the wide lands East of the Mountains”. Stuff we don’t need to know as readers, presumably. A more detailed account begins with Gloin’s speech.
Gloin relates how the dwarves of Erebor found that “Words began to be whispered in secret” about re-colonizing Moria.
What does “Words began to be whispered in secret” imply? Does it imply someone deliberately fomenting discontent? If so, who would be doing this, and for what reason?
Gloin describes how the expedition to Moria set off 30 years ago, but that after promising initial reports, contact with it was lost.
When contact with Moria is lost, does it seem odd that nobody sets out from Erebor to investigate ? Well, never mind, maybe we’ll go look ourselves...
Gloin then reports that a messenger has been coming from Sauron, wanting news of hobbits, or of Bilbo, or even “the least of rings, that once he stole”. Gloin has been sent to warn Bilbo, and to ask for advice about handling Sauron’s messenger.
Elrond congratulates Gloin for having come for advice.
Does Gloin get much help from this meeting, do you think? Or does he get only information about the wider context of what will shortly become the War of the Ring (and is that helpful)? Does Elrond (as chair of the meeting) have any other motives for getting Gloin to present his account to the meeting at this point?
Elrond then makes an extraordinary claim which I want to note here, though I’d like to reserve discussion of some of its implications for our last thread:
‘What shall we do with the Ring, the least of rings, the trifle that Sauron fancies? That is the doom that we must deem.
‘That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come here and here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.’
(my italics)
So, as I read it, Elrond proposes that the Council should regard itself as a divinely- (or at least supernaturally- ) appointed body granted competence and authority to decide what to do with the Ring. Either nobody objects to this idea,or they do not speak up as Elrond goes on to tell the story of the Rings of Power. The fate/free will philosophical issues about this are something I propose leaving until the end of our discussions (because I see a lot of thematic ground in common with Frodo’s decision to take the Ring onwards, and Elrond’s reaction to it).
Next, Elrond tells the story of the Rings of Power. Frodo is surprised that Elrond can give them an eye-witness account of the Last Alliance. Elrond replies that “I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories.”
“Many defeats, and many fruitless victories” seems a very negative way to sum up a long life: does this tell us something about the outlook of the elves of Middle-earth?
Elrond continues his account, reaching Isildur’s seizure of the Ring.
Now Boromir interjects in surprise: in Gondor it is not known that Isildur took the Ring.
Elrond continues once more, telling how the Ring betrayed Isildur and is known in the North as “Isildur’s Bane”. But this is also not known in Gondor.
Is it actually a bit surprising, how much about isildur has been forgotten in Minas Tirith?
Elrond completes his account, painting a picture of the decline of the Numenorean realms - complete collapse in the North, Gondor waning in the South. Wow - nobody interrupts for a whole page! Then Elrond finishes up, expecting to hand over to others for them to describe the finding of the Ring.
But Boromir interjects, wanting to say more about Minas Tirith. Whilst his words are proud, he tacitly agrees that Gondor is indeed hard-pressed (and sees itself as lacking willing and effective military allies).
Boromir continues, outlining his own mission to Rivendell. It was promoted by a dream that came to his (unnamed) brother, and once to Boromir himself (“Seek for the sword that was broken/In Imladris it dwells” etc.). Nobody could understand this dream, but Boromir’s (named) father Denethor knew that Imladris meant Rivendell. Boromir’s (still-unnamed) brother proposed seeking Imladris, but Boromir says: “since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.”
Boromir’s speech is very skilfully written, I think. We learn a lot about this new character, right from the point where he interrupts the business of the COuncil, because he feels Gondor has not been described fulsomely enough. Note how he takes care to mention his own deeds- both in battle and in questing for Imladris - without openly boasting. Also he manages to make it clear that Gondor is valliant but in desperate need of aid without asking for aid. We don’t learn the name of Boromir’s brother Faramir here - useful for Tolkien to keep as a surprise when we meet Faramir, or simply because making up names of characters is hard work and Tolkien hadn’t named Boromir’s brother yet? Regardless of those writing concerns it also seems to me to fit with the picture we’re getting of Boromir: I read him as being proud of his illustrious father, perhaps find in a more personal way of his brother, with whom the Council does not need to be impressed. Also of course, it might be important for a proud man that it was his brother’s idea to send out what still comes down to a call for help.
