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Bombadil
Half-elven
Mar 29 2015, 7:06am
Post #1 of 35
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How about that WHOLE Ravenhill Fight..?
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There is SSOoo much goin' ON
It's Truly One of most Complicated Fights
EVER seen on Screen. {Totally Exhausting }
There hasn't EVEN..been a Thread YET?
Bomby was really Hoping they would fight on the Slopes
of the Mountain, BUT THIS WAS EVEN BETTER!
The ADDED element of the Slippy ICE alone
was Pushing the Outer Limits of "Fight Dynamics"
ONCE again PJ used an Enemies' Weapon {The Block & Chain of Azog}
Against him & the
Simple act of
Stepping off the Ice Block
& Allowing Azog to sink?
...WAS simply Brillant.
{Once again, PJ & TEAM for the WIN!}
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Lorien
Mar 29 2015, 7:21am
Post #2 of 35
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It was a brilliant sequence :)
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And so much going on, it's mindboggling! There's Bilbo, and Thorin and Dwalin, and Fili and Kili go off and do their thing, and Fili dies, and Kili's running around on a rampage, and Thorin and Dwalin go after him but get waylaid by orcs, and then the elves show up, and then THEY also separate...
It's a bit hard to keep track of where everyone is-- so hard that I didn't notice Dwalin's inexplicable absence until much later!-- but this makes it all the more rich and interesting on repeat viewings.
Moving the battle climax to Ravenhill was a good choice: gave us fewer main characters to focus on, making the stakes of the battle feel more "real".
And Thorin stepping off the ice is one of the most brilliant choreography choices in all of the ME films. The fight on the ice was great.
Also, I'll point out-- Dwalin says "Goblin mercenaries, no more than 100." "We'll take care of them."
Um wow. No more than 10, I'd understand. But no more than 100? 2 dwarves taking on almost 100 goblins by themselves? Wow. Dwalin and Thorin really are a dwarven dream team.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Mar 29 2015, 2:25pm
Post #3 of 35
(3238 views)
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Yup! there must be some explanation..
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for WHERE Dwalin went..
"he must have been Delayed"
Any ideas?
The Sub-Plot of Legolas killing Bolg was an
EXTREME
EXAMPLE of the Powers of "Our Woodland Prince".
The Digital Doubles has a BLAST,
his "Light-as-Feather" walk up the
Crumbling Bridge some people found too Extreme,
But Heck, This was Legolas Last Feat of extraordinary ability,
& Bomby was Shocked @ first... but got over it.
Honestly don't think PJ was competing with any other Film-makers
since Bom fells he is...
in a "Class-All-By-Himself".
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Lorien
Mar 29 2015, 3:21pm
Post #4 of 35
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still not crazy about Legolas defying gravity...
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... but he has a pretty adorable smile on his face before he jumps on Bolg's shoulders before killing the orc.
He likes what he does, at least. So that's nice to see.
I also quite like how Legolas returns Orcrist to Thorin. :) Combining Legolas's and Thorin's separate fights was pretty brilliant.
I want at least 30 additional seconds of ferocious Dwalin-on-Ravenhill action in the EE! I love seeing Dwalin in action. The guy is a tank.
My favorite thing about Ravenhill is Kili's rampage. Guy turns into a one-man army! Kili's revenge-rampage is heartbreaking and badass at the same time. Choreography is also pretty darn good!
Also quite enjoyed much of Tauriel's fighting choreography. She handle's herself pretty well with those orcs in the narrow passageway. Even if you don't like her as a character, I think it's possible to appreciate her distinctly elven (and gravity-respecting *ahem Legolas*) fighting style.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 29 2015, 4:14pm
Post #5 of 35
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I liked seeing a new location in BOFA, but the fighting in Ravenhill just went on too long. Endless hacking and slashing with very little story progression. Thorin's fight on the ice with Azog was well done but that was about it. It came to a point where I was no longer excited by the action onscreen because it wouldn't end, and because much of the action was so over the top.
Picture the action stunts that we saw Legolas perform in FOTR. The most outlandish thing that he did was jump onto a cave troll's back and shoot him in the head with arrows. OK, he's an agile elf and that was cool. In BOFA, he jumps off a ledge onto a giant flying bat, inverts himself without losing his arrows, shoots the bat in the head, falls 20-30 feet and uprights himself like a cat before landing on a tower. Then he jumps another 100 feet off the tower, stopping his momentum by lodging his sword into a bizarrely handicapped troll's head, then uses the sword to mind control the troll to knock over a tower. Then he confronts Bolg in what can only be described as the most physically impossible fight ever depicted in the ME films. Jumping across falling stones...need I say more?
