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When did Aragorn journey into the East and the South?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 23 2015, 3:24pm

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When did Aragorn journey into the East and the South? Can't Post

I think that almost everything that pertains to the period of Aragorn's great journeys and errantries can be found in LotR, Appendices A and B. From Appendix B, "The Tale of Years," we know that this period lasted from TA 2957 to 2980; that under the name of Thorongil he serves first under King Thengel of Rohan then Ecthelion II in Gondor; and, in 2980 Aragorn reunites with Arwen in Lothlorien where he gives her the ring of Barahir and they plight their troth upon Cerin Amroth. All well and good.

Going to Appendix A, we learn the most about Aragorn's history from (v) the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. In 2951, soon after his twentieth birthday--after his foster-father Elrond reveals to him his true name and heritage, and after first meeting and falling in love with Lady Arwen--Aragorn takes his leave of his mother and of Elrond and goes off into the Wild. Aragorn seems to spend the next several years in Wilderland, meeting and befriending Gandalf the Grey in 2956. In Peter Jackson's movie-verse, it is probably during this period of Aragorn's life that Thranduil of Mirkwood learns him and when the young Ranger first acquires the nickname of Strider. Of the time, and through the period of Aragorn's great journeys and errantries, Appendix A says:

Quote

'Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond; and the next day he said farewell to his mother, and to the house of Elrond, and to Arwen, and he went out into the wild. For nearly thirty years he laboured in the cause against Sauron; and he became a friend of Gandalf the Wise, from whom he gained much wisdom. With him he made many perilous journeys, but as the years wore on he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honor, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.'



We learn more about Aragorn's service to Gondor in the earlier entry about the Steward, Echelion II:

Quote

'In much that [Ecthelion] did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born. He came to Echelion from Rohan, where he had served the King Thengel, but he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of men, by land or by sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.'



As Thorongil, Aragorn's single greatest victory for Gondor was the leading of a successful raid upon Umbar that destroyed a large part of the fleet of the Corsairs, afterwhich he departs from Ecthelion's service. The text places this in the year 2980*, the year of his reunion with Arwen, but this leaves little time for further explorations. Aragorn spends the time in between in the Mountains of Mordor, scouting out the Enemy. So, when does Aragorn explore the lands farther East and in the South? He doesn't seem to have the time until after 2980, but that does not seem to be what Tolkien intended. Thoughts?

* 'There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.' - J.R.R. Tolkien, LotR, Appendix A.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 23 2015, 3:30pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 23 2015, 4:04pm

Post #2 of 28 (3652 views)
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Was Aragorn's time in Gondor interrupted? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps Aragorn as Thorongil spent only a relatively short time in Gondor before exploring the East and South. While in Harad in TA 2979 or early 2980 Aragorn learns that the Corsairs of Umbar are plotting to attack Gondor and he returns to Ecthelion to plan and carry out the raid on the pirate fleet.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 23 2015, 4:05pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 23 2015, 7:43pm

Post #3 of 28 (3641 views)
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The Expanded Timeline [In reply to] Can't Post

I may have found the answer to my own question. In The Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien's expanded "The Tale of the Years of the Third Age" has, under the year 2956:

Quote

Aragorn meets Gandalf, and their great friendship begins. Aragorn undertakes great journeys, even far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the purposes of Sauron and all his movements. As an unknown warrior he fights in the service of Gondor and of Rohan. Because of his high race, the noblest among mortal men, his fostering by Elrond, and his learning from Mithrandir, and his many deeds and journeys he becomes the most hardy of Men, both Elven-wise and skilled in craft and lore.



This suggests that Aragorn journeyed into the East and to Far Harad in the early days of his wanderings, before entering into the service of King Thengel of Rohan. This contradicts the implications in "Here Follows a Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" from LotR, Appendix A; however, it does fit with the entry for the Stewards of Gondor concerning Ecthelion II and his son Denethor.

Can we agree on this? Tolkien seems to contradict himself at some point with every version of this.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 23 2015, 7:50pm)


squire
Half-elven


Mar 23 2015, 9:08pm

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The Appendices really do cover the problem adequately, without recourse to the drafts. [In reply to] Can't Post

To start with, I think you are best advised to stick with the material in the Appendices, and avoid drawing from HoME XII (Peoples of Middle-earth). As with HoME VI-IX (the History of The Lord of the Rings), the material in the last volume is the basis for what Tolkien actually published in LotR, or chose not to publish.

