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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 1 2015, 11:11pm
Post #52 of 61
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If you read TH first, what was your reaction to revisiting this key spot on the map? I was surprised to find out that Elrond was not a Man but an Elf. For example, isnt an elf being called an elf-friend rather redundant? And similarly why mention that he was as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord if he was in fact already an elf-lord? I read LOTR first, so I was primed. But if you read TH first, its the conclusion I would have come to as well. I'm also intrigued by this event as to whether it can it be seen as a limit to what external healing, even the most powerful in Middle-earth, can accomplish? No doubt 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien would have seen men with similar wounds during his stays in hospital and his visits to medical boards. I wonder if the good Professor would have thought it a bit presumptuous to tell a tale where such awful suffering could be so blithely cured.
Yuppo. I concur. As in Arda's own case.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 10:48am
Post #54 of 61
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Authorial tactic, ort authorial tact?
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What did you think of the tactic of the delayed meeting between Bilbo and Frodo? Or for that matter, the suspense of the mysterious 'friend of Bilbo' who will be revealed as Strider/Aragorn?
Both serve to show that Bilbo is no longer a typical hobbit. Not going for banquets, indeed!
And they are also a tactful hint that after his journey Frodo won;t be one, either.
Frodo meets Bilbo again; and here I wonder if JRRT was planting another seed of failure, as shown by Bilbo's continued desire for the Ring.
Not necessarily.
For one thing, there is a vast difference between fighting a constant temptation, and screwing oneself up for one heroic effort (which is why I disagree with JRRT in later letters that the Quest was impossible) - and here Bilbo is only asking to see it!
And tomorrow, he will see it, and be apparently unscathed.
So ignoring the movies' version (despite Ian Holm being my favourite actor of the cast), I go with Darkstone's suggestion that the change is not in Bilbo, but in Frodo.
And that surely is another seed of failure.
Or is that picture of Bilbo, that desire in Bilbo for the Ring a foreshadowing of the desire that will lead Frodo to fail at the Fire?
See above.
Or do you think it is a necessary ramping up of the danger for Frodo as seen through Bilbo?
No; as seen through his own perception of Bilbo.
Like with Sam in the tower of Cirith Ungol - which nobody reads as an indication of Sam's own reluctance to give the Ring back (although that is stated in the book)
I think its interesting that in this chapter Frodo is seen and described as strong by Gandalf; a contrast to the very weakness for the Ring that seems to still run in Bilbo? Or a literary tool, tension needed build-up to the eventual fall of Frodo?
But Frodo is strong, incredibly so - otherwise he wouldn't have gotten so far.
Despite what I've written above - Frodo has already passed through far more than Bilbo, in terms of temptation. Bilbo's temptation was centered on a different object - on the Arkenstone.
I wonder if, as readers, Aragorn's high regard for Bilbo changes impression of rather fussy The Hobbit version of Bilbo to us - the reader - when we get to this part?
Not at all. Why so? He is friendly, but actually seems patronising and condescending with the whole Earendil poem.
Now Elrond and Gandalf's reactions to Bilbo's offer in the next chapter, is a different matter altogether.
Within the story itself, does this grim and tough, 'remnant of a great people' warrior's affection and respect for the old Hobbit change how Frodo sees Bilbo?
Again, I tend to agree with Darkstone - it speaks more in favour of Aragorn (if it does) than of Bilbo, whom we already know and love.
On the other hand, I didn't like the attribution to Bilbo of the All that is gold poem. There are other poets, you know.
I'm sure that had he been able to, Bilbo would appropriate half of Malbeth the Seer's prophecies.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 2 2015, 8:16pm
Post #55 of 61
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What did you think of the tactic of the delayed meeting between Bilbo and Frodo? Or for that matter, the suspense of the mysterious 'friend of Bilbo' who will be revealed as Strider/Aragorn?
Both serve to show that Bilbo is no longer a typical hobbit. Not going for banquets, indeed!
And they are also a tactful hint that after his journey Frodo won;t be one, either.
Indeed, poetry over food! Quite the change for the Elvish in Bilbo. That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for here, discussion-wise; the seeding of Frodo's potential change in what we see of Rivendell, post-Ring Bilbo.