Your own observations and thoughts on this, please: and any other thoughts how the dialogue is used to give us insights into other characters who speak or are quoted. .
Nobody tells Boromir that it’s ridiculous to have come in search of answers to a dream. It seems that the characters live in a world where genuine prophetic dreams are possible (or at least, this gathering thinks they are). The philosophical consequences of this are something I want to discuss in the last thread of this chapter.
Note also how cleverly we have been led to understand that there is little of the prophetic dream Boromir could have understood before today. From Boromir’s own interjections in this chapter we have learned that it is not known in Gondor that “Isildur’s bane” = the One Ring, nor that “The Sword That Was Broken” might mean Elendil’s sword Narsil. We might infer from the “sudden wonder” with which Boromir greeted Frodo and Bilbo that he has not previously seen “halflings”. Boy, is Boromir in for a surprise!
..but that surprise ought to wait for the next thread, about Aragorn’s reaction to Boromir’s speech, and how Boromir takes it.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 5 2015, 7:31am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 5 2015, 2:37pm
Post #3 of 51
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One question about the Council.
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Why was no-one from Lorien there? Seen as there were people from just about everywhere else, shouldn't Galadriel have had a message about this either from Eru or maybe her mirror? One would have thought in this Council someone from one of the oldest and most powerful of the Wise would have been present or at least have had a proxy. Naturally, I know the real reason why, it was because Tolkien hadn't thought of Lorien yet when he wrote the chapter, but I wonder if there is a literary reason,
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 1:25am
Post #4 of 51
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Lorien and the Council of Elrond
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Since Lady Galadriel was introduced in The Fellowship of the Ring it would have been easy for Tolkien to insert a representative from Lothlorien into the Council of Elrond if he thought it necessary. But remember that this Council was an ad hoc event consisting of those who were already present or who could be summoned quickly. It was not as carefully planned as a meeting of the White Council.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 3:49am
Post #5 of 51
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Always one of my favorite chapters.
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The build up of tension alone could power the entire valley, light, heat and all for at least a year!
And I even felt that way in my early readings as a young teen when I had no patience for much of anything.
And yes to the cultural, and definitely personality variations among the speakers. I can feel the character differences--and word choice has a lot to do with that, especially in what I sense about timing and spacing, and the pacing of words within the sentences: longer words, shorter words, words that tend to take longer to pronounce or words that take less time to pronounce regardless of "actual length"; words that would be pronounced loudly or more softly--things we can pick up on even as we're reading silently, because I think many or possibly even most of us are hearing it in our heads.
And what a panorama of Middle Earth it gives us in microcosm.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Apr 6 2015, 3:54am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 7:26am
Post #6 of 51
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Another factor is that Elrond claims that those assembled are the delegates chosen by fate (or Eru, the Valar etc.) that's a claim I thought we might discuss later, when also discussing the passage where Frodo takes the Ring.
So for whatever reason, fate didn't send an invitation to Lorien, one assumes...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 7:30am
Post #7 of 51
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I like that the language variation is reasonably subtle...
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There are unusual words, and some archaic word orders. But none of the "forsooth! A pox on thy tushery!" over the top stuff to which some fantasy writers resort.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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One Ringer
Tol Eressea
Apr 6 2015, 11:51am
Post #8 of 51
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I'd chalk it up to good dialogue...
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One of the rare gifts in the realm of writing (book, film or otherwise) is the ability to stimulate the senses with dialogue solely. Whenever I think of the Council of Elrond I do typically think about how long it is and how it's a lot of talking, but in reality when I do read it it's more oft than not done in a single go. I think Shippey sums it up beautifully really. In terms of film the best comparison would be someone like Tarantino. Same deal: when I think of his movies there's always the thought of how long they are, but when actually watching them they're a blast simply from good dialogue, or rather, good characters and a great grasp on reality by the writer within his own fiction, just like Tolkien.
"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 12:00pm
Post #9 of 51
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'We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods'
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That is a line spoken by Gandalf once the company is on the road, long after the council. As we will learn, in fact Boromir, Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn all know enough about Lorien to understand its role in their adventure (an offer of protection and peril combined). Yet during a discussion of the company's future course Gandalf won't name the place, nor identify the inhabitants, to the ring-bearer or the other hobbits.
