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** Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two chapter discussion ** 'Many Meetings' **
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Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 12:38am

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** Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two chapter discussion ** 'Many Meetings' ** Can't Post

Welcome, Fellowship of the Room, to this weeks discussion of Fellowship of the Ring, where we begin Book II, and visit one of the many places of renewal in the journey. Inherited Ring-Holder yet not quite Ring-Bearer, Frodo awakens at Rivendell...





Gandalf and his Thoughts




We get more internal thoughts of Gandalf here, and some of them are I think fairly important in both a substitute-narrator utility as well as providing arcane and thematic information to the reader both directly from Gandalf's mind and inferred by statements.




** Gandalf says something very intriguing and puzzling as Frodo wakes, that I would like to explore: when they discuss the 'absurd' journey so far and Gandalf states that he was delayed: "...and that nearly proved our ruin. And yet I am not sure: it may have been better so."


Our Gandalf, speaking in riddles; no surprise there. But what meaning do you take from this?






** Another point in Gandalf's mind I find intriguing: the idea of transparency about Frodo. Gandalf thinks to himself (and we are not often privy to his thoughts; so I wonder if we may take this as very close to authorial thought): "He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."


Verlyn Flieger beautifully writes in 'Splintered Light' that this description is a metaphor for Frodo's transformation through the Quest, and likens it to the Phial of Galadriel that he will be given to aid him (an excerpt is linked here from Google Books to illustrate:)



Splintered Light: Logos and Language in Tolkien's World. "Filled with clear light" chapter excerpt.



What are your ideas here? Is this an explanation for Gandalf's thoughts? Or are they speculative of another outcome, another line of thought by Gandalf and/or JRRT? Maybe relating to the consequential unity or disunity of hroa and fea based on outcomes - or do you see another line of thought entirely from those words?









** Gandalf and Pippin have an interesting dynamic through the entire story; it comes into play here on porch at Rivendell, where Gandalf is trying to rein in the openhearted but sometimes silly nature of Pippin's. What is your reaction to this early interplay between these two characters?















Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 12:42am

Post #2 of 61 (5041 views)
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Elrond as Healer, The Banquet Scene and Other Meanings [In reply to] Can't Post

Here we meet Lord Elrond again, after that introduction in TH. Here he is a mighty healer, and the Last Homely House has a different feel to it: no tra-la-lally here. Instead we have a view of the regal, the artistic , the otherwordly Elves much more in line with the Silmarillion depictions.




** How well (or not) do you feel the melding of the two Rivendells is carried out? If you read TH first, what was your reaction to revisiting this key spot on the map?



** Let's discuss the shard removal. I'm interested as to your take on this: is this a surgical fix versus a spiritual fix? It is never made entirely clear - we simply hear that Elrond has worked four nights and three days on it - but we can discuss how your reader-reaction sees it as well as putting clues together from the text. It may not be a solvable equation, but I find it a fun one to speculate about. So is Elrond the Surgeon General of Middle-earth, or is this a manipluation of fea and hroa to remove that tangible bit of evil from Frodo?
I'm also intrigued by this event as to whether it can it be seen as a limit to what external healing, even the most powerful in Middle-earth, can accomplish? The piece of extant, physical evil can be removed; but what about the darkness in a soul, such as what is left by the wound or by what claims Frodo on Mount Doom, and afterwards? Thoughts?








** The banquet: a flashback it seems to Medieval type celebrations involving royalty. Like the Arwen under the canopy idea: it strikes me almost ecclesiatically versus royal, like Charles II or Henry V having a feast. I wonder here if the motif was designed to link to real-world royalty of the past. Thoughts? And for some more banquet details and their meanings to consider...


Frodo on his cushions? Hobbit party sitting separately?


A Dwarf present at the High banquet (gasp!)? Aragorn absent?


Anything else?














Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 12:44am

Post #3 of 61 (5028 views)
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Frodo and Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

  
Frodo meeting Bilbo again gets a suspenseful buildup as Frodo awakens and begins to see Rivendell. The relationship of the two Hobbit Ringbearers gets its most intimate view here, as they sit together after the Banquet.




** What did you think of the tactic of the delayed meeting between Bilbo and Frodo? Or for that matter, the suspense of the mysterious 'friend of Bilbo' who will be revealed as Strider/Aragorn?