Secondly, while I agree that Aragorn's timeline is fuzzy in places -- mostly because of Tolkien's penchant for generalizing in heroic fashion (Aragorn went forth, etc.) and then giving specific dates -- I don't have difficulty in concluding that Aragorn explored the lands of the East and the South both during the 23-year period called (in App. B) "Aragorn['s] great journeys and errantries", and after that time as well.

The "Tale of Years" in App. B (AB) is one main source; the "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" in App. A (AA) is the other. The third is App. A.iv, Gondor, The Stewards (AS). These conflict in just a couple of places; mostly they are consistent. For instance, in AA Aragorn encounters Arwen when he's 20. AB tells us that is 2951. AA tells us he has already done "great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond." From what we learn in his interview with Arwen, we can be sure these great deeds took place in the North and that he had never been even as far East and South as Lothlorien.

What happens next? AA tells us he "went out into the wild...for nearly thirty years." AB agrees that these 29 years were 2951 to 2980. In AA, with Gandalf as his tutor, he "made many perilous journeys" and later made other journeys "more often alone." What follows is told in more detail both in AB and in AS: he rides with Rohan, and fights for Gondor, and only after both those services is it said that he "went alone far into the East and deep into the South" finally becoming who he is when the Ring is found and his story concludes in the War of the Ring.

Now, how do the 29 years break down in AB? From 2951 to 2956 (5 years), Aragorn "goes out into the wild". From 2956 to 2957 (1 year), Aragorn has just met Gandalf and become his friend. From 2957 to 2980 (23 years) he "undertakes his great journeys and errantries" including his service to Rohan and Gondor.

The two accounts don't quite gel. For five years Aragorn has not met Gandalf yet, then there is an undifferentiated period of 23 years of adventure and exploration. We don't know how long Aragorn adventured with whom or in which exact sequence: with Gandalf, by himself "alone", as Thorongil in Rohan, and as Thorongil in Gondor. Did he even go directly from Rohan to Gondor, or spend some years between on his own? Both Ecthelion and Thengel ruled during that full period, so there's no help from the dynastic timelines of Gondor and Rohan. All we know is how it ended, with Aragorn's triumphant return from Umbar and departure from Gondor headed towards Mordor (in AS), and then his reunion with Arwen in that same year, 2980 (in AA and AB). Now AA seems to insist that Aragorn's explorations of the East and South exclusively followed his service to King and Steward and also must be included in the "nearly thirty years" period. But it seems completely unlikely, of course, that he explored the reaches of Mordor, Harad, and Rhun in a few months in 2980!

If we consign that one dramatic narrative sequence to the bin of Tolkien's disordered notes, it becomes quite possible that before or after serving Thengel Aragorn had already gone South and East, with or without Gandalf (who has been South but never East, as he told Faramir). Certainly his stress on the threat of Umbar to Gondor, and his ability to raid the Haven at night, hints of personal knowledge of that land ("Thorongil often counselled Ecthelion that the strength of the rebels in Umbar was a great peril to Gondor"..."he came to Umbar unlooked-for by night...then he withdrew his fleet with small loss.").

We also feel constrained by AA's construction of a 29-year period before Aragorn can impress Arwen enough to win her love. It is an important element in the Tale of their romance. But then what happened after he and Arwen made their vows? In AB, we hear no more of Aragorn, until Bilbo's farewell party in 3001 activates Gandalf and he "calls on the help of Aragorn". But in AA, after Elrond lays down the law about premarital sex, "Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil" and "he spent many years in far countries." These were at least in the South, we learn, because when he returns just in time to see his mother one last time, he "had returned to the North."

So that leaves another twenty - 20 - years for Aragorn to poke about in parts unknown. Although there are those five unaccounted years "in the wild" at the beginning of his odyssey, before meeting Gandalf, the thrust of the accounts in AA and AB seem to tell against his getting as far as Harad and Rhun at that time, and at such a young age. But if we can elide the "in the hour of victory" passage in AA to give him a few months in Lorien and Rivendell between leaving Gondor and hitting the Ephel Duath and beyond, there is between then and 3001 all the time he would need to complete the transformation described at the climax of the first half of AA, whereby "he became at last the most hardy of living Men."