Frodo meets Bilbo again; and here I wonder if JRRT was planting another seed of failure, as shown by Bilbo's continued desire for the Ring.
Not necessarily.
For one thing, there is a vast difference between fighting a constant temptation, and screwing oneself up for one heroic effort (which is why I disagree with JRRT in later letters that the Quest was impossible) - and here Bilbo is only asking to see it! And tomorrow, he will see it, and be apparently unscathed.
So ignoring the movies' version (despite Ian Holm being my favourite actor of the cast), I go with Darkstone's suggestion that the change is not in Bilbo, but in Frodo.
And that surely is another seed of failure. Another great inversion from the more obvious equation. I see that a lot in this chapter particularly. Potentially because we are learning so much about characters without exposition; as NoWiz said earlier, we have been shown a lot here - in the context of interactions - versus being told. I wonder if, as readers, Aragorn's high regard for Bilbo changes impression of rather fussy The Hobbit version of Bilbo to us - the reader - when we get to this part? Not at all. Why so? He is friendly, but actually seems patronising and condescending with the whole Earendil poem.
Now Elrond and Gandalf's reactions to Bilbo's offer in the next chapter, is a different matter altogether. Ah, maybe just reaction, but I get rather a different feel for that section. Yes, agreed; in the next chapter I could (happily) add Gloin as well to the list of how we see Bilbo esteemed through others' eyes. On the other hand, I didn't like the attribution to Bilbo of the All that is gold poem. There are other poets, you know.
I'm sure that had he been able to, Bilbo would appropriate half of Malbeth the Seer's prophecies.
**  **
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 12:04pm
Post #56 of 61
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Bony creatures... in film and in writing
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[when Frodo shows Bilbo the Ring]
So ignoring the movies' version (despite Ian Holm being my favourite actor of the cast), I go with Darkstone's suggestion that the change is not in Bilbo, but in Frodo.
And that surely is another seed of failure.
I was thinking that this is an interesting difference between film and book as media (or at least a difference in how I respond to them as a reader or viewer).
In the book, it is not clear whether Bilbo does transform, whether the music does falter around them etc. Do these things objectively happen, or are they Frodo's subjective experience? What would a third-party observer have seen? We're not told, and can read it either way. This is part of the power of the writing, I think.
In the film, the Bilbo jump-scare works very well, but I jump to the conclusion that something really did happen to Bilbo - and his immediate tearful reaction supports that.
But, I am thinking now, this interpretation is partly because it is so easy to assume the camera makes us that third-party objective observer in the room.
There is nothing, I suppose to stop a viewer thinking they are seeing the scene through Frodo's eyes, and Bilbo's grief is because of what he saw in Frodo's face..
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 1:03pm
Post #57 of 61
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There's nothing to start a viewer thinking that way, more importantly.
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Technically, you're right that a viewer might assume that Bilbo's horrific transformation in the film is seen only by Frodo. But has any viewer so assumed? You didn't. I didn't. And we'd read the book. Those who hadn't read the book certainly didn't.
Everything about the way the scene is filmed conveys that, as you put it, Bilbo's demon moment really happens, or at least is perceived the same way by Frodo and by a 3rd-party viewer which the camera represents. Jackson, for all his versatility and talent, often reverted to his roots in horror cinema in making LotR, this being a prime example. To follow Tolkien's lead, in particular the author's preference for indistinct but suggestive "seeming" moments, he would have been better advised to study the techniques of suspense, uncertainty, and multiple points of view.
For instance, for all its over-the-top qualities, 'nuclear Galadriel' is far easier than this scene of Bilbo's to interpret as being a spiritual vision by Frodo (and the viewer) rather than a literal transformation.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 2:05pm
Post #58 of 61
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I certainly agree: everything in the film invites you to interpret the "Bilbo jump scare" as signifying that the Ring still does something unpleasant to Bilbo.
I think I was trying to make two related points here, and probably made neither of them well.