** Frodo meets Bilbo again; and here I wonder if JRRT was planting another seed of failure, as shown by Bilbo's continued desire for the Ring. We are given so many similarities between Bilbo and Frodo, such as Their Birthday, which can perhaps be seen as an early mechanism to blend TH and LOTR. Or is that picture of Bilbo, that desire in Bilbo for the Ring a foreshadowing of the desire that will lead Frodo to fail at the Fire?
Or do you think it is a necessary ramping up of the danger for Frodo as seen through Bilbo?
I think its interesting that in this chapter Frodo is seen and described as strong by Gandalf; a contrast to the very weakness for the Ring that seems to still run in Bilbo? Or a literary tool, tension needed build-up to the eventual fall of Frodo?





** I wonder if, as readers, Aragorn's high regard for Bilbo changes impression of rather fussy The Hobbit version of Bilbo to us - the reader - when we get to this part? Within the story itself, does this grim and tough, 'remnant of a great people' warrior's affection and respect for the old Hobbit change how Frodo sees Bilbo?









(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 30 2015, 12:44am)


sador
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 7:08am

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Back in business [In reply to] Can't Post

Our Gandalf, speaking in riddles; no surprise there. But what meaning do you take from this?
Well, this is a recurring motif in the book. Just consider the whole trekk through Ithilien and along the Morgai, to the suthren end of Udun - about a month to cross a mountain range. And were there really no ways, like there was Cirith Ungol? Maybe.
But during that month, Saruman and the Witch-king were overthrown, Aragorn had challanged Sauron and Mordor was nearly emptied. So yes, it is possible that Frodo and Sam might have found a path into Mordor - and ended there and then. One must take the author (or the Author, if you know what I mean) on trust.

Same here. For one thing, the riddle is not difficult to unravel - it is clear that the unmasking of Saruman's treason is critical. The only thing is that Frodo and the readers have to wait for one more chapter.
But thinking deeper, if not for the delay - Frodo would not have met Aragorn and bonded with him this way (whatever effect that might have had, which is unclear) nor Gildor (and I have argued that Gildor's blessing was very important), and Merry would never have acquired the barrow-blade - I assume Elrond must have inspected it and realised what it was, which would account for his willingness to send Merry along with Frodo when he wanted to discard Pippin.
And most importantly, the Riders have been drawn to the Ford and been incapacitated. It would not do - neither for the Quest, nor for the innocent inhabitants of Eriador - to have them at large in the North, would it?


What are your ideas here? Is this an explanation for Gandalf's thoughts?
That's a nice idea, which I haven't thought of. Perhaps.
(Assuming you refer to your previous question here)

Or are they speculative of another outcome, another line of thought by Gandalf and/or JRRT?
I don't know. But I find it Curious that prof. Fleiger did not mention that Sam also gets to see the inner Frodo:

Quote
Sam looked at him….He was reminded suddenly of Frodo as he had lain, asleep in the house of Elrond, after his deadly wound. Then as he kept watch Sam had noticed that at times a light seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and stronger….but it (Frodo’s face) looked old, old and beautiful, as if the chiselling of the shaping years was now revealed in many fine lines that had before been hidden, though the identity of the face was not changed. Not that Sam Gamgee put it that way to himself. He shook his head, as if finding words useless, and murmured: ‘I love him. He’s like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.'


- Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

Which actually says a lot about Sam's journey, and growth; but that's not our subject at present.

And for another off-topic thought - I tend to read a different meaning in the Phial of Galadriel.

Maybe relating to the consequential unity or disunity of hroa and fea based on outcomes - or do you see another line of thought entirely from those words?
I'd rather not superimpose LACE on this story.

Or at least, not in this direction; it could be that Frodo's travails, ands transfiguration through them, prompted JRRT to think deeply on the fea-hroa dichotomy in his imagined world. But there are many other possible factors to that.

Gandalf and Pippin have an interesting dynamic through the entire story; it comes into play here on porch at Rivendell, where Gandalf is trying to rein in the openhearted but sometimes silly nature of Pippin's. What is your reaction to this early interplay between these two characters?
That is an important observation.
At the present, it seems a if Gandalf is a schoolmaster - and a good one, as Tolkien would see it: he could be scolding and severe, but he inspires trust and affection.


sador
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 9:36am

Post #5 of 61 (5009 views)
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Nothing can heal a hobbit as fully as a feast. [In reply to] Can't Post

How well (or not) do you feel the melding of the two Rivendells is carried out?
Elrond was never seen to be as silly as the tra-la-lally elves. So I don't see any problem with the portrayal of him.
And we don't get to see much of the other fellows. Lindir, perhaps - and he isn't that exalted. Snobby and condescending, yes; but so was Saeros.

