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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How could Thorin kill Azog the way he did?

boldog
Rohan


Apr 5 2015, 7:17am

Post #1 of 22 (3832 views)
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How could Thorin kill Azog the way he did? Can't Post

Once again, it seems to me that reality is overlooked again in these films.
Thorins death blow to Azog, was too "perfect"
Seriously, he had to Stab through thick steel Armour, as well as through Azogs thick flesh, with not even much of a swing. On top of all that, he had just suffered a blow to the chest. So does this make Thorin a superhuman?
Also, It always frustrates me to see how such a large powerful Orc, goes out with one stab almost instantly, while Thorin manages to walk away after being stabbed, pretty much the same way.

I dont know, it just seems a bit off to me

Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............


Arandir
Gondor


Apr 5 2015, 7:26am

Post #2 of 22 (3727 views)
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That is no common sword ... that is Orcrist! [In reply to] Can't Post

the Goblin Cleaver - and wielded by Thorin, King Under the Mountain, is an assured death sentence. Wink

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
Why we Love 'Sherlock'
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


(This post was edited by Arandir on Apr 5 2015, 7:27am)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Apr 5 2015, 7:56am

Post #3 of 22 (3720 views)
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I bring this up a lot... [In reply to] Can't Post

No Middle-earth related death and/or defeat will ever faze me after reading of Gothmog the Balrog's demise.

He was literally headbutted by an elf into a fountain...Laugh


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Apr 5 2015, 8:01am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Apr 5 2015, 8:12am

Post #4 of 22 (3713 views)
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Thorin isn't human and Orcrist is no ordinary sword.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin did kill Azog - you saw it happen. Don't always look for difficulties.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 5 2015, 11:34am

Post #5 of 22 (3664 views)
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It might be Okay [In reply to] Can't Post

to suspend your Reality-Based viewing
while watching a
Fantasy
Film
& just go with the FLOW...

There are many Reality-Based Impossibilities
in much of Tolkien's writings
& STILL we love them.

Same with PJ's version
if you let them be loved.

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Elarie
Grey Havens

Apr 5 2015, 11:46am

Post #6 of 22 (3662 views)
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The wounds [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose if you want to be realistic about it, the placement of the wounds is important. Thorin's wound appeared to be through his midsection, just below his chest and over to one side, while Azog's wound appeared to be higher up, maybe directly through his heart. I just assumed that Thorin died more slowly from internal bleeding - if he'd had a trauma team with a medical helicopter standing by, maybe he would have survived (sounds like a good job for Tauriel and the eagles Smile ).

Besides, if you think that's bad, try watching some Italian opera sometime - they stagger around the stage singing at the top of their lungs for 20 minutes after being shot, stabbed, hung and collapsing from fatal diseases. It's all about the story-telling. Wink

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


(This post was edited by Elarie on Apr 5 2015, 11:51am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 5 2015, 12:23pm

Post #7 of 22 (3631 views)
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Italian OperaSingers! HaHAhe.he..@ HIGH C?..// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Elarie
Grey Havens

Apr 5 2015, 1:21pm

Post #8 of 22 (3603 views)
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Singing... [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, now I want someone to do a fan edit of Thorin and Bilbo singing Misty Mountains in Italian at the top of the waterfall, with a five-army chorus chiming in down below as the breeze gently wafts through Thorin's hair and he coughs pitifully a few times before collapsing gracefully into Bilbo's arms while singing "Bilbo! Addio...io moro..."

Sniff...Frown

Curtain

What an ending! Wink

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 5 2015, 1:24pm

Post #9 of 22 (3603 views)
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...Humm, interesting...what a Mind you have... [In reply to] Can't Post

This production deserves to be in
Wembley Stadium!

