|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Mar 30 2015, 7:08pm
Post #1 of 26
(2279 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Trolls in the Battle - how did that work?
|
Can't Post
|
|
Okay, here's my biggest quibble with the BOFA battle scene - the big trolls that walk up with the catapults on their back. My question is this: in AUJ we were told that trolls couldn't move about in daylight, so how come THOSE trolls could? I thought perhaps that was what the bats were for, to block out the sun, but they hadn't arrived yet, so how were those trolls able to be out in this battle? Any thoughts? Is there an explanation, or is this a continuity blooper? Or maybe even something not worth quibbling about?
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
|
|
|
gliido
Bree
Mar 30 2015, 7:57pm
Post #2 of 26
(2165 views)
Shortcut
|
My guess/justification? Different species of trolls.
|
|
|
Starglass
Rivendell
Mar 30 2015, 7:57pm
Post #3 of 26
(2164 views)
Shortcut
|
I've never really thought about this before, but you have a point. It doesn't really seem like there is an explanation for this in the film, so it may just be a continuity error.
Actually, the same thing happened in (movie) RotK during the Battle of Pelennor Fields. The sun was clearly visible behind the clouds and there were trolls walking around there too. So yeah, no clear explanation that I can think of.
|
|
|
MadgeBishop
Bree
Mar 30 2015, 10:13pm
Post #4 of 26
(2079 views)
Shortcut
|
I assume that they're meant to be Olog hai, who had resistance to sunlight. This is in the LOTR appendices (don't have the book to hand in order to cite). They weren't mentioned as being at the BOTFA in the book, but were at the Pelennor and before the Morannon.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 30 2015, 10:21pm
Post #5 of 26
(2073 views)
Shortcut
|
1. DIrect sunlight turns most Trolls to stone, but they may be able to tolerate the Sun if it is filtered through thick enough cloud cover (or other cover provided by smoke, thick fog, enough bats, etc.).
2. Olog-hai might not be the only variety of Troll immune to petrification (just the smartest).
3. Peter Jackson is a sloppy filmmaker.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 30 2015, 10:42pm
Post #6 of 26
(2064 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm still surprised that PJ didn't take advantage of the stone troll thing and use it for some battle gags. Sunlight could have crept through the clouds (or bats) and turned the trolls to stone mid-battle. I think that actually would have been cool to see. Much better than the weird stilt-legged troll. They would have had to bring in the bats earlier though, or just make it cloudier.
|
|
|
Bishop
Gondor
Mar 30 2015, 11:17pm
Post #7 of 26
(2042 views)
Shortcut
|
And I don't mean that in a mean spirited way at all. I just think that he wanted to pull out all of the stops for the BOTFA and was willing to abandon some ME logic to do it. I wouldn't necessarily believe this if it weren't for Goblins running around in broad daylight as well, for which there really is no good explanation.
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Mar 30 2015, 11:41pm
Post #8 of 26
(2031 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think it's result of unfortunate cinematography changes...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The fact that the orcs march in holes underground, to shade them from the sun, shows that PJ had thought about it. Why march underground? I think the original plan was this:
We see Azog marching from Dol Guldur only by night and Bolg comes and says "it will take too long to get to the mountain (if they only travel by night)" Azog says "they have forgotten about the great earth-eaters" and we see the trailer shot of the orcs all marching into the big holes. (So that they can march by day).
Legolas and Tauriel's scene then takes place in day, where they witness Bolg's use of bats to shield his guys from the sun as they march.
Then after Dain arrives, as he says his piece, the sun begins setting and once the sun is down the orcs and trolls can come marching out. The eagles would probably arrive as the sun rose and Thorin would die in front of a beautiful sunrise sky, to show the dawning of a new day.