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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Mar 23 2015, 9:17pm

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Very interesting topic. [In reply to] Can't Post

According to the timeline on The Encyclopedia of Arda, in 2980 "'Thorongil' (Aragorn) leaves the service of Gondor and travels into the east. He later comes to Lórien, where he meets Arwen again, and the two become betrothed." They don't give a reference, but they're usually pretty reliable, I think. However, this directly contradicts Appendix B in LotR, which distinctly says in 2980 "Aragorn enters Lórien, and there meets again Arwen..." I have always assumed that it's in 2980 that he settle down (sort-of) with the Rangers in Eriador. He clearly had a strong relationship with them.

I wonder if EoA got its info from Peoples of Middle Earth or some similar source. Surely a published timeline in LotR has stronger authenticity?








Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 24 2015, 1:55am

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Is this a contradiction? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
According to the timeline on The Encyclopedia of Arda, in 2980 "'Thorongil' (Aragorn) leaves the service of Gondor and travels into the east. He later comes to Lórien, where he meets Arwen again, and the two become betrothed." They don't give a reference, but they're usually pretty reliable, I think. However, this directly contradicts Appendix B in LotR, which distinctly says in 2980 "Aragorn enters Lórien, and there meets again Arwen..." I have always assumed that it's in 2980 that he settle down (sort-of) with the Rangers in Eriador. He clearly had a strong relationship with them.

I wonder if EoA got its info from Peoples of Middle Earth or some similar source. Surely a published timeline in LotR has stronger authenticity?



We read that when Aragorn (as Thorongil) leaves the service of Gondor, he sets his sights on Mordor. Then we learn that he was scouting in the Mountains of Mordor just before he felt the need to visit Lorien. In this, at least, we have no contradiction, but convergence.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 24 2015, 1:58am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 24 2015, 4:51am

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Aragorn didn't seem to range far until after 2956 [In reply to] Can't Post

In the years before his twenty-sixth birthday, Aragorn seems to have spent all of his time in Eriador and Rhovanion. I doubt that he had been much farther south than Tharbad or farther east than Dale and Erebor, as his great journeys did not begin until 2957 or later.

Some of those early wanderings were in the company of Gandalf and probably did include some of his adventures in Rohan. We don't know when his service to King Thengel began; only that it was before he went to Gondor. Some time before the War of the Ring Aragorn entered Moria--apparently alone or at least without Gandalf. Perhaps this was later, during the time the Ranger was seeking Gollum.

There may have been a gap between Aragorn's time in Rohan and his service in Gondor, although I get the impression that it could not have been very long--a few years at most. We are agreed that the few months between Thorongil's victory at Umbar in 2980 and Aragorn's reuinion with Arwen in Lothlorien that same year is too short a time to include much exploring.

It really does look like most of Aragorn's exploration of the distant East and deep South must have been between 2980 and 3001. Gandalf called on Aragorn's help then to try to track down Gollum, but that seems to soon stall until the hunt is taken up again in 3009. Still this might account for much of the time that he is away in distant lands up to his last visit to his mother Gilraen in 3006; Gilraen dies the following Spring.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 24 2015, 4:54am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Mar 24 2015, 6:08am

Post #8 of 28 (3594 views)
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How long did he spend in "the East"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Appendix A suggests that the visit to Lórien was fairly soon after leaving Gondor. But any significant "traveling into the east" would take more time than that, not a quick whiz past Mordor on the way.








Elizabeth
Half-elven


Mar 24 2015, 6:18am

Post #9 of 28 (3596 views)
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So, when was his Ranger career? [In reply to] Can't Post

I always assumed that after the Lórien betrothal Aragorn was mostly in Eriador except for a few excursions such as the search for Gollum. Are you saying that was when he went East?








squire
Half-elven


Mar 24 2015, 12:17pm

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Did Aragorn explore the "far" East and South after his betrothal to Arwen, or did he stay "home" in Eriador? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I concluded in my previous post, I think the best interpretation of the various materials, with allowance for some contradictory texts, is that Aragorn's farthest-ranging ventures, past Mordor to the East and South, took place in the latter period between 2980 and 3001, after his service in Gondor and his betrothal to Elrond. I have bolded some clues in the texts below:
‘It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, ... he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien...' - LotR App A.v, "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen". This is roughly late in 2980, after he is said in App. A.iv to have left Minas Tirith heading towards Mordor.

'Elrond and Aragorn ... spoke no more of this matter, but Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil. ... Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought' - ibid. This is presumably in the fall of 2981, following the implied timeline that Aragorn left Gondor for Mordor in early to mid 2980, left Mordor for Lorien at the end of 2980 (as above), and spent a "season" in Lorien with Arwen before their engagement at Midsummer of 2981.

