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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Some thoughts on deviations from Tolkien

shadowdog
Rohan

Apr 2 2015, 4:19pm

Post #1 of 23 (2007 views)
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Some thoughts on deviations from Tolkien Can't Post

I have been reading all of the posts from those who think PJ ruined The Hobbit by adding characters and scenes. However, I thought the development of the script was controlled by del Toro. When PJ took over he had limited time to change the del Toro storylines. So who created Alfrid, Jackson or del Toro? The same with Radagast, the bunny sled, Taurel? Do we know exactly what was in del Toro's vision of The Hobbit and what Jackson added or changed from the del Toro vision and what he left in? The same question could be asked of the Goblin King and other scenes that people have complained about.


Bofur01
Lorien


Apr 2 2015, 4:57pm

Post #2 of 23 (1913 views)
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I was wondering the other day... [In reply to] Can't Post

That maybe the things that didn't work so well were maybe Del Toro ideas with Jackson execution, but we will probably never know.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Apr 2 2015, 5:46pm

Post #3 of 23 (1886 views)
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Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know about the other characters, but I do know Evangaline Lilly said the the Kili/Tauriel subplot was not presented until she arrived to film pickups. As far as I know del Toro having already removed himself from the project months before was not involved in the development of the pickup scenes.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Apr 2 2015, 5:52pm

Post #4 of 23 (1875 views)
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script [In reply to] Can't Post

The script was never necessarily "controlled" by del Toro. It was a collaborative effort between the four of them. And once he left back in 2010, as far as I know he had no more input. As far as the designs of specific characters, I'd say 99% of what we got was PJ's. He made it clear that he wasn't going to direct del Toro's version of the movies. Not because there was anything wrong with them, but because he just needed to create his own vision. I'm pretty sure Tauriel was there early on and might actually have been del Toro's idea. But of course all of the pickups with Tauriel were done without him.


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Apr 2 2015, 5:53pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 2 2015, 5:58pm

Post #5 of 23 (1874 views)
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With the number of changes made during development... [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt that very much, if any, of the original script made it into the final film.

There are images on DoS EE of Ron Perlman as Beorn (which looks much cooler than what we got) and the EE also has a lot of footage of del Toro's Smaug, which is a terrible design. It's almost certain that the Kili/Tauriel/Legolas stuff was invented while filming. Legolas' role was greatly expanded from a cameo role after Bloom returned, and the Kili love story does not fit with the original character descriptions in the casting calls.

It's easy to blame del Toro for all the things you didn't like, but the truth is it was PJs decision what to include and what not to, so it's really only his fault, and we have no idea what del Toro's vision would have been like. Although, going by his past projects it probably would have been a lot less messy. PJ has an issue with writing a great plan and then not sticking to it. Film is much better when it's carefully planned rather than improvised and thrown together.


(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Apr 2 2015, 6:00pm)


Smaug the iron
Gondor

Apr 2 2015, 6:01pm

Post #6 of 23 (1869 views)
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Wrong. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Kili and Taruriel was there from the start. Legolas part of it was pickups.
Love story, from the start.
Love triangle, pickups.
The healing scene in DOS was Evangaline Lilly first scene


shadowdog
Rohan

Apr 2 2015, 6:08pm

Post #7 of 23 (1857 views)
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That is part of what I was refering to [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a very short period of transition time from del Toro to Jackson. I think a lot of what complain is the "Jackson created mess" is due to the rush of trying to turn del Toro's vision into Jackson's vision. I was not "attempting" to "blame" del Toro or Jackson for the elements people don't like. I was simply wondering how much of the problem was caused by the switch over from one director to another causing changes to the script and the vision to be made.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Apr 2 2015, 7:04pm

Post #8 of 23 (1812 views)
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Uh...no [In reply to] Can't Post

Guillermo del Toro left The Hibbitin 2010. Lilly was not told of the Kili/Tauriel (love triangle) subplot until 2012.