At the Coundil of Elrond, to explain the presence of an emissary from Galadriel and Celeborn would have been no more difficult for the author, in revision after completing the later sections, than it was to introduce Legolas with his news of the enemy's maneuvers, or Galdor who is simply said to have come "on an errand" from Cirdan. But plainly, Tolkien wished the very existence of Lothlorien to be something like classified information even to the other Free Peoples; for a representative of the "secret woods" to have been at the Council would be completely wrong on that basis.
On a side note, I am curious how we would know that a meeting of the White Council was "carefully planned". I didn't think we knew anything at all about it on a functional basis; even the various mentions of its membership, purpose, and accomplishments are vague and extremely inconsistent. I wouldn't be at all surprised if its proceedings and attendance records showed great similarities to Elrond's explanation of how this Council came about: through circumstance, opportunity, and providence.
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 6 2015, 2:52pm
Post #10 of 51
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At the Coundil of Elrond, to explain the presence of an emissary from Galadriel and Celeborn would have been no more difficult for the author, in revision after completing the later sections, than it was to introduce Legolas with his news of the enemy's maneuvers, or Galdor who is simply said to have come "on an errand" from Cirdan. But plainly, Tolkien wished the very existence of Lothlorien to be something like classified information even to the other Free Peoples; for a representative of the "secret woods" to have been at the Council would be completely wrong on that basis.
On a side note, I am curious how we would know that a meeting of the White Council was "carefully planned". I didn't think we knew anything at all about it on a functional basis; even the various mentions of its membership, purpose, and accomplishments are vague and extremely inconsistent. I wouldn't be at all surprised if its proceedings and attendance records showed great similarities to Elrond's explanation of how this Council came about: through circumstance, opportunity, and providence.
My statement about the White Council is a bit of an assumption on my part. However, I imagine that since this Council has a more-or-less regular and permanent core membership that it is likely that specific dates (or approximations of dates) would be set for meetings as needed, members summoned in advance and absenses noted and accounted for (if possible) before a meeting would commence.
How does one summon a member of the White Council? By messenger I suppose. Members of Elrond's house might have carried such messages: Gildor Inglorian, Elladan and Elrohir might have been tasked with such a mission. Also, both Elrond and Cirdan of the Grey Havens were friends and allies to the Rangers who might have also been entrusted to carry such invitations. A bird might normally have sufficed to notify Radagast, but apparently he seldom if ever attended Councils. Whoever was the current Chief of the Rangers of the North at any given time might have also been a part-time member of the White Council, only summoned on an as-needed basis; but that is also only speculation on my part.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 6 2015, 2:56pm)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 4:54pm
Post #11 of 51
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I'm sure his idea was to keep us in the story, not bounce us out with overdone technique.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 6 2015, 4:57pm
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I agree- convincing dialogue is hard to do: especially I'd think on this scale
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I've often read dialogue where everyone quickly starts to sound the same (or see drama with the same problem).
...or novels with multiple points of view but where the author can't maintain a different tone for different characters. They all begin to sound, perhaps, like the author does.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 12:02am
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Elrond makes it clear that fate has brought them all together, and it's odd that someone representing Cirdan is there but not Galadriel. Very, very odd. But I wonder if one explanation is that fate meant for her to be tempted by the Ring, and not in public. She hinted herself that to take it by force or fear from her guest would be what the Ring wanted, and that can only happen when Frodo is at her mercy at her home, not when she's a guest in Hotel Elrond. It might have been that the Big Test that fate wanted her to go through had to take place where she was at the pinnacle of her strength and she could really flex all her supernatural muscles to see how terrible she could become.
OK, so that's why Galadriel wasn't at the Council, but doesn't explain why she didn't have a surrogate like Cirdan.