Possibility 1: They didn't want the battle to happen in the dark so changed all the times and ignored the inconsistencies for the sake of a better lit, prettier battle. (most likely)
Possibility 2: Dain and the elves originally talked and fought for a lot longer, there was probably a different scene after the "wakey, wakey hobbit", and some things, events and times were shifted around and these times will be different in the EE (it could possibly explain why they're working so long on the EE, but I don't think it likely). A similar thing happened to Minas Tirith in RotK. The EE has night time shots, where the TE the same shots are in the day. So it's not impossible.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Mar 30 2015, 11:55pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 31 2015, 1:52pm
Post #9 of 26
(1854 views)
Shortcut
|
I know that in the film version of The Fellowship of the Ring it is Saruman who is credited with calling snow down upon the Company of the Ring at the pass of Caradhras, but it was Sauron in the book. Boromir says to the others:
'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy... They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
Now, by the time of the Battle of Five Armies Sauron has supposedly been defeated by the White Council and driven from Dol Guldur; however, Tolkien wrote in LotR that Sauron had anticipated the interferance of the Council and that his defeat was feigned and his withdrawal to Barad-dur was planned all along. He could have summoned heavy cloud cover to shield the Orcs and (especially) the Trolls from the effects of the Sun and that could have served as a subtle clue that his power was not broken. That could have worked better than the Were-worms that were supposed to dwell far away in the deserts of the far East that only accounted for sheltering one of the two forces of Orcs.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 31 2015, 2:02pm
Post #10 of 26
(1853 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The original battle was also by day.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Dain's force, in the book, had marched through the night so as to arrive early in the morning, much sooner than expected. The battle began probably before noon. I don't think that Jackson had any plan that substantially altered this other than the addition of the Trolls, Ogres and war-beasts. As I posted previously, it might have worked better to simply have the Enemy summon a heavy cover of thick clouds, heavier than what we actually see in the movie. We can justify it with the idea that Sauron might have (at leat in part) feigned his defeat in southern Mirkwood and his withdrawal was not entirely due to the actions of the White Council.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Elessar
Valinor
Mar 31 2015, 2:08pm
Post #11 of 26
(1847 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I took it that they're different breeds of Trolls
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That's why they could move around in the sun. Some of them did during ROTK so I figure why not here. I do want Weta to make a statue of them cause I'd like to own one.
|
|
|
lionoferebor
Rohan
Apr 1 2015, 1:24am
Post #12 of 26
(1731 views)
Shortcut
|
1. DIrect sunlight turns most Trolls to stone, but they may be able to tolerate the Sun if it is filtered through thick enough cloud cover (or other cover provided by smoke, thick fog, enough bats, etc.
In AUJ Gandalf says the only thing that can save the Company from the goblins is daylight. In the same manner, in LOTR after the Fellowship escapes Moria, Aragorn urges them to move on because "by night fall these lands will be swarming with orcs". Both of these accounts - especially the former - has led me to think orcs and goblins should not be able to move in daylight. However that has not been the case throughout both trilogies. So question is are orcs and goblins like trolls they should not be able to move in daylight? Also, just to clarify are goblins and orcs the same thing?
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 1 2015, 11:37am
Post #13 of 26
(1691 views)
Shortcut
|
In AUJ Gandalf says the only thing that can save the Company from the goblins is daylight. In the same manner, in LOTR after the Fellowship escapes Moria, Aragorn urges them to move on because "by night fall these lands will be swarming with orcs". Both of these accounts - especially the former - has led me to think orcs and goblins should not be able to move in daylight. However that has not been the case throughout both trilogies.
If the films are inconsistent about this (I'm not sure; and in the films goblins are seemingly different from orcs in some way)...
... if it helps (probably not) there is also the implication, in certain passages in the books, that goblins do not tolerate the sun well (which is not to say that they turn into stone or merely fall in exhaustion, for examples, but they do not like the sun and are affected by it in some measure).
But looking at the question as a whole, considering all passages in the books, I would say that it's only some goblins who do less well under the Sun than others, while other goblins not only run well under it, but brag about being able to...
... like Tolkien's bigger goblins, the Uruk-hai (called goblin-soldiers in the books, for example), who brag about not caring about the Sun. These Uruks negatively refer to the goblins of Moria as half-trained mountain maggots (at least those goblins of Moria that they squabbled with when Merry and Pippin were captured).
The Uruks called them this when they (these moria goblins) complained about running under the Sun. And I say these specific goblins from Moria, as in Moria there were black Uruks from Mordor when the Fellowship was there, but they don't seem to have followed the company...
... although Tolkien does note that a few of the larger Northeners remained with the Uruks at one point, and seemingly they ran as well under the sun as the Uruks of Isengard did. The group from Mordor also run under the sun very well, and don't complain about it... or brag about it, if I recall correctly.
Out of these three groups (chapter the Uruk-hai) the Uruk-hai and the Mordorian goblins run very well under the Winter sun! The Northerners (but arguably not all) less well.
It's nicely complicated 
Also, just to clarify are goblins and orcs the same thing?
In the films they are not the same thing. Or so I hear.
In the books orcs and "goblins" are exactly the same thing. See the revised note (the note before the story begins) published in the third edition of The Hobbit for instance, revised by JRRT in the 1960s.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 1 2015, 11:46am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 1 2015, 1:38pm
Post #14 of 26
(1660 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Common Orcs vs. Elite Soldiers
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In AUJ Gandalf says the only thing that can save the Company from the goblins is daylight. In the same manner, in LOTR after the Fellowship escapes Moria, Aragorn urges them to move on because "by night fall these lands will be swarming with orcs". Both of these accounts - especially the former - has led me to think orcs and goblins should not be able to move in daylight. However that has not been the case throughout both trilogies. So question is are orcs and goblins like trolls they should not be able to move in daylight? Also, just to clarify are goblins and orcs the same thing?
