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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 30 2015, 12:48am
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** Fellowship of the Ring discussion: ** 'Many Meetings': Songs, Poems and Elfstones
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POEMS AND SONGS:
This chapter features some significant and lovely bits of song; appropo as we are now in one of the strongholds of Elvendom. I would like to examine these and discuss their perceived meanings and implications both as your reader reaction as as they play into the larger story.
** A Elbereth Gilthoniel, sung by the Elves at the close of the mortals' night: I find part of this interesting as it relates to the 'tangled' trees as desrcibed in Frodo's dream in Crickhollow at the end of A Conspiracy Unmasked: ('Eventually he fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees...')
O Elbereth Starkindler
(white) glittering slants down
sparkling like jewels
from [the] firmament [the] glory [of] the star-host!
To-remote distance far-having gazed
from [the] tree-tangled* middle-lands,
Fanuilos, to thee I will chant
on this side of ocean, here on this side of the Great Ocean.
(*Bold by me)
Translation: J.R.R. Tolkien, "Notes and Translations", in The Road Goes Ever On (J.R.R. Tolkien, Donald Swann)
** Thoughts on this wording? Signifying something deeper about Middle-earth, or about Frodo's journey? Or is it merely authorial similarity in speech or perceptions?
** Frodo's premonitions during Hall of Fire song I feel can almost be linked to his other true-dreams, considering that is the state he finds himself in: a waking dream, a very Elf-like state, fitting it seems for a guest in Rivendell...or is that state something more?
"At first the beauty of the melodies and of the interwoven words in elven-tongues, even though he understood them little, held him in a spell, as soon as as he began to attend to them. Almost it seemed that the words took shape, and visions of far lands and bright things that he had never yet imagined opened out before him; and the firelit hall became like a golden mist above the seas of foam that sighed upon the margins of the world. Then the enchantment became more and more dreamlike, until he felt that an endless river of swelling gold and silver was flowing over him, too multitudinous for its pattern to be comprehended; it became part of the throbbing air about him, and it drenched and drowned him. Swiftly he sank under its shining weight into a deep realm of sleep.
"There he wandered long in a dream of music that turned into running water, and then suddenly into a voice. It seemed to be the voice of Bilbo chanting verses. Faint at first then clearer ran the words.
"Earendil was a mariner..."
What are the deeper and linked meanings you see this semi-dream? How does it fit with the other (true) dreams of Frodo? And that it is Bilbo who, in a bit of reverse of fantastic hesitation (Thank you, BlackFox!) is indeed the chanter that he 'sounds like' and that Frodo awakens to?
** Bilbo's song of Earendil is a lovely alliterative piece; it is rather a discussion-in-itself (THAT sounds like a good Dog Days of Summer post!) What do you think of it? How do you see it relating, if it all, to the larger story of Middle-earth or specifically LOTR?
We have Aragorn inserting green piece, relation to Aragorn. Bilbo mistakenly calls it 'the emerald' on Earendil's breast. We have several sketched backgrounds for this Elfstone concept, both in where and when it was made and how it remains in Middle-earth.
Elfstone the 'green stone' of Bilbo's poem:
A green jewel set in silver wings that Galadriel gives as a token of hope and identity to Aragorn before the Fellowship leaves Lothlorien. The name 'Elessar' comes from the name of the jewel in the Quenya tongue; it was foretold by Olorin to be Aragorn's name one day.
There are a few versions of the Elfstone and its making/makers. I summarize here:
It was created in Gondolin by Enerdhil, described in UT as the greatest craftsman among the Noldor after the death of Feanor. It was a combination of the light of the sun and the green of growing things. Enerdhil gave it to Idril, and she to her son Earendil, whence it was known as the Stone of Earendil. Earendil took it with him to Valinor; but it was brought back by Gandalf to Galadriel as a token from Yavanna that the Valar had not forsaken Middle-earth - yet it was not to be hers forever, but was to be passed on to one who would come.
In another version, the original Elessar did not return to Middle-earth, but stayed with Earendil. Instead Celebrimor, grandson of Feanor, recreated it (because he knew Enerdhil in Gondolin and his craft, though he keeps this secret) in Eregion as a gift to Galadriel whom he loved when she lamented the withering of Middle-earth. After receiving Nenya she felt she needed the Elessar no more, and gave it to Celebrian and so to Arwen and then she to Aragorn.