Which makes me wonder about timing. Notice that after the Council, the Ring languishes in Rivendell for months, so there's no sense of urgency then, yet there's tremendous urgency to have a Council to decide its fate literally a day after Frodo wakes up. Why is that? Why not wait until a message can be sent to Lorien to get someone from there to attend? Or wait a week or two? Gandalf has known for years that the Ring has been in the Shire, and there was no urgency to get it to Rivendell sooner to have a debate about it. So, just why was Elrond acting like his hair was on fire? Was it necessary for the urgency of the plot, or internal to the story, that he had an insight that doom was at hand and had to be acted on?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 12:20am
Post #14 of 51
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Thanks for leading this chapter, Wiz! A daunting task it is indeed, especially when Shippey lays bare the complexity and density of it. I would never think to count up all the speakers, and how many of them are new, but the fact that I don't tells me that I am floating down the narrative river on a boat enjoying the scenery and not counting the trees that go past.
This is a difficult chapter for many readers who do find it an interminable infodump. For me on first read, I was already sucked into the story so much and intrigued by all the hints and teases that I never wanted this chapter to end! It gives so much information to the curious-minded (yes, I'm aptly named) that I wanted more and more. I certainly kept it bookmarked and referred back to it often as I read the rest of the book, and I always wondered who was being talked about (Beren, etc) and how I could find out more about them. I wanted Gandalf to talk less and Elrond to talk more. And I wanted to Galdor to speak up more and give me an idea what those Havens were like. I never thought Erestor seemed all that worthy of being chief counselor since he always seemed to ask the wrong question or get corrected, but everyone else came off as mighty sharp.
So yes, it's a tour de force.
And as you've pointed out, it's essential for its success that the characters speak so differently. Boromir is always a bit dense, Gloin sounds both proud and a little desperate, Gandalf sounds like only Gandalf can, and Elrond sounds like a paler version of Galadriel, ruing the world as it is like a melancholy but wise old Elf. Bilbo provides comic relief, and Frodo is once again our sensitive lens to the whole proceeding who wishes he wasn't part of it all but remains fascinated.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 12:58am
Post #15 of 51
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It reads almost as if Frodo didn’t know the Council was to happen - can that be right or is Gandalf explaining somewhat artificially to us readers information that Frodo and Bilbo already know? This has never seemed quite plausible to me, that Frodo wakes up after days near death, and he gets talked to death all day after a big dinner the night before, and that he had no idea it was coming. But in a way it works, and it plays in concert with Pippin hailing him as Lord of the Ring and being scolded by Gandalf: the hobbits are still like children in an adult world, and as a child, you have adults make all your decisions for you and you just go along with them: your parents tell you when dinner is, when you're going on vacation, when you're going to the doctor, etc. So in a thematic way, it works to have Gandalf spring this on Frodo.
Why does Sam get to tag along, as if no one notices him? He's not exactly hiding in that mysterious porch when Elrond calls him out. I surmise it's because hobbits are deemed harmless and good, and emphasis on the harmless, so if a pretty blue bird flew onto the porch, no one would dismiss it as a spy nor pay much notice to it either.
Gloin relates how the dwarves of Erebor found that “Words began to be whispered in secret” about re-colonizing Moria.
What does “Words began to be whispered in secret” imply? Does it imply someone deliberately fomenting discontent? If so, who would be doing this, and for what reason? One position could be that Dain runs an oppressive police state where dissent is stifled, but I'm joking about that. I think the nature of Dwarves is to be secretive for the sake of being secret. It's part of the cultural contrasts of this chapter. I don't think Elves in Rivendell would whisper in secret about recolonizing Gondolin, or not in the same way. They're too lofty for that. Dwarves are suspicious and distrusting by nature, so they whisper in secret when they don't need to.
And why didn't they go looking for Balin after communication halted? Honestly, that makes no sense at all. They can travel all the way to the Blue Mountains on a regular basis, or send Gloin to Rivendell, but they can't go check on their Ancestral Kingdom, their Sword-that-was-Broken-that-is-Reforged in its own way? Oh, c'mon! But I suppose it ruins the plot to say, "We sent our people to investigate and found Moria overrun with Orcs and a Balrog, so no idiot will ever set foot there again."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 12:59am
Post #16 of 51
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Does Gloin get much help from this meeting, do you think? Or does he get only information about the wider context of what will shortly become the War of the Ring (and is that helpful)? Does Elrond (as chair of the meeting) have any other motives for getting Gloin to present his account to the meeting at this point?