I think the difference is that common Orcs (including goblins) are very uncomfortable moving about in the daylight to the point where they are physically hampered by it to some degree. It might even cause them physical pain (although that is strictly conjecture). Elite Orc troops such as Azog's hunters have inured themselves to sunlight; forcing themselves to toughen up and accept the discomfort.
One of the Orc armies at Jackson's Battle of Five Armies traveled underground, mostly avoiding the issue of the Sun. The sky seems to have been at least partially overcast and this was at the beginning of winter, so perhaps that made things easier for both them and Bolg's force. The bats might have also provided some cover during Bolg's march, although they don't seem to have helped much with that during the battle on screen.
At the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron is more powerful than he has been in centuries. The force of his Will might give Orcs and goblins (and Trolls?) some additional protection. The Uruk-hai were bred to be more resistant to the effects of the Sun, as were Saruman's Half-orcs (from the book, where the Uruk-hai were bred by Sauron--although Saruman made good use of them).
In the books, goblin is just another word used by commoners for Orc. They are the same thing. In the films, goblins represent some smaller subspecies of Orc such as the goblins of Moria.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 1 2015, 1:54pm
Post #15 of 26
(1660 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I just made a gigantic list of every reference
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In the movie of orcs and sulight, and there are a LOT, but when I pressed post for some reason I was logged out  So annoyed.
|
|
|
Elessar
Valinor
Apr 1 2015, 2:32pm
Post #17 of 26
(1637 views)
Shortcut
|
I'd give this post a like.
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 1 2015, 3:03pm
Post #18 of 26
(1637 views)
Shortcut
|
FotR -
Bilbo talks about three trolls: "The sun's first light crept over the top of the trees *poof* and turned them all to stone". We then see these trolls shortly after Weathertop.
We only see orcs (including Saruman's workers) fighting and working at night, until Rivendell.
Gandalf tells Elrond: "Saruman has crossed Orcs with goblin-men, he's breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard. An army that can move in sunlight and cover great distance at speed."
We see our first live troll in Moria - fighting in the dark.
Outside Moria Aragorn says: "By nightfall this place will be swarming orcs" implying that they will not come out in the day.
Next time we see orcs is the Uruk-hai on Amon Hen, who have been bred to fight under daylight. The result of this new power is the breaking of the Fellowship.
TTT -
The Uruk-hai meet up with the orcs, who clearly don't like travelling under the sun. The Uruk-hai taunt them, and the orcs complain "We ain't going no further 'til we've had a breather". etc.
Aragorn and Legolas are also surprised at how fast the Uruk-hai travel under daylight. Aragorn: "Some evil gives speed to these creatures" Legolas: "They run as if the very whips of their masters were behind them"
Saruman says to an orc "build a dam, block the stream, work the furnaces night and day" implying that before they only worked at night, because they only had orcs.
Two trolls open the Black Gate, but are sheltered from the sun by the smog hanging over Mordor.
RotK -
Gandalf: "This is a devise of Sauron's making, a broil of fume he sends ahead of his host. The Orcs of Mordor have no love of daylight. So he covers the face of the sun to ease their passage along the road to war"
For the rest of the film, all orcs are sheltered by this fume. Because the fume issues from Mordor, Sauron is also able to send out trolls, without them being affected by the sun.
AUJ -
First mention of orcs is Kili: "They strike in the wee small hours, when everyone's asleep"
First trolls, William: "Dawn ain't far away, let's get a move on. I don't fancy being turned to stone" And later, Gandalf: "They could not have moved in daylight"
After Gandalf's white flash immobilizes the goblins, The Great Goblin: "He wields the Foehammer, "Beater", bright as daylight!"
And later, Gandalf: "Only one thing will save us. Daylight! Come on!" Before leaving the caves, where the goblins stop chasing them.
As soon as the sun sets Azog makes his attack.
DoS -
One vague reference, Beorn: "Go now, while you still have the light. your hunters are not far behind"
We only see the orcs at night, with the exception of the barrel scene, which can be put down to a desperate, unplanned attempt by Bolg.
BOFA -
The entire concept of sunlight's effects on orcs and trolls seems completely abandoned.
We just have to tell ourselves that different species aren't affected, but that does raise the question of why Sauron doesn't use these species more often to save on fumes. It also makes the bats and big burrowing worms pointless, if they're not there to shelter the sun and never attack anything.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Apr 1 2015, 3:06pm)
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 1 2015, 3:47pm
Post #19 of 26
(1622 views)
Shortcut
|
In the Two Towers there are trolls that open the black gate when Frodo and Sam are at the gate in the middle of the day.
