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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 22 2015, 11:38am
Post #1 of 12
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Porches - Bag End and Rivendell
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Here's something that was originally to be part of the upcoming chapter discussion of "Council of Elrond" (The read through resumes 29 March, and we start Council of Elrond 5th April). But it's a minor if amusing detail, and we have so much else to cover then, so I thought I might ask this now.
And it's gone quiet in the Reading Room...too darned quiet Carruthers...
Early in The Council of Elrond, there’s a very sketchy description of the “porch” in which the meeting is to take place, and a list of who is there. I remember being a bit confused by this “porch” as a child - from my experiences (1960s and 1970s, a life amid English town buildings) a porch was a small sheltered area outside the entrance to a building. It would be something designed as protection from the rain and wind while you dealt with wet or muddy gear before entering the house; or to shelter callers who are at the door. (If that usage is unfamiliar in your locale, try googling “english victorian porch” and looking at the images to see the kind of thing that Tolkien might have seen all around him in real life.)
Bag End, as drawn by Tolkien (The Art Of The Hobbit, Hammond & Scull) has something similar to that kind of porch- the door is drawn recessed into the hillside somewhat, providing a small sheltered area.
And textually in “Three’s Company” (FOTR) the hobbits pile their packs in the porch whilst making final preparations to abandon Bag End. So it seems that Bag End has a porch of that kind.
I would be ridiculous to hold a large meeting in such a place, so I’m supposing that in Rivendell, we’re dealing with architecture suitable a warmer climate - perhaps like porches (or "verandas") Tolkien might remember from South Africa, or holidays in Italy?
So I was wondering - How do you envisage this “porch”? Is it an odd choice of word, and (if deliberate, as it usually is in Tolkien) why is the word "porch" deliberately used instead of options that might suggest something more spacious (such as veranda, balcony, terrace...)? Might that be because we're supposed to be reading an account transmitted via hobbits, and they used the closest word their own vernacular had?
 Or is there a closet car theme - Book I ends with a Ford, and now we've got a Porsche?
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Morthoron
Gondor
Mar 22 2015, 1:40pm
Post #3 of 12
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There are porches, and then there are porches...
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I think Tolkien used the simple term "porch" regarding Rivendell because it is in keeping with the idea that it was "the last homely house". The size of the house was perhaps grand in scale but surprisingly homely and not obtrusive to the eye. I know my relatives in Ireland and Italy who live in cities have a much more intimate view of a porch (a small raised slab of concrete or stone at the threshold of the door that they scrub obsessively), but a porch to Tolkien is a porch, no matter the size, and I'm not sure the word "veranda" (a Hindi or Portuguese word, depending on the etymology, and not imported to Britain till the 19th century) would be in keeping with his limiting words to a certain geographical designation.
In the old etymological sense of "porch" (from Middle-English via Old French and originating in Latin), it is a covered walkway between columns (the Italian portico), or an arcade, which is a might grander than a sensible Hobbit porch. In any case, porch seems to be used in keeping with the idea of a homely house, not a palazzo.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Mar 22 2015, 1:40pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 22 2015, 3:27pm
Post #4 of 12
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Thanks - wow, great minds really do think alike!
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(You and squire both posted similar, helpful answers with similar titles, simultaneously!)
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 22 2015, 3:29pm
Post #5 of 12
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Thanks - a portico "porch" would make sense of it.//
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 23 2015, 12:06am
Post #6 of 12
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I think of it as a veranda in Rivendell
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or a 3-sided room open or semi-open to the outside. But I agree with Morthoron on the limitations of word choice:
In any case, porch seems to be used in keeping with the idea of a homely house, not a palazzo. There were a lot of people on that "porch," so it had to be a large area and not the narrow porches I think of in the US, including in large southern plantation houses, where there were large outdoor porches that still were not very deep--you couldn't hold a council on a traditional porch unless everyone was sitting on little stools side by side.
Though it's strange how that chapter ends, with Elrond joking that Sam wasn't invited to the "secret council." Who the heck holds a secret council open to the outside???
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 23 2015, 12:26am
Post #7 of 12
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...were supposed to stay indoors and watch TV.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Mar 23 2015, 1:26am
Post #8 of 12
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Perhaps they got bored watching that certain cartoon....
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You know, the one where Glenn Yarbrough sings that obnoxious song about Fro-o-o-o-d-o-o-o of the Nine Fingers!
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Mar 23 2015, 9:35pm
Post #9 of 12
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I'm surprised nobody has picked up on the fact that Tolkien was English.
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He's using words in a typical English manner - mundane everyday terms describing extraordinary things. Bilbo lives in "a hole in the ground". Rivendell is a homely house; The goblins live in Goblin Town and have a front porch; the chapter headings - An Unexpected Party and Flies and Spiders make it sound like he goes for a walk after tea and gets bitten by creepy crawlies; There and Back Again doesn't sound like a dangerous or exciting adventure - it's more like what I say when I pop out for milk. The bleak ledge by the secret door to Erebor which leads to a hollowed out mountain, huge piles of treasure and a dragon is called a "doorstep" etc. etc..
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Merovech
Bree
Mar 24 2015, 12:43am
Post #10 of 12
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I noticed this tendency back when I first read LotR (in Dutch, no less). I love that style and how it grounds his world into something real, almost tangible.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 24 2015, 1:16pm
Post #11 of 12
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Frodo, in the Conservatory, with The One Ring
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Perhaps a "sun porch"?
Sam led him along several passages and down many steps and out into a high garden above the steep bank of the river. He found his friends sitting in a porch on the side of the house looking east. Shadows had fallen in the valley below, but there was still a light on the faces of the mountains far above. The air was warm. The sound of running and falling water was loud, and the evening was filled with a faint scent of trees and flowers, as if summer still lingered in Elrond's gardens.
`Hurray!' cried Pippin, springing up. `Here is our noble cousin! Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!'
'Hush!' said Gandalf from the shadows at the back of the porch.
-Many Meetings
Whatever it is, it seems deep enough for Gandalf to hide in the shadows in the back.
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No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Mar 28 2015, 7:58pm
Post #12 of 12
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Wow texting on their iPhones...
Might makes Right!
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