But the last version listed (and Tolkien's final choice based on the 'Farewell to Lorien' chapter) does not mention Enerdhil at all. It is Celebrimbor himself who originally crafts the jewel in Gondolin which then sails into history with Earendil as Bilbo's poem states. Presumably in the same idea as above (as it again states he loved Galadriel), Celebrimbor then recreated the stone for Galadriel in Eregion. (We see the footprints of Feanor again...!)
All of the various tales have one thing in common: Galadriel ends up with the Elessar, in trust it seems.
In final form (whew!) she appears to give it to her daughter Celebrian, who in turn gives it to Arwen and then, presumably, back to Galadriel once Arwen and Aragorn's troth is plighted. Thus it serves as the closure of both Yavanna's and Olorin's words as well as blessing the potential union of Aragorn and Arwen (presumably an *if*: if he becomes what he is destined to be - the person of the Elessar).
** Do you see an underlying unity in the various ideas, or are they facets of different philosophical and historical notions? Which of the many ways that this idea was written seems the most effective way to describe the tradition of this stone and what it means to LOTR?
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 30 2015, 1:03am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 30 2015, 4:17pm
Post #2 of 9
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That wonderful rumbling rhyming scheme of Earendil. Apparently both unusual and very hard to do.
I believe that Tolkien adapted an earlier and much more frivolous poem called "Errantry" about a messenger who gets mightily distracted by side quests
I wonder - does this show both Bilbo's technical mastery as a poet t pull off something so difficult, but also his hobbit-ish lack of seriousness to adapt a silly subject to the grave matter of the epic quest of Elrond's famous ancestor? (Could it not be taken as ...disrespectful?)
The elves and other creatures of Errantry seem like the twee creations Tolkien decried in "On Faerie Stories". Might Tolkien be demonstrating how he'd moved on to more serious ideas about them?
~~~~~~
"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 30 2015, 4:24pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 31 2015, 10:01pm
Post #3 of 9
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That wonderful rumbling rhyming scheme of Earendil. Apparently both unusual and very hard to do. I believe that Tolkien adapted an earlier and much more frivolous poem called "Errantry" about a messenger who gets mightily distracted by side quests.
The elves and other creatures of Errantry seem like the twee creations Tolkien decried in "On Faerie Stories". Might Tolkien be demonstrating how he'd moved on to more serious ideas about them?
Yes, he discusses it in Letters a bit; 'trisyllabic assonances or near assonances'; he does indeed say it is very complex to do and in Errantry's case it just flowed out at once but was not easily repeatable (#133). I pair that complexity of metre along with the essential love of the name Earendil in my mind to the lovely bit that Bilbo recites. I agree, it definitely reflects advancing the import of the original subject matter. I think given the relatively established nature of his love of the word Earendil (1917-18 era) that it would get featured in a particularly singular, and also singularly inspired rhyming scheme. So it may be the uniting of two things held very dear to JRRT, and since that metre was so difficult it was 'gifted' to the character so high in esteem - to my mind, the name that started it all, and I wonder if the same might be said of JRRT.
I wonder - does this show both Bilbo's technical mastery as a poet to pull off something so difficult, but also his hobbit-ish lack of seriousness to adapt a silly subject to the grave matter of the epic quest of Elrond's famous ancestor? (Could it not be taken as ...disrespectful?)
Its a wonderful contrast, and in this case I wonder if it is that authorial confession sort of thing: because JRRT here gives Bilbo his best, artistically, and their best as it were is good enough for the House of Elrond so that means something.
Aragorn does say it is a bit cheeky! But I think even composing on Elrond's father would be accepted, IF the verse was sufficient in Art Value in itself. Which perhaps says something a out the Firstborn here, with Art being a sovereign form of expression?
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 31 2015, 10:08pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 1 2015, 11:36am
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I'm going to go ahead and make an assonance of myself....