Shrewd question, my subtle Wizard. No, Gloin has not much to show for this journey, and he even gives up a son for it. But Elrond lets him in on TONS of Elf-lore that he wouldn't get otherwise, so maybe that's better than getting specific, actionable advice on dealing with dark messengers in the night out for trinkets that you could get from a gumball machine. Mere trifles, hah!
So, as I read it, Elrond proposes that the Council should regard itself as a divinely- (or at least supernaturally- ) appointed body granted competence and authority to decide what to do with the Ring. Either nobody objects to this idea,or they do not speak up as Elrond goes on to tell the story of the Rings of Power. The fate/free will philosophical issues about this are something I propose leaving until the end of our discussions (because I see a lot of thematic ground in common with Frodo’s decision to take the Ring onwards, and Elrond’s reaction to it).
Oh, so you're going to pull a Tolkien on us and make a hint at something and make us wait until later, are you? Ah, the agony of waiting! Do I spoil it now with exposition on fate vs free will, or are you so subtle and quick to anger that I'd be turned into a toad or something unnatural? Anyway, yes, this idea of fate ties in with Gandalf's comment to Frodo that he's meant to have the Ring, and NOT by its maker. And Elrond may feel that fate brought them all together but has not determined their path. You can still have free will with fate; it leads you to the cliff or the fork in the road, and you decide where to go from there. But it has led you there, so you don't have complete free will, or you would have avoided the situation completely--c'mon, who really CHOOSES to go to a COMMITTEE MEETING ALL DAY LONG of their own FREE WILL?!??!??!? Preposterous. 
“Many defeats, and many fruitless victories” seems a very negative way to sum up a long life: does this tell us something about the outlook of the elves of Middle-earth?
Oh, those gloomy Elves, do NOT invite them to your parties! I struggled with the Elvish outlook for years of re-reads, because Tolkien holds them up as the superior race and the ones to emulate, but I don't want to be sad all the time. I'd like to be wise, but not sad. But I think that when you factor in the immortality factor, it makes sense. The world weighs you down over thousands of years, and losses seem to outnumber gains, so you wind up sad. It does make sense. But since I admire the Elves the way Sam does, I wish they'd be happier for their own sakes.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 1:24am
Post #17 of 51
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Of Boromir and other thick skulls
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As much as I pick on Boromir, I think his outburst was justified. It's rather rude to disparage his country while he's in the room/porch. It's like inviting Italians to a forum and saying, "It's such a shame that Italy is so poor and backwards and is nothing like the glorious Roman Empire of old." Do you really expect the Italians to stay quiet?! But then he's not the brightest Numenorean on the branches of the White Tree of Gondor, so he sort of personifies what's gone wrong with that country in decline (I just said Gondor is in decline; any Gondorians in the Reading Room that I've besmirched??). He's more brawn than brains and not the exemplar that Aragorn and Faramir are.
What was bad for me on first read was not understanding how important Boromir was. He talks about fighting on the front lines (and yes, generals in the ancient world did go into combat, unlike nowadays) and going on missions without a retinue, and his father is a steward, which doesn't sound impressive. It wasn't until the end of the trilogy (and reading the appendices on Gondor's history), that I realized how important he really was. I don't think that comes across in this chapter even on subsequent reads. Elrond oddly introduces him to Gandalf as simply "a man from the South." He could have been a Southerner at Bree for all I know, and it's strange that Gandalf doesn't say, "You forget that I've been to Minas Tirith many times, Elrond, and I know who he is and his brother and father too," and Boromir doesn't say, "I'm not just a regular man, I'm heir to the throne of Gondor!" And really, where is his retinue???
But anyway, I agree with you that his speech is skillful and reveals much about his layers of personality as well as a fair amount about his homeland, and it's already become clear by this point in the book that just as Bilbo's adventure lay somewhere far to the East, Frodo's is far to the South, and Boromir is no peripheral character.
Nobody tells Boromir that it’s ridiculous to have come in search of answers to a dream. It seems that the characters live in a world where genuine prophetic dreams are possible (or at least, this gathering thinks they are). The philosophical consequences of this are something I want to discuss in the last thread of this chapter. Nice point. I'm so immersed in the story that I don't think it's ridiculous either. That's part of the mythical world, going on quests for answers to prophetic dreams and looking for wise men on the top of mountains (or in riven dells). Well, it's ridiculous to have flying, talking dragons too, right? And even a fox in the Shire that talks to itself. And Bombadil is rather ridiculous, so really, we've been prepared to take this seriously or we'd be off reading something serious, like Kafka, who turns men into roaches, and somehow makes that plausible too. 