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Apr 1 2015, 3:54pm
Post #20 of 26
(1616 views)
Shortcut
|
|
As I said, those trolls are sheltered by Mordor's smog
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Mordor is shaded by black fumes, issuing from Orodruin. Look at the sky in the scene. It's similar to the fumes hanging over Minas Tirith.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 1 2015, 4:03pm
Post #21 of 26
(1607 views)
Shortcut
|
In the books, goblin is just another word used by commoners for Orc. They are the same thing.
I agree they are the same thing, but I do not agree that goblin represents a word used by commoners (if I read your intent rightly here, that is). Or that this is necessarily so, at least.
I've seen this theory before, or something like it, presented by Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey himself, but in that theory he used a limited number of references to "goblin" (already compiled by someone else), and in my opinion Mr. Shippey is wrong here.
The word used by common folk (Hobbits) back in Frodo's day is orc. And its translation by the modern translator (Tolkien) is English "goblin", like Modern English "Elves" has often been used to translate the Quenya word Quendi or Quenya Eldar.
Shippey appears to propose that "goblin" represents an unknown Hobbitish word, while orc represents another word for these creatures used by other folk.
I know I'm no Tolkien-scholar, but again, he did not make his conclusion based on all the evidence. I found more references to "goblin" in The Lord of the Rings that he mentions, nor does he (in my opinion) give enough heed to three late sources, one published by JRRT himself, which (I argue) identify orc as an actual Westron word, and the word used by the Hobbits specifically (also used by the Rohirrim, specifically)
In my opinion. Unless you meant something else...
... then never mind 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 1 2015, 4:15pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 1 2015, 4:14pm
Post #22 of 26
(1589 views)
Shortcut
|
Orc would be the Westron word derived from the Sindarin orch (plural yrch). Goblin is used throughout The Hobbit; although Gandalf also mentions hobgoblins and orcs before he leaves the company at the eaves of Mirkwood. Goblin might indeed represent a Hobbitish term or it might be from a Mannish dialect or language other than Westron.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 1 2015, 4:15pm)
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 1 2015, 4:21pm
Post #23 of 26
(1583 views)
Shortcut
|
[
We see our first live troll in Moria - fighting in the dark.
That is a gave troll and we donīt know that there will turn to stone.
The only trolls we know turns to stone is Tom,Bert and William and there are Mountain trolls.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 1 2015, 4:29pm
Post #24 of 26
(1579 views)
Shortcut
|
Orc would be the Westron word derived from the Sindarin orch (plural yrch).
It is a Westron word, and it makes sense that it might have derived from the Sindarin form, but this is not attested by JRRT himself.
Goblin is used throughout The Hobbit; although Gandalf also mentions hobgoblins and orcs before he leaves the company at the eaves of Mirkwood. Goblin might indeed represent a Hobbitish term or it might be from a Mannish dialect or language other than Westron.
"Goblin" is modern English used to translate the Westron word Orc. The Hobbits used Orc itself, as specifically noted in Tolkien's revised note to the third edition of The Hobbit, and the word is identified again as Westron (more generally) in his explanation to translators of The Lord of the Rings...
... in theory (as Tolkien notes in the latter source) "goblin" should always appear in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (or almost always, as it is in The Hobbit).
As Westron the word orc "should" be translated to English, or something suitable in the langage of translation (German, Spanish, so on)...
... but JRRT explains that he began to prefer the word orc... so he asks the translators to leave orc where they find it (in the text). He asks that it not be translated where he has not translated it. It essentially becomes a Westron word within the English translation (despite that it is translated sometimes with "goblin"), similiar to Elvish words within the English translation.
For an example of Hobbitish usage we have rather: Westron Banakil "Halfling" -- a Westron word with its English(y) translation -- along with the Westron word kuduk "Hobbit" however, as a specifically Hobbitish word with its Englishy (imagined) translation.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 1 2015, 4:43pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 1 2015, 5:32pm
Post #25 of 26
(1552 views)
Shortcut
|
... thus we have the Hobbits said to have used the word orc, the word orc also said to be Westron (thus why not used by Men who speak Westron, or even Dwarves), and in Appendix F it's also said specifically that the Rohirrim used the word orc.
The suggestion to me is that orc is widely used. But again it would be translated "goblin" for English readers, when all these speakers used the word (as represented in the imagined 'real' written story before translation into English). Just like we translate Orcrist as "goblin-cleaver".
The confusion comes in (in my opinion) partly because:
A) the word orc is not always translated
B) in the external scenario (Tolkien changing his mind), some references, I would argue, were written with a seeming distinction in mind, like the orc reference added to the second edition of The Hobbit...
... but Tolkien's solution "absorbs" even the possibly confusing passages left in The Hobbit, and the (arguably) once intended distinction melts away. Just translate, in your head, the word orc with "goblin" in every instance of The Hobbit, (except the sword-name)...
... and there you have it
|
|
|
|
|
1