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This was the chapter in the book I DIDN'T want to lead (so thanks Brethil for taking it on - you are braver then me!) especially because I didn't think I could say anything very intelligent about these poems. I'm sure other people can say intelligent things about them, but since they haven't turned up yet, perhaps I can help by saying some UNintellgent things about them, to see what happens.
In early readings, I tended to skim the poems for anything plot-relevant, but not read them. I'm sure others worked differently (perhaps it is similar to readers' different reactions to the first chapter of Book 1: we had an interesting discussion about who had found it a bit slow & who had begun to enjoy themselves immediately).
Imagine the plight of a reader in 1954, reading FOTR in the first year of it's publication. No appendices yet, next to nothing on Earendil - neither of these poems was going to make much sense. The elvish one at the end was obviously going to make no sense whatsoever, and a reader couldn't even be sure that he or she was pronouncing the words correctly, because a pronunciation guide was yet to be offered (at least I think that's right - if anyone has a 1st edition with support materials I don't realise exist, I'd be happy to hear!).
So it is ...audacious. I'm pretty sure I've read a number of writers who have gone for this effect but bungled it:
The same is true of constructed languages (also called conlangs). Famously, Tolkien invented Elves so that he would have someone to speak the languages he created. But again, so little of the work involved is actually visible on the surface of the story that writers following in Tolkiens footsteps are tempted to imitate the end result without understanding the years of foundational work behind it. This is not to say that conlangs are verboten in fantasy writing, merely that you have to be prepared to put a certain amount of work into it. Sarah Monette, Doing Tolkien Wrong: Why Fantasy Shouldnt Follow in Tolkiens Footsteps http://reflectionsedge.com/...-tolkiens-footsteps/
So maybe it works instead of being just pretentious because Tolkien is not just bluffing. Well of course on one level he is - elvish languages and Earendil's voyage are fictions, obviously - but it's real bluffing based on years of study (as Ms Monette points out) , not the fake bluffing of a jobbing author deciding to allude to some mysterious backstory to seem clever (without being clever.)
There was something I was missing until it finally occurred to me to read Earendil out loud to myself - the sounds. Never mind the meaning for now (the as yet only glimpsed backstory and the obscure English words): it sounds great.
That might, of course be the key to its successful reception at Rivendell. We aren't told whether the whole audience is fluent in the Common Tongue, or whether (like in Lorien) there are some who do not speak it well, or at all. But everyone would enjoy the rhythm and the sounds, I think.
The elvish hymn at the end reverses the situation of course - it is the sonic, and otherwise magical effects that Frodo appreciates (though he might be able to translate it, of course.)
Somehow, the effect (of complete "my eyes bounce off this" panic) the elvish poem causes me reminds me of a similar effect when I look at this:
Oer yw'r Eira ar Eryri, -o'ryw
Ar awyr i rewi;
Oer yw'r ia ar riw'r ri,
A'r Eira oer yw 'Ryri
O Ri y'Ryri yw'r oera, -o'r ar,
Ar oror wir arwa;
O'r awyr a yr Eira
O'i ryw i roi rew a'r ia
These strange Welsh 'Englynion' or stanzas consist entirely of vowels, except for only one consonant, the 'R' *. Borrow [George Borrow, a Victorian travel writer, linguist and fan of Welsh language and literature] liked to recite it to dazzle (or bore) his friends and fellow walkers by his command of the Welsh language.
http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artcit/caerwyddfa.htm
(which also offers a translation into English for those, like me who have yet to learn Welsh)
* (Y and W are, or can be, vowels in Welsh).
Just to finish by being irreverent and irrelevant as well as unintelligent, I wanted to point out that a microwave oven in Welsh is a popty ping , and that there's more where that came from http://www.walesonline.co.uk/...ords-phrases-6395952
But I'm sure Welsh was one of Prof Tolkien's favourite languages for far more lofty reasons...
~~~~~~
"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 1 2015, 12:14pm
Post #5 of 9
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You have the right of it. The Northern sagas that JRRT loved are all based on auditory alliteration and that rhythm that gets formed (especially, I find, with o- schemes, really drops the tone lower) becomes sort of self-perpetuating in its ease once you speak it aloud. Its very addictive I find to think of poems that way.