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 2:19am
Post #18 of 51
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(And we do have a lot to cover. In a chapter where nothing happens.) What are your thoughts on Shippey’s description of this chapter? Do you think the chapter is a Tour de Force, or a tedious infodump? It *is* a sort of infodump, but a painless one. So as such, I rather agree with Professor Shippey. I note on the notion of infodump, the pacing and order of the information received is a clever one. We start, and it seems random, at Step 1, with Gloin and his story about the concerns of the Dwarves of Erebor and Dain's response to the messenger. So, wait - perhaps not so random, since LOTR is the expected 'sequel' to TH? We proceed into the Information Greenway with familiar names, places. Characters we have heard of already if we have read TH. Getting the reader's toes wet in a way that will not involve learning new names, places or concerns. Step 2 is information on Sauron; interestingly enough, a name that would have meant much had the Sil been published as a companion volume or a preceding work. Burt if LOTR was a viable connection to TH with some tinkering, Sil was not and alas does not appear on the stage. So we get background, and an ancient history lesson, along with the cementing of Elf lifespans and the place of Elrond in time; along with the valuable concept of the Half-elven which is utterly critical in linking the inheritance of the Firstborn with modern Men. This then, maybe one of the larger wanderings from the base material. Boromir now. Hmm. Now we are into new territory. New names, a Man (with a yet unnamed brother ...dum dum dummmmm... and a Steward for a father) that seems a foil to Aragorn at almost every turn so far. But then...back to the familiar, in a sense the *most* familiar, having drifted the furthest with Boromir, with Bilbo and his story. A familiar voice next, if new material, in Gandalf; and the King of Mirkwood makes a brief appearance, harkening again back to TH rather like an anchor. We have not travelled that far from old paths just yet - or if we have we have found them again. So if you look at the method in which the old mingles with the new, it is a clever weaving of comfort and exposition. That mix too, I think, helps to give it all a sense of 'history' as these elements come together not in the Middle-earth calendar, but the reader-calendar. Some newer things are the old here *to us*: Bilbo and new-reclaimed Erebor, and Tom Bombadil, for example. And the old - the Last Alliance, Earendil: these are new. I think that lends a fascinating internal sense of time and wonder to the story as it unfolds here, as JRRT laid it out.
Do you agree or disagree that there is “cultural variation by differences in mode of speech” (e.g. that Elrond, Gloin, Aragorn, Boromir and Bilbo all speak differently)? If so, what effect(s) does it have on you as you read? I do agree, and I can hear the 'voices' due to language. Aragorn here has that high sounding, poetic? perhaps way of speaking. Gandalf is to-the-point and has that flash of humor here and there ("I liked white better."  ) Elrond is elegant, lordly, yet not arrogant. Boromir is rougher on the edges in both word and attitude. So I am sure that lend itself too, to the painlessness of it all.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 7 2015, 2:21am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 2:33am
Post #19 of 51
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Elrond congratulates Gloin for having come for advice.
Does Gloin get much help from this meeting, do you think? Or does he get only information about the wider context of what will shortly become the War of the Ring (and is that helpful)? Does Elrond (as chair of the meeting) have any other motives for getting Gloin to present his account to the meeting at this point? In character? No, maybe not. But to the Dwarf mind, I think being included would make them allies: exclude them to your peril! And this is perhaps a payoff of earlier diplomacy on Elrond's part, to offer the Dwarf a welcome to Imladris where maybe before the battle at the Lonely Mountain such a thing may not have happened? From a story-standpoint, see my post above. I think Gloin serves a valuable bridge between TH and LOTR for the reader; especially in such a large chapter. Now Boromir interjects in surprise: in Gondor it is not known that Isildur took the Ring.
Elrond continues once more, telling how the Ring betrayed Isildur and is known in the North as “Isildur’s Bane”. But this is also not known in Gondor.
Is it actually a bit surprising, how much about isildur has been forgotten in Minas Tirith?