'After a few years Gilraen took leave of Elrond and... seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. - ibid. This would be between 2981 and 2990, depending on how we take "a few years" in the estimation of the Dunadan and the Eldar!

'But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her' - ibid. This is 3006, perhaps 20 years after Gilraen's departure from Rivendell, based on Gilraen's death "the following spring" which is listed in 3007 in App. B.

Thus the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' in App. A, supported by the Tale of Years in App. B, mentions episodes in Aragorn's life, after his betrothal to Arwen but before the events of the War of the Ring, that span over 25 years. That is almost as long as the fabled "near 30" of his growth to full maturity before snaring Arwen. Twice he is said to have planned or made extensive journeys to "far countries" during these years, and he definitely travels South. Yet it is clear that from time to time he returned to the North to see his Mom and Arwen and Gandalf.

There is no reason to think of such long spans of time as restricting Aragorn to one region but not another. He could well have spent as much time in Eriador and Rhovanion as he did in Harad and Rhun during these years - just as he could have during the earlier period of his chivalric training. Indeed, except for the importance of his growth to enough wisdom to successfully court Arwen and reach an agreement with Elrond, this entire stretch of his life may be thought of as most people do: one long, 60-year lifetime of adventuring, hunting, questing, fighting, leading, and learning so that he is fit to be who he is when we meet him in The Lord of the Rings.

(Although I am quite fond of my new theory that he scouted Harad and Umbar, possibly with Gandalf, before he served Ecthelion, and only risked exploring the Morgul Vale and later the far countries of Rhun after his departure from Gondor.)



squire online:
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 24 2015, 1:13pm

Post #11 of 28 (3574 views)
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That depends on 'when' he went. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Appendix A suggests that the visit to Lórien was fairly soon after leaving Gondor. But any significant "traveling into the east" would take more time than that, not a quick whiz past Mordor on the way.



Aragorn's travels beyond the North and Gondor could have been broken up between other events. One period might have been before his time as Thorongil in Rohan. Another might have taken place between his service to King Thengel and the time he spent in Gondor under Ecthelion II.

I assume that you are specifically writing of the period immediately after Aragorn's successful raid on Umbar. Tolkien wrote in Appendix A that after Aragorn (as Thorongil) took his leave of Ecthelion, "when he was last seen his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow." Then in "Aragorn and Arwen" we have, "It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel." From this it seems clear that Aragorn did not travel farther east than Mordor in the year 2980, at least not until after he and the Lady Arwen had plighted their troth. Here, the 'far countries' are clearly beyond the confines of Gondor and the North, beyond even the borders of Mordor.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 24 2015, 1:29pm

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On-and-off Ranger [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I always assumed that after the Lórien betrothal Aragorn was mostly in Eriador except for a few excursions such as the search for Gollum. Are you saying that was when he went East?



I have to agree with Squire. Despite the contradiction with the part of Appendix A that implies that Aragorn's more distant wanderings were included in his twenty-nine year period of 'great journeys and errantries,' I also have to conclude that many of those journeys did not take place until after the year 2980. We do know that Aragorn did, periodically but not frequently, return to the North at times and visit his mother. He also doubtless kept abreast with the doings of his captains among the Rangers at these times. This was also the period when he and Gandalf first began their search for Gollum (in 3001). The Hunt for Gollum was renewed in earnest in 3009; I think that we can conclude that Aragorn's journeys into the distant East and Far Harad had been concluded by this time at the latest.

Slight change of subject: We know that Gandalf once went to Moria, apparently alone, in searth of Thorin's father Thrain. Aragorn once traveled through Moria as well, without Gandalf. What was his business? We don't know when this happened. Was he searching for Gollum? Tolkien never clarified this as far as I can tell.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 24 2015, 1:35pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Mar 24 2015, 10:51pm

Post #13 of 28 (3540 views)
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Great job, I'm convinced. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, squire for the great analysis, and thanks Otaku-sempai for a great question!








Laineth
Lorien

Apr 2 2015, 2:29am

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Sorry... [In reply to] Can't Post

for dropping in late. I still am having a hard time believing Aragorn went to the far south/east after 2980. The paragraph you quote from PME is the conclusion I came to from the text for several reasons.

Just some requoting as I explain my thoughts:


Quote
Appendix B
TA 2957-80: Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor.
[and]
TA 2984: Death of Ecthelion II.



