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Gianna
Rohan
Apr 2 2015, 12:33pm
Post #1 of 27
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Why did they name the hedgehog Sebastian?
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With all the Elvish names David Salo (or whoever did the language for TH) could've come up with, or nature names, or anything more Middle-earthy, the fact that they named a hedgehog Sebastian has bugged me since I saw AUJ the first time! Anyone know what the facts are behind that decision?
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 12:39pm
Post #2 of 27
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My instant reaction to that was -WHAT? I thought I hadn't heard him properly. I just ignore it now and accept it as part of the film. It is such a beautifully rendered hedgehog....
I haven't heard or read any comment on the name at all, but I'd lay odds that it's a Sylvester McCoy ad-lib that was allowed to stay in.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 12:45pm
Post #3 of 27
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Sebastian is the name of PJ's Assistant.
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It was explained somewhere in a video
that they named him that... in honor of
PJ's helper.
Which in Bomby's opinion is WAyCOOL!
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 12:47pm
Post #4 of 27
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Oh right - in that case I shall think better of it....
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It's a very nice reason - his name gets a cameo! 
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 12:56pm
Post #5 of 27
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In many ways Sebastian is PJ's Arm's & Leg's
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Not only bringing him teas about 22 times a day.
He probably has much to do SSoo.. PJ
can be
concentrating on the Film.
Radioing staff? that He can't do
Hunting down from Set to Set...
people that PJ needs soon,
or delaying meetings, etc.
Bom & many of you
WOULD consider that
A DREAM job.!!!
Every Genuis needzz.. a "GoFor"
Yeah Sebastian!
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 2 2015, 2:11pm
Post #7 of 27
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was martyred by the Romans, who shot him full of arrows. He is usually depicted in Renaissance art tied to a post with arrows in his chest. Hedgehog = pincushion.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 2:20pm
Post #9 of 27
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Someday Bomby hopes we will get a definative
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LIST of Cameos!
Example: Glen Boswell?
was in the "Inner Circle on Set", often since he was
the Over-All Stunt Coordinator..{Australian Chap}.
Did you know he played the Dwarf
that FIRST, found the Arkenstone?
in the Prologue...
Bom picks up on this stuff
since being in Theaters & Arenas
backstage for years.
Someday it will Finally be found out?
Where 2 of our very OWN,{TORnsibs} here!
Are in Laketown & Fighting in Dale...
Their Embargo HAS to be lifted
Sometime soon.
{Hint? Hint?}
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Apr 2 2015, 2:28pm
Post #10 of 27
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People in ME seem to name their animals whatever they fancy
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I'm not sure Sebastian is any more difficult than Bill.
If anything, it suggests more about Radagast than it does about the hedgehog - his lack of pomp and circumstance, his almost hobbit-ish qualities and his distance from the "higher" end of magic.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Apr 2 2015, 2:28pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 2:32pm
Post #11 of 27
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S. Meek can be seen in the "Survivors on the Shore"
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the morning after Laketown was destroyed.
He is VERY Tall, & passes a Basket from
Left to right in a Quick shot..VERY early in the scene.
He could also, be be in other shots there
but bom hasn't spotted him yet?
TheHUTT is a Great source of Trivia in these Movies
he is also, VERY involved very Much in
Germany's "Hobbitcon".
SSOoo..a confirmation from HIM
is a good thingie...
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Apr 2 2015, 2:37pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 2:40pm
Post #12 of 27
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I suppose I'm just used to Bill, so it's not a surprise. Sebastian always reminds me of a French children's TV series that used to be on many years ago - 'Belle and Sébastian' - small boy, large Pyrennean mountain dog.
But I'm now entirely converted to Sebastian the hedgehog, so that's OK.
(STOP PRESS - posts on TORn change someone's mind!  )
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Roheryn1
The Shire
Apr 2 2015, 9:34pm
Post #15 of 27
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Hmmm..good try. I still don't like it, although I admit Bill should be just as out-worldly, but it somehow doesn't bother me as much.I also don't like the Master's portrait - looks far too Netherlands 17th century.