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


balbo biggins
Rohan


Apr 5 2015, 1:43pm

Post #10 of 22 (3594 views)
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but [In reply to] Can't Post

out of everything that goes on in the middle earth films, this you find most unbelievable?

how about a bunny sled riding wizard on the back of a giant eagle with his mate the giant man that turns into a bear? lol


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 5 2015, 2:02pm

Post #11 of 22 (3582 views)
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Grounding fantasy. [In reply to] Can't Post

Too many filmmakers don't understand how to handle fantasy (although some, like Peter Jackson, should know better). The every day elements in a fantasy or science-fiction movie need to be handled realistically to make the fantastic stand out. If everything is possible then nothing is interesting. The challenge is achieving a balance without bogging down the moviegoer with details. Jackson sometimes fails to include enough detail (a problem particularly with the theatrical cut of The Battle of the Five Armies). It's amazing that a tilm so tightly edited can still run nearly two-and-a-half hours.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 5 2015, 2:09pm)


Elarie
Grey Havens

Apr 5 2015, 2:06pm

Post #12 of 22 (3573 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Il Trovatore" does have an Anvil Chorus that I think we could steal...Smile

http://www.metopera.org/...01?term=dHJvdmF0b3Jl

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 5 2015, 10:26pm

Post #13 of 22 (3442 views)
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Reality? The way I see it [In reply to] Can't Post

there are two possibilities: 1. simple force of will - Thorin wouldn't die before seeing Azog die; and 2. Thorin's wound was not instantly fatal, but Azog's was. And Azog had no trouble penetrating Thorin's chainmail, so why would Orchrist have any trouble cutting through whatever Azog was wearing? MY biggest problem with that scene (other than the fact that Thorin diedUnsure) is that Azog should have drown and never gotten back out of that ice - talk about unrealistic!

We had a set ending, it had to happen somehow - Thorin was supposed to die. I've thought alot about that scene, though, and I think PJ's point was that Thorin sacrificed himself to make sure that Azog died. At first I thought that Thorin allowed himself to be stabbed so Azog would be close enough to run through, but on subsequent viewings I decided that if Thorin didn't move his sword out of the way it would have been pinned against his chest, and Azog would have stabbed him anyway. A desperate move because he was in a desperate situation, which he shouldn't have been in because Azog should have drown. That scene was SO COOL, Thorin using his brains to defeat the giant Orc, it should have ended there - but just like Smaug, Thorin's plan didn't work. I guess the moral of the story is don't try to drown anything, not in ice water or molten gold, it won't work (LOL!)Mad

Not that I'd ever like Thorin's death scene, BUT I would have liked it better if Azog had drown, and as Thorin walked away he'd been run through by Bolg, right before Legolas or Beorn killed Bolg. Would have followed the book closer, too. Just my 2 cents.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


boldog
Rohan


Apr 6 2015, 12:12am

Post #14 of 22 (3396 views)
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Well couldn't they have made thorin pierce him in exposed flesh? [In reply to] Can't Post

Azogs neck was in easy reach, and a firm stab there would have been easily fatal.
If I was in Thorins situation, I would not hesitate to pierce the exposed flesh, rather then chance it in piercing through Armour as well.

But then that might have been "too" messy for the films rating.

Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 6 2015, 9:39am

Post #15 of 22 (3325 views)
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3 Things: [In reply to] Can't Post

1. "Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword"
in Azog's case, his lower left ARM was now a sword.

SSoo, his interest in Killed Thorin was his main concern
since he was constantly, Daily! reminded of how
Thorin had maimed him.

He lost some "Moxie" with with his Troops by having that injury
...But developed much "Street Creed" also, by using it
wherever one of his underlings Failed him,
like @ Weathertop?

It is Odd? that it was 4 pronged extension of his Arm @ Weathertop
but later replaced with the Silver Sword thingie.
{ Were they interchangeable?}

2. The Death scene is SSOoo..similar to many Climatic Death Scenes.
The Audience & the Hero THINK he is dead, but NO! there is
One more Battle to the Death to do,
until you get rid of him forever.

How, many Times have you seen
that in many Films?

3. Having him JUST Drown,
just wouldn't do
in a "Sword & Sorcery" Film.

IT is difficult to choreograph a
Sword fight &
Show any audience
Something New?

Yet, PJ DID... AND it will Stand the Test of Time
as one of the Greatest Fight Scenes Ever.

bom
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Avandel
Half-elven


Apr 6 2015, 3:14pm

Post #16 of 22 (3272 views)
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A neck is a smaller target at that angle tho [In reply to] Can't Post

While wielding a big sword; we see Thorin decapitate an orc, so it's not Thorin's strength and not Orcrist.