The Ravenhill sequence to me, is the absolute nadir of the ME films. It was the point that The Hobbit truly became more of a cartoon than a live-action fantasy epic.
(This post was edited by Goldeneye on Mar 29 2015, 4:17pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 29 2015, 4:57pm
Post #6 of 35
(3170 views)
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Agree, I actually wished for a battle scene closer to the book, but since it departed
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so much let us judge what was presented. The theatrical version has too many holes in it to make sense. Where did the goats come from? Why send Fili and Kili in - other than to set up their deaths? - what happened to Dwalin? I can live with these decisions hoping the EE fleshed them out - but my biggest disappointment in all of the flimls it the way too over the top stuff. I think you can show Legolas being superlative and athletic without creating scenes that defy logic. Two dwarves against 100 orcs? Really? This is what bothers me...though I liked the film quite a bit....it just could have been better (IMHO). The brilliance is offset by the excess. I liked the ice fight since it was set up to show the two natural adversaries concluding their movie arc. The biggest problems are trying to explain how the battle was won just because Azog is killed in the ice with no orc witnesses. Orcs were swarming everywhere....too many for the allied armies to handle. It just could have been better for my 100% liking....but, overall, I still enjoyed the film. The whole of The Hobbit was uneven with brilliant, touching shots and the broken mood with outlandish scenes. The EE has a lot to resolve but I know it will only go partially toward fixing those loose ends.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 29 2015, 4:59pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Mar 29 2015, 8:04pm
Post #7 of 35
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IMO fresh, original - and since I love POTC and sword fight films I figure it gets harder and hard to really choreograph something new. I know I vaguely expected that the epic Thorin/Azog battle would be sword to sword - not the desperate grittiness of Thorin fighting with a broken blade (EPIC, AWESOME) and battling Azog on ice.
As fights go for me - I can't say enough good things - the use of the environment so that both Thorin and Azog are having issues. Watching all the dwarves - the careful attention to scale of the orcs vs. the dwarves - the dwarves are far smaller, but they take out orcs in a believable manner (e.g., there was no "fudging" so LOL the dwarves all of a sudden seem man-size.)
Yes, there are issues re the "clipped" editing (where DID those goats come from?) but I don't think it's far to interpolate - if we have to for now - that the rams were in the back of the dwarf army, perhaps, and brought in as the battle progresses (and I hope the EE brings back those trailer scenes of the rams!).
And I could have lived without Legolas' extreme moments . But that said, I like the Thorin/Azog sequence so much I am hoping to NOT watch footage of "how it was done", or some other stuff, at least in the immediate future. Like the Bombur barrel sequence in DOS, there's stuff I am content not to know, at least for now (tho still images are leaking already - phhht green screen stuff).
PS. The way Thorin receives Orcrist back - love. Never expected that....
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Lorien
Mar 29 2015, 8:14pm
Post #8 of 35
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I agree! You see the scale of the dwarves against the orcs very starkly throughout the sequence, I think moreso than anywhere else in the film (the trolls doesn't count, they "dwarf" anyone). The dwarves all look so tiny here... yet they're ferocious little balls of fury. So much fun to watch in action against their hulking foes.
This is the first Middle Earth fight sequence to have any element of winter-- well done playing with that element!
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Mar 29 2015, 8:16pm
Post #9 of 35
(3062 views)
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When Thorin points Orcrist @ US in the theater..?
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IT had SSOoo..Depth it looked like it, it, it's...TIP...
was in
10th row of the THEATER!
WayCOOL 3D...
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Mar 29 2015, 8:38pm
Post #10 of 35
(3045 views)
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... but I loved that shot! DOS had Beorn's bees, BOFA had this (sadly, I can't recall any 3D moments that would have stood out from the rest in AUJ).
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 30 2015, 2:39am
Post #11 of 35
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One of the few 3D scenes that I recall vividly.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Mar 30 2015, 4:06am
Post #12 of 35
(2936 views)
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We should ALL remember the First REAL 3D Moment in AUJ?
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Dwalin to Balin in Bilbo's Pantry..
"..It's RIDDLEd with Mold.."
Dwalin Tosses the Blue Cheese
into the 10th Row?