Yes, it has always surprised me quite a lot. It was this very idea that niggled me to post a while back about the seeming contradiction of Isildur disappearing at Gladden Fields and Boromir's assumption that the Ring would make him a great Captain of Men, versus just winking out of sight.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 2:36am
Post #20 of 51
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Gloin relates how the dwarves of Erebor found that “Words began to be whispered in secret” about re-colonizing Moria.
What does “Words began to be whispered in secret” imply? Does it imply someone deliberately fomenting discontent? If so, who would be doing this, and for what reason? One position could be that Dain runs an oppressive police state where dissent is stifled, but I'm joking about that. I think the nature of Dwarves is to be secretive for the sake of being secret. It's part of the cultural contrasts of this chapter. I don't think Elves in Rivendell would whisper in secret about recolonizing Gondolin, or not in the same way. They're too lofty for that. Dwarves are suspicious and distrusting by nature, so they whisper in secret when they don't need to.
And why didn't they go looking for Balin after communication halted? Honestly, that makes no sense at all. They can travel all the way to the Blue Mountains on a regular basis, or send Gloin to Rivendell, but they can't go check on their Ancestral Kingdom, their Sword-that-was-Broken-that-is-Reforged in its own way? Oh, c'mon! But I suppose it ruins the plot to say, "We sent our people to investigate and found Moria overrun with Orcs and a Balrog, so no idiot will ever set foot there again."
Hmmm. You've got me thinking. Does it all imply that Dain was never in favor of the excursion, and perhaps forbid or at least did not support a follow-up Search Party?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 2:44am
Post #22 of 51
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Frodo and Gandalf, minds on other things...
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The chapter starts as Frodo and Sam walk the terraces and meet Bilbo and Gandalf. Bells summon Gandalf, Frodo and Bilbo to a council (and “behind them, uninvited and for the moment forgotten, trotted Sam.”)
It reads almost as if Frodo didn’t know the Council was to happen - can that be right or is Gandalf explaining somewhat artificially to us readers information that Frodo and Bilbo already know?
What I like about this beginning is that it almost feels like Gandalf is bringing in the ceremonial lamb. Frodo is already looking away, wants to walk, to wander off to the pine-woods, but Gandalf gently but firmly brings him back to what must be done - what Gandalf knows what must be done. Thus I can see why Sam is 'forgotten'. Both Frodo and Gandalf have their minds on other things; Gandalf perhaps knowing what may lie ahead for this gentle, brave Hobbit in whose life his own choices have played so deeply. And Frodo with his mind wandering to freedom, which I think the woods is a fairly clear metaphor for.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 7:30am
Post #23 of 51
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Elvish outlook: "The world weighs you down over thousands of years, and losses seem to outnumber gains"
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I think that's very insightful. It might explain why the elves seem a bit obsessed with the past; holding on to what they had. That's the weakness Sauron exploited to get them involved in that Rings project in the first place of course.
It might also explain why Elrond is convinced that the way to run the meeting is to recount the entire Tale of the Ring, at great length (as several delegates comment) and despite interruptions from hastier folk. He's a historian in outlook, perhaps; seeing the past as the key to understanding the present.
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 7:40am
Post #24 of 51
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That's an interesting point: Frodo thinking about hiking happily in the woods, to contrast with his decision by chapters end to hike to Mordor!
I fancy that Gandalf knows full well that Sam is there, and is content (at least) hoping that The Assustant Ringbearer is selecting himself....
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 7 2015, 12:13pm
Post #25 of 51
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That's interesting. I didn't know Radagast was "seldom if ever" at the meetings of the White Council. Since the original mention of the council in The Hobbit was styled as a "great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic", and was later emended to the so-called White Council, apparently an organization of the Wise (said to be "the Istari and the chief Eldar"), I had always just assumed that Radagast, as both a white (i.e., good) wizard and an Istar, was as much in attendance as any of the other core members. I had even imagined, from the vague clues in the text of LotR, that he and Cirdan were the kind of get-along-go-along members whose vote Saruman could count on, since both Galadriel and Elrond seem to imply that they wished Gandalf had had more influence in the group's decisions regarding Sauron's reappearance.
Can you point me to where Raddie gets his wrist slapped as being slack at keeping up with his obligations regarding the Council?
squire online:
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