Different than post-theater European poetic forms that depend on the end-line or mid-line rhymes and not cadence. The theater rhyme schemes, intended to be spoken, I find also have an auditory tonal complexion... where as published ones for reading maybe not so much?
I skipped these in the first years reads as well. Now I savor them.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 12:14pm
Post #6 of 9
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Thoughts on this wording?
It is very much like Gildor's song.
Signifying something deeper about Middle-earth, or about Frodo's journey?
Tom Shippey thinks it does (both in The Road to Middle-earth and Author of the Century). I don't have either book with me here, so I can't summarise properly.
Or is it merely authorial similarity in speech or perceptions?
If Frodo is a sort of Eveyman, the authorial similarity is significant (like in Bunyan); otherwise, it is a sign of literary weakness.
It's your pick on how to read this; based on the number of posts you've made in the Reading Room, I suspect you prefer the first option. 
a waking dream, a very Elf-like state, fitting it seems for a guest in Rivendell...or is that state something more?
Are you insinuating they put something in his food?
What are the deeper and linked meanings you see this semi-dream?
"An endless river of swelling gold and silver"... that's Celeborn and Galadriel, isn't it? And the seas of foam hint at Amroth.
Does that work? It doesnt for me.
How does it fit with the other (true) dreams of Frodo?
It responds to an exterior stimulus, and is not a peronal vision.
And that it is Bilbo who, in a bit of reverse of fantastic hesitation (Thank you, BlackFox!) is indeed the chanter that he 'sounds like' and that Frodo awakens to?
Of course!
Dumb mortal - rions the soporific with his harsh verses.
What do you think of it?
Even after reading The Silmarillion, I can't really get all the allusions in it. So it seems like a poem from ancient times, which speaks on things the poet and audience knew (or were supposed to know), but we can't properly grasp.
Doubtlessly, this was a part of Tolkien's purpose.
How do you see it relating, if it all, to the larger story of Middle-earth or specifically LOTR?
It does, and very much so - but not in ways I can always decipher.
Do you see an underlying unity in the various ideas, or are they facets of different philosophical and historical notions?
Definitely of different notions. The first is a part of the elevation of Gandalf to something much larger than we know in LotR (a tendency in some of Tolkien's latter writings which I don't quite like), and also indicates that Galadriel's pardon was granted already, before her renounciation of power.
The second puts more of an emphasis on Galadriel's desires and wishes, and makes her giving the Evenstar to Aragorn another renounciation of power.
Which of the many ways that this idea was written seems the most effective way to describe the tradition of this stone and what it means to LOTR?
I prefer the second version by far, and actually discussed it in length here and here.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 11:51pm
Post #7 of 9
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A shadow and a thought has been growing in my mind...*UUT warning*
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...for a while, and I am taking this chance (which explains my awkward poking around for theories) while we have the Elfstone (rather cheekily and precipitately! But that's how UUTs go, you want to share them) up for discussion to air the idea. It has to do both with the Elfstone itself but in a large way with how the meanings attached to the Stone reflect on Galadriel.
I wonder here if Galadriel and Celebrimor paired with the Elessar in this context serve as a double (tri?)-conduit for the connection between the Trees themselves and the modern real-world-fantasy inheritance that JRRT had in his world view. By this I mean that they seem to form a syllogism. The poem's words made me think of it; the silver and gold is used to describe Galadriel's hair; and maybe somehow we can shoehorn we can take Celeborn into the equation to a lesser degree. But the primary silver and gold must, to me, be the Two Trees. That connection to Galadriel's hair, and thus roughly her person, was made in her youth, while the Trees still lived. So we have two silver and golds to take us from Valinor to Arda, one actual and one metaphorical: the Silmarils and the likeness of Galadriel to the light of the Trees. Then they are separated by the return journey to Middle-earth and the divide between Galadriel and Feanor.
The silver and gold metaphor can mean both Galadriel and Feanor's legacy, and I think it does. Therein lies the framework of the comparisons: a two-fold connection. We have Celebrimor descended from Feanor the Silmaril-maker, and like his grandfather there is his unrequited love of Galadriel. Celebrimor also sought to rival Feanor in other ways such as skill, at least in this UT conception:
'But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fanor.'
(UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn)
So we have a set of lines connecting Feanor, Celebrimor and Galadriel. And out of the same unrequited love for Galadriel as Feanor had the Elfstone comes into being: that seems a consistent factor in the tales where Celebrimor is utilized versus Enerdhil. And I might venture to guess that THAT is the main reason for the change and the elimination of Enerdhil: to maintain the historical connection that Feanor ---> Celebrimor ---> Galadriel ----> Arwen and Aragorn ---> modern day preserves.
This whole equation gives to my mind a new construct for Galadriel's purpose in the story framework. Some retrofitting would have been needed to make the appropriate character changes to FULLY encompass this, and I think we see them as the years and re-workings of her back history are crafted. The push to have Galadriel become even more of a sainted figure (and further removed from Feanor) versus that early Amazon-elf-maid that defied the Valar in the footsteps of Feanor (if not ever in the same mind) makes sense if she is to be the earthly connection between Valinor, Earendil - who I think is a relative saint in the legendarium - and Men.
The desire for Aragorn to have the green gem reflected in Bilbo's rhyme *I think* carries the same message. The pairing of the First Age and the gem inspired by and in the same bloodline as the hand that made the Silmarils is accomplished in the two-stone story, where the stone exists both in the heavens and on earth. Thus maybe the relative moral purity of Galadriel becomes more paramount for this rather sacred connection. And one can note that once the living embodiment of Silver and Gold has a hand in the legacy of Feanor, the crafter of silver and gold, its almost as if that rift is sealed once again in the closest way it could be with the loss of the Silmarils in Arda.
And I agree: as written the intent of Galadriel to hand over the Elfstone likely ties into her humility, wisdom and thus redemption for the earlier events - no matter how they are depicted there is the implied fall (so crucial to important tales) and then subsequent rise.
So...for whatever its worth.... 
And thank you for the discussion links, Sador!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 2 2015, 11:57pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 3 2015, 5:28pm
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"Up woke Elven-man, began upon his singing...."
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Up woke Willow-man, began upon his singing,
sang Tom fast asleep under branches swinging;
in a crack caught him tight: snick! it closed together,
trapped Tom Bombadil, coat and hat and feather.
-The Adventures of Tom Bombadil
** Thoughts on this wording?
Very nice kennings: Starkindler, star-host, tree-tangled, and middle-lands. Not to mention Elbereth (Star-queen) and Fanuilos (Ever-white), though you might get some argument about whether the last is a true kenning.
Signifying something deeper about Middle-earth,.
One might suspect the culture of not just the Rohirrim but that of the Elves was Anglo-Saxon based.
or about Frodo's journey?
The Sindarin version is in iambic tetrameter, most commonly used for old English and Scottish heroic ballads. (After all, LOTR is heroic fantasy!) The meters rhythm (da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM) fits the natural gait of a human (or Elf, or hobbit) as he/she walks, so its a very apt literary onomatopoeia portraying the journey of the Nine Walkers. The meter also matches the beat of the heart, and it is the strength of the heart, not the strength of arms or the strength of wisdom, that will lead to the success of the RingQuest.
Or is it merely authorial similarity in speech or perceptions?
That too.
** Frodo's premonitions during Hall of Fire song I feel can almost be linked to his other true-dreams, considering that is the state he finds himself in: a waking dream, a very Elf-like state, fitting it seems for a guest in Rivendell...
There is sweet music here that softer falls
Than petals from blown roses on the grass,
Or night-dews on still waters between walls
Of shadowy granite, in a gleaming pass;
Music that gentlier on the spirit lies,
Than tir'd eyelids upon tir'd eyes;
Music that brings sweet sleep down from the blissful skies.
Here are cool mosses deep,
And thro' the moss the ivies creep,
And in the stream the long-leaved flowers weep,
And from the craggy ledge the poppy hangs in sleep.
-Alfred, Lord Tennyson, The Lotos-eaters
One wonders if there are other "guests" stuck away in the attics of Rivendell, forever lost in sleep.
... or is that state something more?
They gave themselves up to the spell and fell fast asleep at the foot of the great grey willow.
-The Old Forest
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
What are the deeper and linked meanings you see this semi-dream?