{..Bomby Ducked..}
       
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Mar 30 2015, 2:52pm
Post #13 of 35
(2819 views)
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Yes there was alot to keep up with, and Dwalin the Disappeared is a big mystery, BUT Thorin v. Azog was just SOOOO good! I understand that Richard, his stunt double AND the scale double were all filmed, but the editing is flawless here. The scale is also the most consistent in all of the films, maintaining the size difference between Thorin and Azog perfectly. I also like the way Thorin scrambled up on the shore and jumped off to launch his attack. And they built a gimmel to simulate the cracking, floating ice - yeah, PJ and the set designers really went all out on this one! Just kind of hate how it ended, though
And let's here it for Kili! How many huge Gundabad Orcs did Kili kill, anyway? (Almost sounds like "how much wood would a woodchuck chuck," doesn't it? ) He really had it going on until that darn Tauriel distracted him (though her fight scene with Bolg was really pretty impressive, even if she was getting her butt kicked). If ONLY he'd jumped down and stabbed Bolg in the head like Legolas did, instead of trying to choke him with the sword. My hubby commented that Kili's rage attack was a stupid thing to do, and I thought yes, but also SO realistic and understandable. I have to give that one high marks, too. Would have liked to see Fili take out a few Orcs before, you know - here's hoping for some of that in the EE.
On the other hand, Legolas - the most amazing part of his entire sequence is that he FINALLY ran out of arrows. 'Nuff said.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Lorien
Mar 30 2015, 3:41pm
Post #14 of 35
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Next time I do a rewatch, I'll make a tally for Kili's total body count on his rage fueled Kili-ing spree. 
Not sure what happened with Bolg! He had every advantage- surprise, excellent attack angle... his sword somehow entirely missed Bolg's head.
Kili's rage-attack was great because it was exactly what Kili would do. And after 3 movies of Fili always looking after and worrying about Kili... Kili finally does something for his big brother, even if it's in a totally heartbreaking way.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Mar 30 2015, 3:48pm
Post #15 of 35
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Legolas warmed my heart taking out those orcs
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Clearly of course Thorin had no idea, but for me it there is anything remotely amusing about the scenario, it's seeing those orcs drop like flies - and it evokes for me old folklore of tales re "elfshot coming from the dark causing death" and so on - with Legolas taking out one after another.
Again I was just very impressed re keeping the scale as the dwarves fight brilliantly - like Dwalin swinging his axe w. ferocity.
Kili - well, er, both Tauriel and Kili do things as experienced fighters I don't imagine they would do, but keeping it positive. Kili does a fine job in his fight scenes - must have been physically demanding too! Kudos to Aidan Turner! Now we can only fervently hope PJ hears the longing cries for more Fili fighting, as Fili's arrival at Ravenhill is awesome.
PS. A thought - now I wish the battle rams had stuck around too and attacked orcs - Thranduil's elk seemed to fight like a warrior in his own right.
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Lorien
Mar 30 2015, 3:52pm
Post #16 of 35
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Fili rolls off his battle ram...
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... like a boss.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Mar 30 2015, 3:55pm
Post #17 of 35
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Also, I'll point out-- Dwalin says "Goblin mercenaries, no more than 100." "We'll take care of them."
Um wow. No more than 10, I'd understand. But no more than 100? 2 dwarves taking on almost 100 goblins by themselves? Wow. Dwalin and Thorin really are a dwarven dream team.
*Laughs* - well, ratty little goblins are probably something these mountain-born, traveling, warrior dwarves are used to. Like this U.S. city I visited and the cockroaches palmetto sawbugs would be out at night, and you couldn't walk for stepping on them - crunch, crunch, crunch.
And mercenaries - probably more than half of them ran away when they say their companions' heads go flying....
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Lorien
Mar 30 2015, 4:00pm
Post #18 of 35
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Now I have an image in my head of Thorin and Dwalin battling a swarm of icky cockroaches together. Brothers in arms, indeed.
It's possible that Thorin and Dwalin together actually are a match for a goblin horde of 100. I mean, just look at how easily the company took out the goblins in the mountain tunnels! Anyone have a body count for that? I wouldn't be surprised if the entire body count from that scene is higher than the total ROTK body count!
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Avandel
Half-elven
Mar 30 2015, 5:22pm
Post #19 of 35
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There's a HUGE body count in BOFA, and if PJ had chosen to linger on any of it - it's pretty brutal. Reminds me of the article where someone from WETA was commenting on how much had to be cut to maintain the rating.
Kili takes off an orc head again, Thorin decapitates an orc, there are elves in Dale getting beaten down, dwarves on the battlefield - and so on. Lots of carnage. And a lot of us would like to see Fili add to that body count.
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Lorien
Mar 30 2015, 5:41pm
Post #20 of 35
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And a lot of us would like to see Fili add to that body count.
Well, he did add to the body count, if by add, you mean adding his *own* body...