Quote
Appendix A: The Stewards
Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born. He came to Ecthelion from Rohan, where he had served the King Thengel, but he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of men, by land or sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.

Thorongil often counseled Ecthelion that the strength of the rebels in Umbar was a great peril to Gondor, and a threat to the fiefs of the south that would prove deadly, if Sauron moved to open war. At last he got leave of the Steward and gathered a small fleet, and he came to Umbar unlooked for by night, and there burned a great part of the ships of the Corsairs. He himself overthrew the Captain of the Haven in battle upon the quays, and then he withdrew his fleet with small loss. But when they came back to Pelargir, to men's grief and wonder, he would not return to Minas Tirith, where great honor awaited him.

He sent a message of farewell to Ecthelion, saying: “Other tasks now call me, lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate.” Though none could guess what those tasks might be, nor what summons he had received, it was known whither he went. For he took boat and crossed over Anduin, and there he said farewell to his companions and went on alone; and when he was last seen his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow.

There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.


This is quite clear - Aragorn came to Gondor directly from Rohan, he already had knowledge of the South, when he left he was headed towards Mordor, and it was four years before Denethor became Steward. Except for the name of Thorongil (why would the Rohirrim give him a Sindarin name?), everything matches.

Now in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, we have:


Quote
He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.

Thus he became at last the most hardy of living Men, skilled in their crafts and lore, and was yet more than they; for he was elven-wise, and there was a light in his eyes that when they were kindled few could endure.

[cut]

It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.

[cut]

But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any king he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord form the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.


The text is explicit in saying that it was only after all his far journeys that he became "the most hardy of living Men." The text is also explicit in saying that it was him being "grown to full stature of body and mind" and looking like "an Elf-lord form the Isles of the West," (instead of a man) that made Arwen fall for him. He has to have taken all those journeys by the time he re-meets Arwen.

The tale also contradicts itself. The first part states he did all his journeying before remeeting Arwen (indeed, that is the entire point of the passage); the second parts states he has not gone into the far countries; and the third part is back to enforcing the point about him being fully grown, and thus worthy of Arwen.

While there is no way to reconcile the three, the plot requires it all to have been done before meeting Arwen again. The first way, covered in The Stewards, makes the most narrative sense.

As for the quote of "Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil.", the North was no safe place to be. We know that he captures Gollum in the Dead Marshes - clearly he continues to travel. But there is no proof of him far south/east again.

Gilrean can be explained also. As had been pointed out to me by someone else, the last line before Gilrean's part is Arwen making the standard. We know that that was started in 3007, the same year Gilrean died. As Gilrean died in the spring, Arwen would hardly have time to start the standard, what with also traveling back from Lothlorien. Therefore, the text cannot be going in a linear time.


Quote
After a few years Gilrean took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador, and lived alone; and she seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her, and she said to him before he went:


As the other person explained, it does not make sense that Gilrean continued to live in Rivendell for another 30 odd years, and then randomly returned to her people. With Aragorn gone, there was nothing to tie her to Rivendell. Also, "far countries" here could easily mean Rohan or Gondor, because it only says "Aragorn had returned to the North" ie Arnor.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 2 2015, 12:48pm

Post #15 of 28 (3154 views)
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Contradictions. [In reply to] Can't Post

The quoted text illustrates my point. Aragorn led the raid on the Corsair fleet and then headed for Mordor after leaving Ecthelion's service; however, he reunited with Arwen after returning from Mordor that same year. He could not have traveled much beyond the confines of Mordor during that time and certainly could not have reached Far Harad "where the stars are strange." Aragorn might have journeyed as far south as Umbar before his time in Rohan and/or some ways to the east. Yet, it still appears that at least some of his more distant travels could not have been until after 2980 in Tolkien's legendarium--quite possibly earlier in the movie-verse depending on when he first entered Lothlorien.