If you read TH first, what was your reaction to revisiting this key spot on the map?
I was already puzzled by the map, and the disconnect between it and the events in The Hobbit - I tried to place them, and failed.

I think the point about Rivendell is the payoff for the expectation built in Book I, rather than the echo of The Hobbit.

Let's discuss the shard removal. I'm interested as to your take on this: is this a surgical fix versus a spiritual fix?

Need we go there? I guess it is a bit of both.

So is Elrond the Surgeon General of Middle-earth, or is this a manipluation of fea and hroa to remove that tangible bit of evil from Frodo?
Yes, he is the Surgeon General - whether he specializes in the natural of spiritual sides of medicine. I would say both.
Is it science, knowledge of magic, the blood of Melian, or the power of Vilya? I don't know, and personally don't have any meaningful speculation.

I'm also intrigued by this event as to whether it can it be seen as a limit to what external healing, even the most powerful in Middle-earth, can accomplish?

Some wounds can never be healed completey. Not even by the Valar (as with the Trees).

The piece of extant, physical evil can be removed; but what about the darkness in a soul, such as what is left by the wound or by what claims Frodo on Mount Doom, and afterwards? Thoughts?
For one thing, Elrond didn't operate on that. It was done by the far less skilled Aragorn.
But I've answered your question above.

Like the Arwen under the canopy idea: it strikes me almost ecclesiatically versus royal, like Charles II or Henry V having a feast. I wonder here if the motif was designed to link to real-world royalty of the past. Thoughts?

I would connect it more readily to the feast in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. But I will need to re-read that book to answer properly.

Frodo on his cushions?
A bit of comic relief, isn't it? I hope they put a drink at his elbow!

Hobbit party sitting separately?
We can't let all the goodies disappear from the central table too soon, can we?

A Dwarf present at the High banquet (gasp!)?

Why not?
I did chuckle at Alveric's janitor song, but I wouldn't take it too seriously. I'm sure the dwarves behave themselves perfectly - possibly better, or at least more formally, than the elves themselves.

Aragorn absent?
He gave his excuse later in this chapter. You may think of it whatever you choose...

Anything else?

No description of the food?
Then don't blame me if I quote the BotR description:

Quote
As with most mythical creatures who live in enchanted forests with no visible means of support, the elves ate rather frugally, and Frito was a little disappointed to find heaped on his plate a small mound of ground nuts, bark, and dirt.




noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 2:58pm

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and that nearly proved our ruin. And yet I am not sure: it may have been better so [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I agree with Sador - Saruman has unmasked himself too soon (too soon to be involved in the Council of Elrond, or to cause delay or confusion while his help is sought, or to propose that Orthanc is the obvious next waypoint on the Ring's journey for example). And that's a good thing.

Nor did Gandalf make the easy mistake of returning to Hobbiton when he got Radagast's message and taking Frodo immediately to Saruman for advice and help. That might have gone badly.

Also, Frodo has been forced to fend for himself - or at least sometimes for himself and sometimes assisted by a series of pick-up guides and helpers - and that might stand him and his hobbit friends in good stead if they should have to fend for himself in future.

And possibly Frodo's survival of his "absurd adventures" re-inforces Gandalf's hunch that Frodo is "meant to have the Ring"


Lastly, Gandalf might also be thinking of the whole timing of the Ring's flight. Had he returned to Hobbiton & routed out Frodo for an immediate dash to Rivendell, they would have arrived - what - about a month after midsummmer? And in that case, they probably they would already be gone onwards again. We readers do not know at this point - but perhaps Gandalf does know - that other travellers have been arriving at Rivendell. Gloin (and by extension Gimli) for sure, Legolas perhaps. Gandalf and Elrond might be already be thinking that there is more than chance to these rendezvous. Elrond will shortly be citing this unlikely gathering of people as the basis of authority of his Council to decide what to with the Ring (a claim that I'm all set to discuss when I take the chair for that chapter). So maybe Frodo is neither late nor early, but right on time to make possible the Council of Elrond?

Oh that wasn't "lastly" after all - I agree with Sador that its a bit of a theme in LOTR that things that appear to have gone badly might later turn out to have been for the best...