In an article (the link is below) Lilly says: "For the record, when I took this job in 201, I made one stipulation. That's it. I just said...I swear to God, I said 'I will not do this film if you will not guarantee me one thing. You have to guarantee me there will be no love triangle.'

And there wasn't. For the whole time I shot. For a year of shooting there was no love triangle...And then I came back for re-shoots in 2012 and they were like 'Well, we made a couple of alterations to some scenes and we added a couple of more scenes.'

And all of a sudden manifested love triangle before my very eyes and the film was shot, and I'm in and there's no getting out and there was no escape."


In addition to this she has said this in interviews for the behind the scene footage and at conventions. Also, PJ says in the bonus features of BOTFA that when they decided to go to three films they had to write additional scenes.

http://moviepilot.com/...urce=external,manual


Bofur01
Lorien


Apr 2 2015, 7:21pm

Post #9 of 23 (1800 views)
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Kili/Tauriel is clearly not a triangle... [In reply to] Can't Post

And was in from the start. It was the Legolaspart that was added late. Read it again.


Smaug the iron
Gondor

Apr 2 2015, 8:21pm

Post #10 of 23 (1761 views)
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I said [In reply to] Can't Post

that the love triangle was pickups but Kili and Taruriel romance was from the start of shooting, Legolas was added during pickups.
Kili and Taruriel scene in the dungeon was shot in march 2012 and pickups wasn´t until 2013.


(This post was edited by Smaug the iron on Apr 2 2015, 8:27pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Apr 2 2015, 11:27pm

Post #11 of 23 (1699 views)
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Not exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a female Elf character "Itaril' planned that they hoped to cast with Saoirse Ronan in Del Toro's day.



AshNazg
Gondor


Apr 2 2015, 11:35pm

Post #12 of 23 (1693 views)
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The difference is that Itaril... [In reply to] Can't Post

...apparently fell in love with a "young elf lord" rather than one of the dwarves.


shadowdog
Rohan

Apr 3 2015, 12:04am

Post #13 of 23 (1680 views)
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It was hinted in the early scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

That Taurel was in love with Legolas before falling for Kili.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 3 2015, 7:09am

Post #14 of 23 (1623 views)
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Two interviews on how much GdT is left in the Jackson movies... [In reply to] Can't Post

One from 2012...
http://www.themarysue.com/...mo-del-toros-hobbit/


and the second from late last year:
http://news.moviefone.com/...he-hobbit-interview/



Quote
Moviefone: Guillermo del Toro was obviously going to do this initially. How much of that original material that you guys cooked up wound up in the original films and are we ever going to get a coffee table book of his designs?

Peter Jackson: Well, Philippa can give some sense of this... But it's hard to remember. Back when Guillermo was involved there were two drafts, because it was going to be two movies. And since then they have gone through multiple revisions by Philippa, Fran [Walsh], and myself. So it's hard, because sometimes you're revising dialogue but the fundamental idea Guillermo cooked up with us, and sometimes it wasn't. So it's all very hard to break it down. But certainly multiple drafts have happened since but we plotted out the major movements. His fingerprints are in there for sure.

Philippa Boyens: Recognizing that first draft and that initial work really is why he's got that screen credit, which we all totally agreed with.

PJ: It's more than just that first draft, it's just that things branched off of the plotting and the machinations of the plot.

PB: A lot of stuff changed because, as Fran and I saw it, we were writing for a different director.

PJ: I certainly had to change it. When I direct a movie, never once in my career have I ever picked up anybody else's script. Just somewhere in my DNA, my brain just doesn't work that way. If you gave me a script that you'd written, you could pay me all the money in the world and I couldn't direct. I'd be thinking through your head, wondering what you were thinking when you wrote these words, I'd be thinking through you rather than have direct contact with the script. For me to direct a movie I have to be there, creating these scenes and actually write them. So while a lot of things Guillermo did probably did survive in terms of tones and moods and plot things and character things, it was certainly revised for me once I was director because I don't operate any other way. Otherwise, I would have been trying to make a Guillermo film. I would be thinking, What would Guillermo do? Which is the last thing in the world that I should do. Because he should make his films and I should make my films.