We are discussing Aragorn in the film series, so we are not looking at the same timeline as Tolkien's Tale of Years. This Aragorn was born as early as 2914. His great journeys and errantries might have begun in 2940 (the same year as Thorin's quest in the films) or even before that. If his reunion with Arwen still occured in 2980 then you could be right and he might have had time to explore the distant East and far South after he left Gondor. If we use the earliest possible year for Aragorn's birth, this is one way it might go:

2914 - Aragorn is born to Arathorn and Gilraen.
2916 - Arathorn is slain by Orcs; Aragorn is fostered by Lord Elrond in Rivendell as Estel.
2935 - Elrond reveals to Aragorn his true name and heritage. Aragorn meets Arwen. In the Fall he goes into the wild.
2939 - Aragorn meets and befriends Gandalf the Grey.
2940 to 2980 - Aragorn's great journeys and errantries. Sometime after 2953 Aragorn as Thorongil enters into the service of King Thengel of Rohan followed by a period of service to Ecthelion, the Steward of Gondor.
2963 - Aragorn as Thorongil leads a successful raid on the Corsairs of Umbar, destroying much of their fleet. Afterwards he departs from Gondor towards the Mountains of Shadow. He spends the next seventeen years traveling in distant countries in the East and far South.
2980 - After spying on the Enemy in Mordor Aragorn is allowed entry into Lorien where he is reunited with Arwen; they plight their troth on the hill of Cerin Amroth.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 2 2015, 1:28pm

Post #16 of 28 (3153 views)
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Sorry, Reading Room! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We are discussing Aragorn in the film series, so we are not looking at the same timeline as Tolkien's Tale of Years.



Oops! Forgot which forum I was in. In the book-canon there just is not enough time for Aragorn to do much exploring between the time he leaves Gondor and his entry into Lothlorien; they both happen in the same year.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 3 2015, 12:06pm

Post #17 of 28 (3123 views)
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Gilraen -- you've lost me... [In reply to] Can't Post


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As the other person explained, it does not make sense that Gilrean continued to live in Rivendell for another 30 odd years, and then randomly returned to her people. With Aragorn gone, there was nothing to tie her to Rivendell. Also, "far countries" here could easily mean Rohan or Gondor, because it only says "Aragorn had returned to the North" ie Arnor.



I'm confused. Who claimed that Gilraen remained in Rivendell for thirty years after Aragorn left? I don't remember such an assertion being made by anyone. According to the Tale of Years, Gilraen returned to her people in 2954. What we do know is that Aragorn made at least some of his journeys to far countries between 2980 and 3006, the year previous to his mother's death.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 5 2015, 1:08am

Post #18 of 28 (3086 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was writing when I should have been sleeping! Smile

My response was still about not being convinced that Aragorn's "more distant wanderings" (as you said) happened after 2980; and that in fact the story requires the opposite conclusion. Therefore, I said the only way the narrative makes sense if it was they first way, covered in Appendix A under The Stewards: far east/south -> rohan -> gondor -> mordor -> lothlorien.

As for Gilrean, where did you get 2954? I doublechecked Appendix B, and it doesn't give a date. My point was that that quote doesn't prove he went back to the far countries. It just says "the North", ie Arnor. The fact that Aragorn captured Gollum in the Dead Marshes proves that he traveled back secretly to Gondor at least once. That's even without looking at the grammar:


Quote
After a few years Gilrean took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador, and lived alone; and she seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her, and she said to him before he went:


Her return to their people is put in the same sentence with Aragorn being in far countries. The next sentence has a comma between 'time' and 'when', separating them.


(This post was edited by Laineth on Apr 5 2015, 1:10am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 5 2015, 5:41am

Post #19 of 28 (3078 views)
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Gilraen returns to her people. [In reply to] Can't Post


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As for Gilrean, where did you get 2954? I doublechecked Appendix B, and it doesn't give a date. My point was that that quote doesn't prove he went back to the far countries. It just says "the North", ie Arnor. The fact that Aragorn captured Gollum in the Dead Marshes proves that he traveled back secretly to Gondor at least once.



My source was Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, but I don't know from where he obtained the figure of 2954. It might only be a reasonable guess based on Tolkien's statement that it was only a few years after Aragorn went into the wild. It could not have been much later within the context of "a few years."


Quote

But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her, and she said to him before he went...



We have to place this sentence in its proper context. This exchange between Aragorn and his mother takes place in the year before Gilraen's death in 3007. The Hunt for Gollum began in 3001, but it apparently stalled for some time before being taken up again in 3009. Of course, some of Aragorn's travels referred to during this time must have involved the search for Gollum. In any case, Aragorn must have been doing something in the twenty years between his reunion with Arwen and Bijlbo's farewell party. He might as well have been exploring the farthest reaches of Middle-earth during this period.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 9 2015, 5:27am

Post #20 of 28 (3001 views)
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But why? [In reply to] Can't Post

First, the text explicitly states otherwise - Aragorn did his "great journeys and errantries" in the 23 years stated: 2957 - 2980. By doing so, he became Arwen's equal. That cannot be denied, as my quotes above show.