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 3:20pm

Post #7 of 61 (4980 views)
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The Elrond ICU [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's completely understandable that Frodo's medical drama is made as dramatic as possible - why spoil the fun by having him easily fixed up with a couple of elvish aspirin? So instead, he only just reaches Elrond's Intensive Care Unit in time; the initial surgery is incomplete and failure to spot the last foreign body nearly causes the patient's demise. It's touch and go for some time before the patient stabilizes. Enough implied events for an episode in the Elvish version of House, all reported so quickly in retrospect.


I like how we get some bizarre details - the extracted splinter must be melted (I've no idea why that would be, but nor do I need one, it sounds completely appropriate!)

It's probably also an important opportunity to see the extent of Sam's devotion to Frodo. Frodo's going to need that, where he's going.

And we have an important theme here - unlike many a fairytale, you can't necessarily go back home again with no bad consequences from your adventure. There is in this story a lot of thought about the costs of victory.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 4:05pm

Post #8 of 61 (4979 views)
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Arwen's Introduction - very clever! [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's her entrance:


Quote
So it was that Frodo saw her whom few mortals had yet seen; Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Lúthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undómiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people. Long she had been in the land of her mother's kin, in Lórien beyond the mountains, and was but lately returned to Rivendell to her father's house. But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry: for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs.


This is so well done!
As Hammond & Scull point out

Quote
"This seems to be an 'editorial' comment by someone looking back from the time when Arwen lived among mortals as Queen of Gondor and wife of King Elessar (Aragorn)

The Lord of the RIngs , A Reader's Companion, WG Hammond & C Scull (discussion of Many meetings)


This sight remove from the current action is beautifully subtle. It also packs in a lot of information about Arwen, her mother and their folk, a place called Lórien, and even about Arwen's brothers. It thus enables us readers to be told a lot of stuff about Arwen that Frodo couldn't possibly know in the moment, without the clumsiness of him having to ask someone.

For that matter, the subtlety continues later as Frodo leaves the party. But there I think we get more of a Frodo's own - 'what the heck is going on?' point of view:


Quote

...…Frodo halted for a moment, looking back. Elrond was in his chair and the fire was on his face like summer-light upon the trees. Near him sat the Lady Arwen. To his surprise Frodo saw that Aragorn stood beside her; his dark cloak was thrown back, and he seemed to be clad in elven-mail, and a star shone on his breast. They spoke together, and then suddenly it seemed to Frodo that Arwen turned towards him, and the light of her eyes fell on him from afar and pierced his heart.
He stood still enchanted, while the sweet syllables of the elvish song fell like clear jewels of blended word and melody. …


Clever, eh - leaves us wondering, for example
"What is that old hobo Strider doing dressed up like an elf-lord?"
"Is Frodo surprised only at that, or also that Strider is chatting with this very cloistered elf-princess"?

It sets up, shall we say, a few things about Aragorn for the next chapter.

I'm also trying (& failing) to remember when in my first reading I realised that Arwen was Aragorn's girlfriend*... An attentive reader might get it from this section and hints earlier, I suppose. I didn't (though I was only about 11 years old then, & the whole girlfriend idea was still a bit 'ewww').

As a (slightly) more mature person, I also can imagine why Arwen & Aragorn might be discussing Frodo, and why it's quite touching to have that brought to my attention as a reader...


--

*"Aragorn's girlfriend", not "Aragorn's Frigidaire", as autocorrect has just suggested.... Glad I noticed that, it really could have caused some confusion.....
Wink

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


Mar 30 2015, 7:19pm

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snort [In reply to] Can't Post

I have come across the cliche of cool Elf-maidens, but I never thought Google autocorrect haunted the same websites I do!


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 30 2015, 10:02pm

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I can't remember either (about noticing Arwen the first time) [In reply to] Can't Post

But then I read the books out of order the first time, since TTT was checked out of the junior-high library.

A few years ago I talked to a friend who said LotR got him through Vietnam; he loved the book so much. And yet he swore that Aragorn had married Eowyn. So I guess Arwen didn't make much of an impression on him.

She did on me, though. At age 13, I had a self-inserted character fantasy where Aragorn and Arwen adopted me. I always loved her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 12:33am

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As important themes go, that's a superb one to point out. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And we have an important theme here - unlike many a fairytale, you can't necessarily go back home again with no bad consequences from your adventure. There is in this story a lot of thought about the costs of victory.

I think a lot of fantasy stories tend to the extremes: hero goes home and becomes king and gets girl and magical kingdom, or homeland is laid waste. Frodo's story falls in between, and it's things that fall between extremes in the gray/grey areas that make you think/thynk more.