At first the beauty of the melodies and of the interwoven words in elven-tongues, even though he understood them little, held him in a spell, as soon as as he began to attend to them.
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said A diversion.
-Barely Started Tales
Almost it seemed that the words took shape, and visions of far lands and bright things that he had never yet imagined opened out before him;
Thats where hes bound, alright.
Then the enchantment became more and more dreamlike, until he felt that an endless river of swelling gold and silver was flowing over him, too multitudinous for its pattern to be comprehended; it became part of the throbbing air about him, and it drenched and drowned him. Swiftly he sank under its shining weight into a deep realm of sleep.
The silver and gold surround him and penetrate him and bind the galaxy together Er, wait.... Anyway, the silver and gold that flow around him, and eventually drench and drown him, would seem to be the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, silver Telperion and golden Laurelin. Of course when he is drowned by the silver and gold he is a vessel for the combined light, a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.
How does it fit with the other (true) dreams of Frodo?
Pretty well, especially since its based on Gandalfs musings. More evidence that the wizard and the hobbit are telepathically linked.
And that it is Bilbo who, in a bit of reverse of fantastic hesitation (Thank you, BlackFox!) is indeed the chanter that he 'sounds like' and that Frodo awakens to?
It was Bilbo and his tales that awoke Frodo to the outside world. Its apt that its Bilbo and his heroic poem that reawakens him to it.
** Bilbo's song of Earendil is a lovely alliterative piece;
Note the frequent use of sibilance. It onomatopoeically evokes the sound of the sea. That is, you can hear the waves crash on the shore, and hear the bow of Erendils ship plow through the sea.
it is rather a discussion-in-itself (THAT sounds like a good Dog Days of Summer post!) What do you think of it?
Very nice. Im struck by the paucity of kennings, and, assuming that such are indeed peculiarly Elvish (and Rohirric), their lack clearly indicates that this is a hobbit's work; that is, Bilbo indeed wrote it himself. The poem is in iambic tetrameter. Such is apt for a long poem about a journey because the meters rhythm is brisk, so the poem moves along nicely, keeping the audiences attention. No wonder the Elven audience was ready for a second reading!
How do you see it relating, if it all, to the larger story of Middle-earth or specifically LOTR?
LOTR is a prose poem about a journey, and due to Tolkiens word mastery it moves along briskly. Too briskly in fact. As the good Professor himself said:
The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short.
-Forward to the Second Edition
Like the Elves in the Hall of Fire with Bilbo's tale, when Tolkien finishes his, we are ready for another reading.
A green jewel set in silver wings that Galadriel gives as a token of hope and identity to Aragorn before the Fellowship leaves Lothlorien. The name 'Elessar' comes from the name of the jewel in the Quenya tongue; it was foretold by Olorin to be Aragorn's name one day.
Foretold, my Aunt Bernice! Obviously Aragorns destiny was set up by a certain conniving grey wizard!
** Do you see an underlying unity in the various ideas,
Filmmaking 101: Keep It Simple Stupid.
or are they facets of different philosophical and historical notions?
Youd be surprised how time simplifies philosophical and historical notions. It simplifies languages too, as philologist Tolkien well knew.
Which of the many ways that this idea was written seems the most effective way to describe the tradition of this stone and what it means to LOTR?
KISS. Its not the complex Elves with their long and rich history spanning three ages that will matter in the end, but the simple hobbits. As Gandalf said:
'Hobbits really are amazing creatures, as I have said before. You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch.'
-The Shadow of the Past
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 3 2015, 5:39pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 4 2015, 1:27am
Post #9 of 9
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Then the enchantment became more and more dreamlike, until he felt that an endless river of swelling gold and silver was flowing over him, too multitudinous for its pattern to be comprehended; it became part of the throbbing air about him, and it drenched and drowned him. Swiftly he sank under its shining weight into a deep realm of sleep. The silver and gold surround him and penetrate him and bind the galaxy together Er, wait.... Anyway, the silver and gold that flow around him, and eventually drench and drown him, would seem to be the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, silver Telperion and golden Laurelin. Of course when he is drowned by the silver and gold he is a vessel for the combined light, a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.
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