I would not be objecting if it was not such a crucial component to his character arc, and his relationship with Arwen. Aragorn must have done those journeys before entering Lothlórien.

Also, why would he leave the North again for years at a time? He finally has a relationship with Arwen, Arnor is getting a lot more dangerous, and his people need a Chieftain. In LotR he clearly has taken on that role, and he would need time to build up that rapport.

The quote with Gilrean needs more context. Remember the sentence in front of it also: "and she seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. But on a time, when Aragorn had returned to the North, he came to her"

It is contrasting his years in the far countries with his years in the North. "On a time" is specific, like you said. On a specific time, Aragorn came to his mother. The unusual part is "when Aragorn had returned".

Look at it this way. Had means already done. It's past tense. If we take it out, the sentence reads, "But on a time, when Aragorn returned to the North, he came to her"

That's gramatically correct. On a specific time, Aragorn returns to the North, and goes to his mother. There is no need for the word "had". The only reason to have "had" there is to change the meaning of the sentence: On a specific time, after Aragorn returned already to the North, he visited her. "Had" competely changes the meaning of the sentence.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 9 2015, 12:34pm

Post #21 of 28 (2993 views)
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Aragorn's early and later travels [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien does tell us that Aragorn did not meet Gandalf until he was in his twenty-fifth year and that he did travel at least a bit, both with and without the Grey Pilgrim, before his time in Rohan. Aragorn and Gandalf may have journeyed into the South together where Gandalf was known as Incánus to the Haradrim.

The real problem is that Tolkien contradicts himself. You cite one passage that suggests that his far wanderings were finished by TA 2980. However, there is another in 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' in Appendix A that suggests exactly the opposite. From the paragraph that begins, 'Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond...' we have this:

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'For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.'



We know that Aragorn left the service of Gondor in 2980 before reuniting with Arwen in Lothlorien where they spent a season together before plighting their troth in the evening on Midsummer's Day. The passage specifically tells us that Aragorn "went alone far into the East and deep into the South after leaving Gondor, but he could not have done this before arriving in Lorien still in the first half of that same year. The journeys referenced there had to have happened after he departed from Lothlorien and probably after also visiting Rivendell again. It also seems that it is a few years after this visit when Gilraen returns to her own folk, so Foster's date of 2954 must be off by about thirty years! This would also confirm that when Aragorn visited his mother in her own lands, it had to be well after 2980. We already know that the last time he saw her was in the year 3006.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 9 2015, 12:42pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 9 2015, 3:48pm

Post #22 of 28 (2977 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien does contradict himself. Several times. There is no way to reconcile them all.

However, we do know events cemented into the storyline. I quoted the full quote of that above, where next sentence explicitly states it was those specific journey's that made him the "most hardy of living Men". I went over how all of the quotes interconnect, and how the storyline requires his journeys to be done, in my original post.

What you are now saying about Gilrean is what I argued against in my original post.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 10 2015, 1:54pm

Post #23 of 28 (2964 views)
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Nonetheless... [In reply to] Can't Post

If we hold LotR Appendix A to be accurate then we can reconcile it with the Tale of Years (Appendix B) if we conclude that the dates given for Aragorn's journeys and errantries do not tell the entire story. The Dunadan's travels did begin in his early days after he first met Gandalf the Great. However, they ceased during the period of his errantries in Rohan and Gondor, and Aragorn's travels resumed after his successful raid on Umbar and his engagement to Arwen, that is to say after 2980. There is a definite, specific sequence of events revealed in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" that is expanded upon in the earlier entry of Ecthelion II of Gondor and the Tale of Years:

2951:
- Aragorn's true name and heritage are revealed to him by Elrond in Rivendell.
- Aragorn first meets and falls in love with Arwen Undomiel.
- Aragorn takes leave of Elrond and his mother Gilraen and takes to the wild.

2956: Aragorn first encounters and befriends Gandalf the Grey.

2957:
- Aragorn spends an unspecified number of years traveling on "many perilous journeys" both with and without Gandalf.
- Aragorn spends a number of years under the name of Thorongil in service to King Thengel of Rohan.
- After his time in Rohan, Aragorn as Thorongil serves under Ecthelion the Stoward of Gondor until the spring of 2980. During that time Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, comes to view him as a rival and perhaps penetrates his disguise.