Not to criticize The Hobbit, but I don't think it really dwells as much on the costs of victory, at least for Bilbo, who by the end is mainly just short of some spoons and has come out of the story richer, happier, and in his own home. Yes, the death of Thorin had an impact on him (in the book), but not profoundly and permanently so. He wasn't troubled by it for the rest of his life the way Frodo's losses troubled him.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 12:54am

Post #12 of 61 (4936 views)
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Aragorn's Fridgidaire [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, Google knows that he kept his girlfriend on ice for a few centuries, or her dad did, so it's editorializing and giving context rather than doing autocorrect. Smile (Couldn't be too frigid--she did produce several kids for him after all.)

We talked in The Shadow of the Past about Tolkien doing infodumps, and you point out a mini-one here on Arwen, but infodump is usually pejorative, so that's maybe the wrong word. As you say, he concisely gives us a lot of info about Arwen, Lorien, even her brothers and mother that would be awkward if Gandalf said to Frodo, "And there sits Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it is said..." Tolkien is using the role of the narrator adroitly here. He's always left me a bit resentful that we don't learn more about Elladan and Elrohir, because the way they're introduced here, I think their stories must pack quite a punch to them, but dang, we never get them!

I was 12 or so on first read also, so I think I thought this was casual party conversation or possibly flirting between Aragorn and Arwen, but I had no idea that these two were "an item." Nor did I understand why Arwen's glance pierced Frodo, except that she was Elrond's daughter and thus very powerful, and he felt daunted by being among all these powerful people, like a regular person wandering into a summit of modern-day world leaders and awkwardly realizing you really shouldn't be asking Vladimir Putin to pass you the salt, even if you ask politely.

Knowing the full story of Arwen and Luthien, I think Arwen's glance was the wordless equivalent of Galadriel's comment to him, that his coming to the Elves was the harbinger of their doom, and the tying up of loose ends of stories traced back to the First Age. An immortal could grasp all that; a hobbit would be suitably overwhelmed.

Back to Strider/Aragorn's status: I felt the way that Glorfindel welcomed him, and that fact that Gandalf was his friend, that he was more than a weather-beaten Ranger. I wasn't sure what all it meant to be an Heir of Isildur (he could have had 10 brothers and cousins who were Heirs too, for all I know), but I was getting the sense that he was someone whose importance far exceeded his rough exterior. That was a book impression that grew on my steadily. (The movie has to club you over the head with Legolas scolding people about who he is.)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 1:18am

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Many eatings [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for hosting this chapter AND scheduling this book, Breth!

Quote

We get more internal thoughts of Gandalf here, and some of them are I think fairly important in both a substitute-narrator utility as well as providing arcane and thematic information to the reader both directly from Gandalf's mind and inferred by statements.

What's remarkable to me is how far into the trilogy we get before we find out what Gandalf is thinking. Thus far, most of the story is told from Frodo's point of view. Gandalf can be quite the cipher, so peering into his cranium is satisfying. And gratifying, because it seemed to me in the story until now that he was a little too cavalier about Frodo's plight, but now we learn how very, very concerned he is about the hobbit, and though he's a big mover & shaker of Great Events, he doesn't lose sight of individuals. All that makes me like Gandalf a lot more.



Quote

** Gandalf says something very intriguing and puzzling as Frodo wakes, that I would like to explore: when they discuss the 'absurd' journey so far and Gandalf states that he was delayed: "...and that nearly proved our ruin. And yet I am not sure: it may have been better so."

I will agreeably agree with the others that regrettable as things turned out (Frodo nearly becoming a wraith and all), fate is directing things to happen for a better turn of events. There's the big picture stuff of all the races coming together for the Council, and the Treason of Isengard exposed, and the small but important stuff of all the hobbits toughening up on the journey. Frodo's courage in the Barrow-downs was a turning-point for him, kindling the courage that helped him for the rest of the trilogy. If Gandalf had safely shepherded the hobbits from Hobbiton to Rivendell without incident but still died in Moria, would they have had the mettle to face the challenges that later befell them?


Quote
"He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."

This is one of my favorite quotes of the book (out of a hundred or so), because of the way it foreshadows (or forelightens) the Phial, and also how it links up with the description of Frodo's final departure at the Havens, where he seems to become one with the Phial as he passes into the distance.

That's on the metaphorical stage. I think it's also a character commentary by Gandalf who sees something special in Frodo, the same quality that comes out of Frodo with Galadriel at the Mirror, when Frodo perceives things far beyond what Sam or any other hobbits would sense.