One point was that cinema might be a more literal medium than writing. I'm trying to think now how a director might film this if he or she wanted to push us to th he conclusion that we are seeing something subjective to Frodo. I can't think of a cinematic convention for doing that (something equivalent to the echo effect that used to be used to show that a character was thinking certain lines, perhaps?)
The other point is that it is a possible reading - and maybe the one that the New Line script writing team choose - that Frodo is seeing something about Bilbo which is true in some way.
I do agree, as well: the temptation to startle the viewers might have had as big an effect on the choices made here as any deep thought about representing exactly what Tolkien meant by this passage. And the end result in the film is certainly memorable!
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"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 3:16pm
Post #59 of 61
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Bilbo's continued desire for the Ring
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....must be reasonably under control: we read that he's often been at Frodo's bedside as Frodo recovered. And the Ring, presumably was on its chain around Frodo's neck. Even if it wasn't in Bilbo's sight there, Bilboknew full well that Frodo had it. Yet Bilbo didn't make any attempt to get it, as far as we hear.
That's affecting my interpretation of what we see, from Frodo's point of view, when he does show Bilbo the Ring. It's possible to see that as either paralleling the Mirror of Galadriel, or as paralleling the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
If it parallels Galadriel, then Frodo has a vision of Bilbo as aGollum-like creatures, and this is a true insight that Bilbo will never completely recover (just as he, but not Sam, can see the Ring in Galadriel's hand, and has understood a lot more of her thoughts).
If it parallels Cirith Ungol, Frodo is seeing Bilbo as a monster is an illusion: a way of realising how much he does not want to give the Ring back. The parallel is with Frodo behaving furiously to poor Sam when Sam reveals he has got the Ring).
"Why choose?," of course! But I agree it is about Frodo's classification by the Ring, as well as being about Bilbo's.
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 3 2015, 3:31pm
Post #60 of 61
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Excellent delineation of the perception options, Furincurunir
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That's affecting my interpretation of what we see, from Frodo's point of view, when he does show Bilbo the Ring. It's possible to see that as either paralleling the Mirror of Galadriel, or as paralleling the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
If it parallels Galadriel, then Frodo has a vision of Bilbo as aGollum-like creatures, and this is a true insight that Bilbo will never completely recover (just as he, but not Sam, can see the Ring in Galadriel's hand, and has understood a lot more of her thoughts).
If it parallels Cirith Ungol, Frodo is seeing Bilbo as a monster is an illusion: a way of realising how much he does not want to give the Ring back. The parallel is with Frodo behaving furiously to poor Sam when Sam reveals he has got the Ring).
"Why choose?," of course! But I agree it is about Frodo's classification by the Ring, as well as being about Bilbo's.
And they can both be true and valid. Especially given the time framing: at the Mirror Frodo is still in the earlier days of bearing the Ring and may have more insight into The Way Things Actually Are: so indeed, Bilbo is still Good People but changed forever. And later at Cirith Ungol when the power of the Ring is more fell and his world view has collapsed a bit (to be just Me and My Ring) all that matters is the desire to have it, not share it, and by then we see his world view, represented by Sam, is indeed distorted.
In which case, bringing us back to Rivendell and even earlier than the Mirror, and using the same logic: is this incident with Bilbo an insight of Frodo's of the other plane, as it were, and a valid moment of clarity? Bilbo's reaction to Frodo is based on Bilbo looking at Frodo's face: thus the emotions of disgust and likely fear of losing the Ring were there and utterly and quickly comprehensible by Bilbo - which is an interesting insight in itself.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 3 2015, 6:44pm
Post #61 of 61
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"Why choose?," of course! But I agree it is about Frodo's classification by the Ring, as well as being about Bilbo's.
Indeed!
In the film we can see Bilbo's transformation as being in Frodo's mind and thus demonstrating the ring's effect on Frodo.
But we can also see Bilbo's lurching grab at the ring as demonstrating its effect on Bilbo.
So Jackson is not quite as oblivious to the ambiguities as some would have us think.
(And that, I think, is the reason why Faramir's vision of Frodo as a similar corrupted figure at Henneth Annūn in the film was ultimately discarded: Jackson felt it might imply the ring had a corrupting effect on Faramir.)
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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