2980:
- Aragorn's errantry in Gondor culminates in a successful raid on the Corsair fleet in Umbar.
- Aragorn takes leave of Ecthelion early in the year and journeys to the Mountains of Shadow where he experiences perils on the borders of Mordor.
- Wanting to return to Rivendell for a time, Aragorn visits Lothlorien where he is reunited with Arwen.
- Arwen and Aragorn wander together in Lorien for a season and plight their troth on the evening of Midsummer.
- Aragorn returns to Rivendell where Elrond sets him the goal of becoming King of both Gondor and Arnor before he and Arwen might wed.
- Aragorn again goes forth alone for many years "far into the East and deep into the South" to danger and toil, while Arwen remains in Rivendell watching over him in thought.

2984 (approximately): Gilraen takes leave of Elrond and returns to dwell with her own people.

We don't get any more concrete news of Aragorn until the year 3001 when Gandalf recruits him to begin the hunt for Gollum.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 10 2015, 1:59pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Apr 10 2015, 7:22pm

Post #24 of 28 (2921 views)
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As... [In reply to] Can't Post

... your first paragraph says, they cannot be reconciled without changing Appendix B. It states:


Quote
TA 2957-80: Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor.


It is explicit - his great journeys were only in those years. As Aragorn says in FotR: "I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange."

Even. Aragorn stresses the distance. It would be long and tiring, and would take a significant amount of time - thus being a great journey.

I could go on, but you have not responded to my points about how that challenges the narrative. In summary:

Aragorn could not make the raid on Umbar without inside knowledge of the South, and Sauron's armies.

It explicitly states that Arwen only fell in love with Aragorn after those journeys. By your timeline, there would have been no season or betrothal in Lothlórien.

Aragorn has no reason to take another "great journey", and every reason to be in or close to Arnor.

With Gilrean; the text does not go in a linear line, there is nothing to keep her in Rivendell for another 30 odd years, and the structure and grammar of the parapraph prove my timeline.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 11 2015, 5:01am

Post #25 of 28 (2907 views)
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I think you may be being too literal. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... your first paragraph says, they cannot be reconciled without changing Appendix B. It states:


Quote
TA 2957-80: Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor.


It is explicit - his great journeys were only in those years. As Aragorn says in FotR: "I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange."

Even. Aragorn stresses the distance. It would be long and tiring, and would take a significant amount of time - thus being a great journey.



I have a problem with your use of only. Just because Aragorn journeyed into the South and East during the period from 2957 to 2980 does not mean that this was the only time he did so. That is a big assumption that is flat-out contradicted by Appendix A. In any case, Aragorn is speaking above from many years later; it could easily encompass the period immediately following the year 2980 in addition to his earlier years. Also, there is another twenty-one years following his time in Gondor that gives him sufficient time for great journeys.


Quote
Aragorn could not make the raid on Umbar without inside knowledge of the South, and Sauron's armies.



I pointed out in my last post that Aragorn not only could have, but probably did, travel to the South with Gandalf in the years before his errantries in Rohan and Gondor. Appendix A specifies that they journeyed together (and also, Aragorn alone) many times during that exact period. That could have furnished him with a working knowledge of Umbar.


Quote

It explicitly states that Arwen only fell in love with Aragorn after those journeys. By your timeline, there would have been no season or betrothal in Lothlórien.



Yes, there was a period of travel during that time. It was before Aragorn served King Thengel of Rohan. Tolkien wrote that Aragorn traveled both with Gandalf and alone. He also specified that Aragorn also traveled far into the East and deep into the South "where the stars are strange") after he left the service of Gondor in the year 2980; these travels also had to follow his visits to both Lothlorien and Rivendell, also in 2980.


Quote
Aragorn has no reason to take another "great journey", and every reason to be in or close to Arnor.



Evidently he felt otherwise. In addition to being in contact with people of far countries, both good and evil, he was also spending time rooting out plots of the Enemy and his servants. That seems like a worthwhle goal.


Quote
With Gilrean; the text does not go in a linear line, there is nothing to keep her in Rivendell for another 30 odd years, and the structure and grammar of the parapraph prove my timeline.



I disagree. This entire section of the manuscript represents a sequence of events that places Gilraen's return to her own kindred several years after Aragorn and Arwen's betrothal. This reads so clearly to me that I can't see any basis for debate.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 11 2015, 5:11am)

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