Quote
** Gandalf and Pippin have an interesting dynamic through the entire story; it comes into play here on porch at Rivendell, where Gandalf is trying to rein in the openhearted but sometimes silly nature of Pippin's. What is your reaction to this early interplay between these two characters?

What I love most about this exchange is that Pippin is gleefully dismissive of Gandalf, even defiant of him, without being obnoxious. Yet it's also sobering that he's called Frodo "Lord of the Ring," and Gandalf feels like that's an invocation of evil in a hallowed sanctuary. That juxtaposition of hobbit light-heartedness and Deep Concern comes up again in the Houses of Healing when Merry first grieves Theoden, then recovers and wants to smoke his pipe and have a meal. Glorfindel may straddle the two worlds of the Seen and the Unseen in a lordly, terrifying way, but hobbits straddle them also in their own meek, happy-go-lucky way.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 1:22am

Post #14 of 61 (4939 views)
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Have you ever wondered who sat on the other side of Frodo? [In reply to] Can't Post

Really, we hear all about Gloin, sitting on one side, but if you sit at a table, you're expected to talk to people on either side of you. Who was on the other side? Erestor, Galdor, a Variag of Khand, the Easter Bunny? It's another mystery like the Blue Wizards that I want an answer too. (Or maybe it was someone horribly dull whom Tolkien tastefully left out of the narrative rather than put them in a bad light. Maybe some mysteries are better left unsolved to avoid disappointment. It might have been a tra-la-la Elf.)


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 2:46am

Post #15 of 61 (4918 views)
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First in, early bird! [In reply to] Can't Post


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Excellent practical summation of why it was better for Gandalf not to be around. A rather understated eucatastrophe, as we have so much drama occur, and even the wound to Frodo happen which is superficially so frightening and an empirical 'bad' thing. To have that seen as the better of the outcomes is a neat inversion of priorities I think.

What are your ideas here? Is this an explanation for Gandalf's thoughts?
That's a nice idea, which I haven't thought of. Perhaps.
(Assuming you refer to your previous question here)

Or are they speculative of another outcome, another line of thought by Gandalf and/or JRRT?
I don't know. But I find it Curious that prof. Fleiger did not mention that Sam also gets to see the inner Frodo:

Quote
Sam looked at him….He was reminded suddenly of Frodo as he had lain, asleep in the house of Elrond, after his deadly wound. Then as he kept watch Sam had noticed that at times a light seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and stronger….but it (Frodo’s face) looked old, old and beautiful, as if the chiselling of the shaping years was now revealed in many fine lines that had before been hidden, though the identity of the face was not changed. Not that Sam Gamgee put it that way to himself. He shook his head, as if finding words useless, and murmured: ‘I love him. He’s like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.'


- Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

Which actually says a lot about Sam's journey, and growth; but that's not our subject at present.

And for another off-topic thought - I tend to read a different meaning in the Phial of Galadriel.



Yes, I was rather thinking that, and trying to unite the idea of the inner light and its meanings (beyond he immediate) inside the story and since its Olorin's larger view, in his thinking as well. So I think that connecting those two events is important in understanding the character of Gandalf, as well as what is at stake in the cosmos. And the events of that early phase of the journey, the good, the bad and the absurd, is what makes Frodo the vessel to bear the Ring as far as it goes. Without all of that, and potentially the wound which begins to claim him, Frodo's volunteering for Ringbearing may have seemed more ridiculous than feasible.
Lovely piece of musing from Sam there. He has become eyes to see that can. So in that sense it is about Sam's elevation in spirit, which that inner light in Frodo (as Sam becomes a hero in his own right) is an internal assessment for us of Sam. Really excellent connection that casts the change in Frodo as important from yet another standpoint.
Feel free to discuss the Phial - unless you would rather wait until it is properly gifted.Wink




Gandalf and Pippin have an interesting dynamic through the entire story; it comes into play here on porch at Rivendell, where Gandalf is trying to rein in the openhearted but sometimes silly nature of Pippin's. What is your reaction to this early interplay between these two characters?
That is an important observation.
At the present, it seems a if Gandalf is a schoolmaster - and a good one, as Tolkien would see it: he could be scolding and severe, but he inspires trust and affection.

I do think as they start, they finish, and the substitute paternal and at-times grumpy Headmaster in the shape of Gandalf is what helps turn the callow Pippin into the Guard of the Citadel that will brook the Steward and save Faramir.









Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 2:49am

Post #16 of 61 (4918 views)
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A key comparison [In reply to] Can't Post


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I'm also intrigued by this event as to whether it can it be seen as a limit to what external healing, even the most powerful in Middle-earth, can accomplish?

Some wounds can never be healed completey. Not even by the Valar (as with the Trees).


Exactly. Yes. A uniting theme.








Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 2:51am

Post #17 of 61 (4916 views)
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Melting points [In reply to] Can't Post


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I like how we get some bizarre details - the extracted splinter must be melted (I've no idea why that would be, but nor do I need one, it sounds completely appropriate!)
The geeky part of my brain says its something to do with unseen sinews, like the Witch-King's, or summat. Laugh


It's probably also an important opportunity to see the extent of Sam's devotion to Frodo. Frodo's going to need that, where he's going.
And we have an important theme here - unlike many a fairytale, you can't necessarily go back home again with no bad consequences from your adventure. There is in this story a lot of thought about the costs of victory.


Excellent observation. And that seems like a real-life lesson imported from JRRT's own life versus legendary sources.











Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 2:53am

Post #18 of 61 (4915 views)
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Is your Frigidaire running? You'd better go catch her then. // [In reply to] Can't Post


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*"Aragorn's girlfriend", not "Aragorn's Frigidaire", as autocorrect has just suggested.... Glad I noticed that, it really could have caused some confusion.....
Wink









Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 2:57am

Post #19 of 61 (4918 views)
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Frodo's costs vs Bilbo's [In reply to] Can't Post


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Quote
And we have an important theme here - unlike many a fairytale, you can't necessarily go back home again with no bad consequences from your adventure. There is in this story a lot of thought about the costs of victory.

I think a lot of fantasy stories tend to the extremes: hero goes home and becomes king and gets girl and magical kingdom, or homeland is laid waste. Frodo's story falls in between, and it's things that fall between extremes in the gray/grey areas that make you think/thynk more.

Yes, and for Frodo the cost is personal, doubly so: in saving the place he loves and watching it bloom ever more lovely, and then having to leave it. Bilbo left too, but without the sense of loss. In a way the hole the Ring created in him anesthetized him from that, and being in Rivendell helped too.



Not to criticize The Hobbit, but I don't think it really dwells as much on the costs of victory, at least for Bilbo, who by the end is mainly just short of some spoons and has come out of the story richer, happier, and in his own home. Yes, the death of Thorin had an impact on him (in the book), but not profoundly and permanently so. He wasn't troubled by it for the rest of his life the way Frodo's losses troubled him.

Quite right, or the losses of the younger Dwarf princes would have been more keenly felt. That story in its free-standing conception has a much neater ending in its way; the character we are most invested in gets home safe.












Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 3:08am

Post #20 of 61 (4912 views)
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More on Gandalf etc. [In reply to] Can't Post


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Thanks for hosting this chapter AND scheduling this book, Breth!
Most welcome!Cool


Quote
** Gandalf says something very intriguing and puzzling as Frodo wakes, that I would like to explore: when they discuss the 'absurd' journey so far and Gandalf states that he was delayed: "...and that nearly proved our ruin. And yet I am not sure: it may have been better so."

I will agreeably agree with the others that regrettable as things turned out (Frodo nearly becoming a wraith and all), fate is directing things to happen for a better turn of events. There's the big picture stuff of all the races coming together for the Council, and the Treason of Isengard exposed, and the small but important stuff of all the hobbits toughening up on the journey. Frodo's courage in the Barrow-downs was a turning-point for him, kindling the courage that helped him for the rest of the trilogy. If Gandalf had safely shepherded the hobbits from Hobbiton to Rivendell without incident but still died in Moria, would they have had the mettle to face the challenges that later befell them?


Yes. It would seem that the barrow then is a significant change in the character of Frodo that may not be evident at that stage of the reading. In retrospect it carries a weight and an impact that far exceeds the local bit of heroism. With Gandalf around I also wonder if at some point, with all the peril, the duty of 'ringbearing' would have to fall to the Strongest Man in the Party...which would be an Unfortunate Event since that would be Gandalf.


Quote
"He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."

This is one of my favorite quotes of the book (out of a hundred or so), because of the way it foreshadows (or forelightens) the Phial, and also how it links up with the description of Frodo's final departure at the Havens, where he seems to become one with the Phial as he passes into the distance.