I still think Fili's death scene is one of the most chilling in all of the ME films. Hard to believe they actually went there.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 30 2015, 10:15pm
Post #22 of 35
(2677 views)
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Yes there was alot to keep up with, and Dwalin the Disappeared is a big mystery, BUT Thorin v. Azog was just SOOOO good! I understand that Richard, his stunt double AND the scale double were all filmed, but the editing is flawless here. The scale is also the most consistent in all of the films, maintaining the size difference between Thorin and Azog perfectly. I also like the way Thorin scrambled up on the shore and jumped off to launch his attack. And they built a gimmel to simulate the cracking, floating ice - yeah, PJ and the set designers really went all out on this one! Just kind of hate how it ended, though And let's here it for Kili! How many huge Gundabad Orcs did Kili kill, anyway? (Almost sounds like "how much wood would a woodchuck chuck," doesn't it? ) He really had it going on until that darn Tauriel distracted him (though her fight scene with Bolg was really pretty impressive, even if she was getting her butt kicked). If ONLY he'd jumped down and stabbed Bolg in the head like Legolas did, instead of trying to choke him with the sword . My hubby commented that Kili's rage attack was a stupid thing to do, and I thought yes, but also SO realistic and understandable. I have to give that one high marks, too. Would have liked to see Fili take out a few Orcs before, you know - here's hoping for some of that in the EE. On the other hand, Legolas - the most amazing part of his entire sequence is that he FINALLY ran out of arrows . 'Nuff said.
In what way does your husband think Kili's rage attack stupid? Ultimately whatever his motivation he pretty much had two choices, fight or hide, and what honorable dwarf would hide in the middle of battle, for the sole purpose of saving himself? Most honorable men and elves would not either. He may have been enraged, but he wasn't fighting blinded by rage, he seemed very focused, so I don't think it was one of those situations where someone is fighting sloppy in a blind rage. He was fighting very well. Even when Tauriel called him, he didn't actually get distracted, he even killed an orc as he was answering her and I think he killed another one too.
Then came Bolg and the only thing I can think(because why not stab him in the head? everyone is thinking "argh you should have stabbed him in the head" when that scene happens:)) and what I guess the filmmakers were thinking(though the real reason is Kili obviously couldn't win the fight lol - though actually he could have, he just would have also needed to someone receive a mortal wound as well but that would have been too much like Thorin's fight) is that it's actually probably pretty hard to "aim" a head stab with a flying leap(and he did have to take quite a leap). You do need some time to aim. Or elven abilities. :)
I believe, rather than stab him in the head, he was trying to slit Bolg's throat, not choke him. :) Holding the blade sideways means he's using more of the area of the blade, it's wouldn't require a lot of finesse, just manage to get in the general neck area and pull back/slice.
Unless you get blocked and unfortunately Kili got blocked. But if Bolg's weapon hadn't come up when it did, Bolg would have been dead.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Mar 30 2015, 10:44pm
Post #23 of 35
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I was watching BOFA last night when my father stopped by a brief unexpected visit. He arrived during Ravenhill not too long after Fili died, but before Kili's death scene and stayed through to the end of the film. Now it should be noted that my father has not read The Hobbit nor has he seen any of the movies aside from what little he saw last night. (I'm working on him ). He was really impressed with Thorin and Kili's fighting skills and was very surprised they died. (I explained they died in the book). Overall he liked the whole Ravenhill sequence, only having one negative thing to say about it. It was interesting to get a perspective on Ravenhill from someone who was not invested in the characters, and therefore was more focused on their skills.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Mar 31 2015, 1:57am
Post #24 of 35
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*In what way does your husband think Kili's rage attack stupid? Ultimately whatever his motivation he pretty much had two choices, fight or hide, and what honorable dwarf would hide in the middle of battle, for the sole purpose of saving himself? Most honorable men and elves would not either. He may have been enraged, but he wasn't fighting blinded by rage, he seemed very focused, so I don't think it was one of those situations where someone is fighting sloppy in a blind rage.*
Well I suppose it's the fact that Kili went running up the stairs without a thought or a plan (other than killing orcs) against an unknown number of orcs. No I don't think the only choice was to fight or hide, Thorin was talking about regrouping so they could fight another day. To me it's a normal emotional response, to want to immediately avenge your brother, BUT emotional responses can often end badly - as it inevitably did here.
Yeah its too bad that Kili couldn't truly win the fight, and I always hated that part of the book. I really think one of the nephews should have survived, it would have been a better story IMO.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Arannir
Valinor
Mar 31 2015, 12:19pm
Post #25 of 35
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It is one of the absolute lowpoints of this trilogy for me.
For me, it wasn't a good alternative to having the battle on the slopes of the mountain.
Ravenhill as a location was okay - but imho the issue was having it so isolated from everything else.
Now a Ravenhill surrounded by the big battle... that would have been something.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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