PB: He had some important... Like he was there when we created Tariel. That was a big deal.

PJ: It's possible that not a single line of dialogue of his survived but there are characters and things. That's why it's hard to define.

And what about a book?

PJ: As Guillermo was picking up to go, we talked about it. He said, "Wouldn't this be great?" And I said, "Yeah, when the time is right." Which, I think, from Warner Bros' point of view, is when the three movies are out on DVD, so my three films will be out and done. We all have a great idea and intention for all of Guillermo's design work, all eighteen months worth, will be out in some form, whether it's a book or a DVD supplemental feature. But he's keen to do that and I'm very keen to do that too. It'll happen at some point.





"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 3 2015, 7:13am

Post #15 of 23 (1621 views)
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Yup...Tauriel was announced by PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=364786#364786
in June 2011




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 3 2015, 7:16am

Post #16 of 23 (1618 views)
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Exactly... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.movies.spoilertv.com/...it-casting-call.html


Quote
[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27. ACCENT – STANDARD R.P.

[ELF WARRIOR] An ELF-LORD of RIVENDELL. Tall and good-looking, he is very athletic and comes from a noble family. Wry and dry, with a sharp sense of humour, when forced into battle however, he is deadly with both sword and bow. Like all his race, he is a master horseman. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may be required. LEAD. AGE: 20-30. ACCENT - STANDARD R.P.





"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


shadowdog
Rohan

Apr 3 2015, 1:01pm

Post #17 of 23 (1569 views)
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The interview quoted [In reply to] Can't Post

says that the female elf warrior who later becameTaurel was created when del Toro was the director. And the elf lord she fell in love with later became Legolas.


(This post was edited by shadowdog on Apr 3 2015, 1:03pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Apr 3 2015, 1:29pm

Post #18 of 23 (1563 views)
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Does it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I couldn't find anything in either interview that referred to Legolas at all...


shadowdog
Rohan

Apr 3 2015, 4:45pm

Post #19 of 23 (1511 views)
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Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

The elf lord mentioned turned out to be Legolas in the films.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 3 2015, 5:10pm

Post #20 of 23 (1505 views)
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I believe what PB is meaning is that GdT was there... [In reply to] Can't Post

when the female Elf role was created - which would have been Itaril when GdT was still onboard. PJ's FB statement announcing EL as Tauriel is from June 2012 which is two years after Guillermo left the production:


http://www.theonering.net/...-departs-the-hobbit/




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


shadowdog
Rohan

Apr 3 2015, 7:25pm

Post #21 of 23 (1468 views)
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Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

The name was changed. My question deals with who created the character of an elf woman who was a warrior and secretly in love with an elf lord. The name changed, but from what I can read, the elf remained the same.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 3 2015, 9:02pm

Post #22 of 23 (1442 views)
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While I don't like the idea of a love story being inserted into a story that didn't need it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I would have have much rather had an Elf maiden falling in love with an Elf lord rather than the canon-breaking Elf/Dwarf silliness that we got. And the circumstances surrounding Kili's death were the last straw for me. Tauriel/Kili was an absolutely awful decision IMO.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 3 2015, 9:33pm

Post #23 of 23 (1431 views)
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Then we are in complete agreement on that at least! [In reply to] Can't Post

My point was that the Dwarf-Elf romance came in after GdT left. Jackson and Boyens have admitted they were looking to expand on the Gimli-Galadriel relationship for a long time and saw Tauriel as the ideal opportunity. Though I feel much as Salmacis infers, that it was badly handled, and in fact detracts from the uniqueness of Gimli's admiration for Galadriel, and the ground breaking friendship between Legolas and Gimli.




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Apr 3 2015, 9:37pm)

 
 

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