(This post was edited by Roheryn1 on Apr 2 2015, 9:35pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 3:57am
Post #16 of 27
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Yes, it was very much for effect rather than period authenticity. I kept expecting
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Blackadder to pop up....with a brilliant plan.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 3 2015, 11:13am
Post #17 of 27
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genarators (or this one anyway)
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That generator isn't accurate at all, except for following its own "program" (if that's the right word, probably not). It has nothing to do with meaning anyway, and works by way (some computery way) of first and last letter recognition...
... or something.
... coincidentally, I just found out that if your name is Regina, you will, very luckily it seems, get a name that seems to be an actual translation!
But you'll also get a generated name here if you put in random Roman letters...
... or the whole Roman Aplhabet into one box 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 3 2015, 11:35am
Post #18 of 27
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Bill is Hobbitish... but Sebastian...
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In his guise as translator, Tolkien notes (Appendix F) that: "Names of classical origin have rarely been used; for the nearest equivalents to Latin and Greek in Shire lore were the Elvish tongues, and these the Hobbits seldom used in nomenclature."
Sebastian has a Latin and Greek etymology -- well I'm no linguist, but that's what several web sites are telling me anyway. I checked three at least. Of course Radagast is not a Hobbit. True enough but the Elvish tongues were available, as you say, for name-making.
Bill fits in a Hobbitish mode arguably because we have Hobbit names like Sam, Tom, Tim, Mat... but Tolkien also notes that he has not used names of Hebraic or similar origins, and that these abbreviated forms were really short for Tomba, Tolma, Matta... while Sam was really called Ban, for short.
And was Bill short for Bilba? Bilbo's actual Hobbit name? Hmm
Cue a mention of William Huggins the Troll... and the obvious response from Tolkien in a letter about that.
Anyway, if what has been noted in this thread is true, once again Jackson had his own motives in any case.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 3 2015, 12:10pm
Post #19 of 27
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And was Bill short for Bilba? Bilbo's actual Hobbit name? Hmm
Bill Ferny being noted here, in any case... before someone notes it 
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 6:03pm
Post #20 of 27
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Looking at some actual Sindarin and Quenya word lists
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Sindarin:
hedge ◈ cai S. [kˈɑj] n. hedge ◇ UT/282
tiny ◈ mîw N. [mˈiːw] adj. small, tiny, frail ◇ VT/45:35 ◈ pigen N. [pˈigɛn] adj. tiny ◇ Ety/382 ◈ tithen N. [tˈiθɛn] pl. tithin N. [tˈiθin] adj. little, tiny ◇ Ety/394
learned ◈ golwen N. [gˈɔlwɛn] adj. wise, learned in deep arts ◇ Ety/377 ◈ istui N. [ˈistuj] adj. learned ◇ Ety/361
animal ◈ lavan S. [lˈɑvɑn] pl. levain S. [lˈɛvɑjn] n. Zool. animal (usually applied to four-footed beasts, and never to reptiles or birds) ◇ WJ/388, WJ/416 ◈ *tad-dal S. [tˈɑd.dɑl] pl. tad-dail S. [tˈɑd.dɑjl] n. and adj. Zool. biped, two-legged animal ◇ WJ/388
So, one attempt could be Istui Tithen Iavan Golwen Cai - Learned small wise hedge animal.
Istuitithengolwencai....sounds like Sebastian. ;)
http://www.jrrvf.com/...ndar/dict-en-sd.html
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 3 2015, 6:03pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 6:15pm
Post #21 of 27
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SMALL níca, *nincë / Pitya
istima (wise, learned)
ANIMAL #celva (only pl. celvar is attested, translated "animals, living things that move" in Silm appendix and WJ:341); laman (pl. lamni or lamani) ("usually only applied to four-footed beasts, and never to reptiles and birds"); MALE ANIMAL hanu (male) –Silm:52/53,/405:3AN, WJ:416
HEDGE (jagged hedge of spikes) caraxë –KARAK
PRICK erca-, nasta- (sting); PRICKLE, SPINE erca –ERÉK, NAS
So, another attempt...Pitya istima erca karak celva - small wise prickly hedge animal -
Pityaistimaercakarakcelva....sounds like Sebastian. ;)
Or..Nicaistimaercakarakcelva
http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/wordlists.htm
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Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 4 2015, 12:49pm
Post #23 of 27
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Tolkien Anglicized hobbit names from original Westron...