That's on the metaphorical stage. I think it's also a character commentary by Gandalf who sees something special in Frodo, the same quality that comes out of Frodo with Galadriel at the Mirror, when Frodo perceives things far beyond what Sam or any other hobbits would sense.


As I posted in reply to Sador above, the whole transparency and the likening to the Phial has layers of meaning, and I do like how much of it relates to Gandalf (I had not thought about it in relation to Sam before) as well as to Frodo in the larger picture.



Quote
** Gandalf and Pippin have an interesting dynamic through the entire story; it comes into play here on porch at Rivendell, where Gandalf is trying to rein in the openhearted but sometimes silly nature of Pippin's. What is your reaction to this early interplay between these two characters?

What I love most about this exchange is that Pippin is gleefully dismissive of Gandalf, even defiant of him, without being obnoxious. Yet it's also sobering that he's called Frodo "Lord of the Ring," and Gandalf feels like that's an invocation of evil in a hallowed sanctuary. That juxtaposition of hobbit light-heartedness and Deep Concern comes up again in the Houses of Healing when Merry first grieves Theoden, then recovers and wants to smoke his pipe and have a meal. Glorfindel may straddle the two worlds of the Seen and the Unseen in a lordly, terrifying way, but hobbits straddle them also in their own meek, happy-go-lucky way.


Great point.









Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 3:11am

Post #21 of 61 (4915 views)
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Wishful thinking in an Eowyn fan? [In reply to] Can't Post


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A few years ago I talked to a friend who said LotR got him through Vietnam; he loved the book so much. And yet he swore that Aragorn had married Eowyn. So I guess Arwen didn't make much of an impression on him.

I confess, the first time after I read LOTR I had that thought ... did JRRT make a mistake? Should Aragorn have married Eowyn? With subsequent readings the relative unions made much more sense.

She did on me, though. At age 13, I had a self-inserted character fantasy where Aragorn and Arwen adopted me. I always loved her.


Love this. Angelic










noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 8:35am

Post #22 of 61 (4900 views)
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Bilbo's goods being up for auction at the end of the Hobbit is probably far enough in a book for children [In reply to] Can't Post

It could be seen as rather bleak: everyone has abandoned Bilbo as dead. Did anyone go look for him, or erect a memorial even? But Tolkien is able to play it for laughs, at least in part. For his more adult themed LOTR, no laughs.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 8:46am

Post #23 of 61 (4898 views)
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" At age 13, I had a self-inserted character fantasy where Aragorn and Arwen adopted me. I always loved her." [In reply to] Can't Post

But then...you are the heir to the realm of Gondor, and we owe you our allegiance!

That's lovely. I remember, at about the same age, working out in detail how one of Aragorns battles as king would be decided by the tactically brilliant and unexpected flank attack by the Queens Own Ithilien Heavy Cavalry (Eowyn's personal regiment, you see). The kind of self indulgent thing that Tolkien himself had to be persuaded out of when he abandoned his epilogue.(Though I like to think Sam's daughter got her pony anyway!)

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 31 2015, 9:42am

Post #24 of 61 (4892 views)
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ah, the powers and perils of thwarting readers.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Apparently, one of the main subjects in Sir Walter Scott's post bag after he wrote Ivanhoe was complaints from readers that he Got the Story Wrong: Ivanhoe, these readers felt, should obviously marry the brave, wonderful Rebecca, and not the nice but bland Rowena who has been off stage most of the time. Scott published a patient explanation that an Ivanhoe-Rebecca pairing only worked if you had completely misunderstood the characters and their circumstances.

I think that, like Scott, Tolkien refuses to give his characters something he knows some readers will want, (an Aragorn and Éowyn pairing) again because it's not a fit for the characters themselves. Certainly not once Arwen has been added to the story. Both writers get more credible and interesting stories as a result.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 31 2015, 12:01pm

Post #25 of 61 (4885 views)
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Fan-fiction wasn't a thing back then, [In reply to] Can't Post

so I never thought to write down those fantasies (I also had a role in Dark Shadows. And Batman, now that I think of it). I don't know why I didn't, since I loved to write. It would be fun to go back and read them now.

I certainly wasn't interested in being the heir to the realm of Gondor; I just thought they would be really cool parents. Aragorn reminds me a lot of my dad in the scene where he teases Merry in the Houses of Healing. And Arwen was so calm and nurturing, like my mom.

Your childhood fantasy sounds like great fun too. :-)

I'm really glad Tolkien wrote as much of his epilogue as he did. I always finish my readings of LotR by reading it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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