And the movie makes it clear that Thorin deliberately chooses a certain course of action. Agree with Elarie that the placement of the wounds differ as well, buying Thorin more time

(and don't get me started about where the wizards and elves might have been through all this so there could have been a different outcome anyway especially when Radagast flies right over the top of Thorin and Azog who are in the open and clearly visible Unimpressed
)

Having watched BOFA again this weekend while I think Thorin was well looked after in these films (seeing as he is my favorite I'm good with thatCool) I have more of a problem (still) of why Fili wasn't loaded up with dozens of knives and then I noticed Bard's kids are screaming re a slow-moving troll and within feet of them is a perfectly good LARGE open doorway they could have run away into.UnimpressedEvil


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 6 2015, 10:00pm

Post #17 of 22 (3202 views)
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The ice fight [In reply to] Can't Post

I will agree with you that the entire fight scene between Thorin and Azog was spectacular, and the ice sequence was really thrilling. But I'm not the first to ask how Azog could possibly jump up and break through the ice like that.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 7 2015, 1:29am

Post #18 of 22 (3176 views)
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How Tall is AZOG? 7 to 8 Feet Tall. [In reply to] Can't Post

He is a Giant Gundabad ORC...
& Incredibly Powerful...

SSOoo the Depth of the Flow isn't even that deep
@ the Edge of this REALLY Wide Frozen Waterfall....

& IF? you are trying to Save yourself
Extraordinary Power comes to you.

Pushing himself off the Bottom, likely wasn't that HARD
for this Monster.

ALSO,
Since he has Already Stuck Thorin with his Blade...
THAT.. might have given him Enough Lift to Spring Back up.

Jus' a Theory, nothing more..
bom
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 7 2015, 2:34am

Post #19 of 22 (3161 views)
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The only way it works is if the river is shallow at that point near the edge and if the ice is [In reply to] Can't Post

not too thick. It was cracking already and may have had some weak stress fractures. We also have to assume Azog is pretty impervious to extreme cold - hypothermia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlAY_ziKV_0

The ice looks about 1-1.5" thick when you see the pieces fly up.
There are some fracture lines on the ice. Azog had to think Thorin would see and track his body under the ice. The wound area on Thorin looks from the somewhat bad angle as a fatal mid abdomen aortic shot....he could only have survived a short while if it was off to the side and a lung wound. Azog also appears to take Orcrist right through is plate armor...punctures metal like a hot knife cuts through like butter a I guess....into his chest. Thorin also had strength left to throw Azog off him for his blow...some jiu jitsu training I guess.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 7 2015, 2:37am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 7 2015, 11:35am

Post #20 of 22 (3113 views)
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Lets look @ it from a "Naturalistic point" of.. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Spring, the run-off from the Snows of The Lonely Mountain
was likely pretty MAJOR, but this is Late Fall or Early November?

Even with intermittent Snow fall like we see in Dale,
The Flow would be pretty low. Plus it is spread across about
150+ feet. So the the flow of water under the ice couldn't have much.

In all the shots of the Lonely Mountain up to that point have
been fairly sunny. Much of what has run-off has already turned into ice.

Often there is even a gap between river Ice & the water level
which would have given AZOG something to breath.
Many people have survived under ice because of pockets of Air.

Azog's arms are massively strong, & having his ARMblade anchored into
Thorin's Boot also, was likely a great help for him, to be able to pull himself up
while pushing off the Bottom.

Seems sorta plausible? to Bomby.
How about you?
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 7 2015, 3:48pm

Post #21 of 22 (3070 views)
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It is plausible and not the biggest stretch of believability in the movie by a long shot. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 7 2015, 5:46pm

Post #22 of 22 (3049 views)
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In medieval and renaissance swordplay manuscripts, [In reply to] Can't Post

most swordmasters emphasize the deadliness of the point thrust. Compared to an edge cut, the thrust makes a much smaller entry wound, but it goes in much deeper, going past the skin and often reaches the "squishy bits" behind the ribs. You're much more likely to survive a swing of the sword edge than a thrust with the point.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107

 
 

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