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So Tim, Tom, Sam, Mat, Bill, Bob, Nob all represent peasant or villein names found in England. But the further hobbits climb up the halfling ladder of high society, their names get more and more absurdly grand and un-English.
In perusing the hobbit geneologies, one can’t help but notice the 'wealth' of ornate names bequeathed to scions of upper class Hobbit families. We have scholary references in Gerontius (from Cardinal Newman's Dream of Gerontius), Isengrim (from the Latin Ysengrimus, a wolf of early European tales like Reynard the Fox), Adelard (Adelard of Bath, a scholastic philosopher), Odovacar (a Gothic king) and Heribald (mentioned in Bede's Historiam Ecclesiasticam Gentis Anglorum); Latinate forms such as Belladonna, Hugo and Gundolpho; Frankish or Norman forms in Odo, Otho, Otto and Fredegar; from Spain, Esmerelda, Ferdinand and Sancho; from the Welsh, Meriadoc, Gorbadoc, Gormodoc, etc.; and a scattering of Germanic names like Filibert and Gerda.
Hobbits putting on airs.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Apr 4 2015, 12:50pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 4 2015, 3:32pm
Post #24 of 27
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That's true, and as you surely know, some of the Hobbit names are meant to be true Westron names, like Bilba, and surprisingly enough (perhaps), the implication of Appendix F seems to be that the Celtic sounding names are the actual names... aside from Meriadoc for instance (really Kalimac)!
Although that said, if we have any Latin examples I suppose we must emphasize Tolkien's "rarely" (used names of classical origin for Hobbits -- for the high sounding names JRRT seems to emphasize "largely" Frankish or Gothic), and allow that Sebastian could be considered Hobbitish in this sense, despite my implication earlier...
... and despite that Radagast is no Hobbit in any event, obviously.
So thanks Morthoron
By the way, is "Barrow-downs" down (I think you post there)?
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 4 2015, 3:41pm)
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Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 4 2015, 4:07pm
Post #25 of 27
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Well, as I stated some time ago...
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The whole presentation of Radagast by Peter Jackson is a direct lift T.H. White's Merlyn in The Once and Future King, and anyone who has read the book will know it is not coincidental. From the bird guano on his hat, to his outlandish home, to his friendship with a hedgehog. In Merlyn's case the hedgehog (referred to as "Urchin") had a wonderful Northumbrian accent ("Ah, don't 'ee nip our tender vitals, lovely Measter Brock, for 'ee wor a proper gennelman, 'ee wor.") and referred to King Arthur as "Your Maggy's Tea" or simply "Tiggy" when he got lazy.
As far as the name "Sebastian", the word was as off-putting from a suspension of disbelief standpoint as Radagast's ridiculous rabbit sled. It neither fits from a Middle-earth nomenclature point of view (although, we know some Latinization appears among hobbits, but that is more from an absurdist Halfling angle), nor a name a Maia would simply pull from a hat. Where would it come from? Radagast's home in Rhovanion (Rhosgobel to be exact), where he lived for centuries, would not yield such a name amongst mortal men. The naming conventions Tolkien supplied would be either Gothic (like Vidugavia or Vinitharya) or Anglo-Saxon/Norse (Beorn, Bard, Fram, Scatha, Éothéod). Not many Italians in Mirkwood.
But then, I thought Jackson's whole presentation of The Hobbit was horribly mangled.
P.S. Yes, the Barrow-Downs was hacked and is offline. We are hoping to get it back up and running as it is a cherished Middle-earth online site.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Apr 4 2015, 4:10pm)
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