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Arandir
Gondor
Mar 17 2015, 7:49pm
Post #1 of 29
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I think there's more to the Sauron vs Galadriel "fight" ...
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After some stunning and (admittedly, over-the-top) action sequences in the trilogy, I cannot comprehend how Peter Jackson missed a golden opportunity to show his artistic vision on an impressive combat piece.
We know Jackson isn't someone who shies away from such an opportunity ...
At this year's Comic Con, the director stated that "Galadriel gets to kick Sauron's ass, a little". What we got was a series of disorienting images flashing back and forth between the Eye and a dark Galadriel.
This may have been the "a little" Jackson was referring too, but something's still bothering me.
I'm thinking of that shot in the second trailer:
In the finished film, Sauron doesn't seem to appear in such a physical form; instead, the staircase explodes to reveal the ethereal forms of the Dark Lord and the Ringwraiths (all forming one giant burning eye). Don't get me wrong, up to this point, the Dol Guldur sequence was masterfully shot and edited.
However, I missed that beautiful trailer shot of an imposing Sauron, as if he is about to climb down the stairs with the air of an unconquerable bully; but I can't understand how it might possibly feature in the extended cut.
Galadriel is already drained of her power at that point, so when would the theoretical Galadriel vs Sauron skirmish occur?
Which has led me to believe that this unseen shot was a quick render done by WETA Digital simply for the purposes of the trailer.
And yet, yet ...
We've heard (and read) many times how Benedict Cumberbatch was also involved in mocapping the Necromancer (not just the voice). The only instance of possible ise of mo-cap for Sauron, is in the shot when he emerges out of the shadow to confront Gandalf (film 2); a quick shot that could have easily been done by anyone - even PJ himself.
So why the emphasis on mocapping the Necromancer? Marketing purposes? Certainly a possibility.
Having given us a taste of a more physical confrontation in The Desolation of Smaug, with Gandalf battling Sauron as an overwhelming cloud of shadow, I would have expected Jackson to increase the spectacle of the visuals for this third and final film.
This subplot was building towards an intense climax which promised to built upon what was shown in film 2.
Perhaps I'm guilty of asking too much; but after the simply brilliant Elrond and Saruman fight against the Ringwraiths, I was expecting something less psychological/telepathic between Sauron and Galadriel; a moment which feels more like a cheap shortcut to a much more promising, and unrealised, set-piece.
Perhaps the scene in the theatrical cut was only a quick alternative; the original sequence having been delayed until not enough time was left to finish all the visual effects shots needed.
I still hope for something better, more physical and concrete; less intangible and certainly much less disorienting.
I have spoken! 
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
Why we Love 'Sherlock'
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'
(This post was edited by Arandir on Mar 17 2015, 7:49pm)
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erdildeniz
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 8:28pm
Post #2 of 29
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There should be a Saruman vs Sauron scene.
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That's the biggest dissappointment. Especially when you think Saruman was tge one who drove Sauron out.
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BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 8:44pm
Post #3 of 29
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there is definitely more to this than appears. Remember in some of the movie guides, before the films release, we heard about Galadriel being 'tempted' and using the 'language of the enemy'. This suggests a much longer scene perhaps. In the Weta chronicles book it talks about Dol Guldur affecting Galadriels appearance, slowing turning her into the 'drowned woman' we see in the final cut. Maybe in the EE we'll see a longer Galadriel vs Sauron scene with all the additions that we've heard about?
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MechaGodzilla
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 9:02pm
Post #4 of 29
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I think and hope there's much more to this scene than we saw in the theatrical cut (which seems to be supported by the heavy use of stock footage), and I hope we'll get it in the EE.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 17 2015, 9:04pm
Post #5 of 29
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Philippa Boyens hinted at more material related to the Three Elf Rings in the EE, so hopefully that plays into a more fleshed out confrontation at Dol Guldur.
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Arannir
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 9:40pm
Post #6 of 29
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This plotline didn't deliver at all.
So much build up leading nowhere. I wished they had used the fact that the masters of the Three, One and Nine were all I'm one place for once.
Forces clashing that go beyond anything typical for what we have seen so far... And all we get is Samarra from "The Ring" yelling at a flaming eye with editing that make it all look so... uninspired!
Even the great ideas feel so rushed, meaningless and badly executed... Particularly the recitation of the ring verse and the arrival of the Council.
I hope the EE can help here... While many of my issues cannot be fixed by the EE this scene certainly has the potential to receive some major improvements.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Mar 17 2015, 9:42pm)
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TiberiusOgden
Bree
Mar 17 2015, 10:04pm
Post #7 of 29
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Definitely there must be more ... ;o)
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"When they part in An Unexpected Journey, Galadriel makes Gandalf a promise: ‘If you should ever need my help. I will come.’ She fulfills that promise in The Battle of Five Armies when, at Dol Guldur, the Wizard confronts the Necormancer. As in The Fellowship of the Ring, the filmmakers opted to explore, once more, a surprising aspect in Galadriel’s character. ‘It’s almost,” says Cate, ‘as if you cannot have good without the threat of it being challenged and even taken over to the dark side, as if you can only know shadow when you know light. Peter wanted to give a shadow to Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings, and he really went there in The Hobbit. He referred to it as ‘psychic distress’, that sense of a war within, that internal battle between one’s dark side and one’s better self. In coming to Gandalf’s aid, Galadriel has to grapple with the seductive power of the Necromancer to draw other beings into a void of darkness, despair, and decay. She has to summon every particle of her strength to resist and, in doing so, we see Galadriel’s incredible power and realize that -but for the finesse and strength of her spirit- how quickly that power for goodness could be turned to evil.’
An astonishing moment in Galadriel’s struggle with the Necromancer is when she uses the language of the enemy. ‘Unlike Elvish,’ says Cate, ‘Black Speech is thick, harsh, and very gruttal. It’s completely unexpected and shocking that such a sound would ever emerge from her mouth…"
(This post was edited by TiberiusOgden on Mar 17 2015, 10:11pm)
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TiberiusOgden
Bree
Mar 17 2015, 10:16pm
Post #8 of 29
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Philippa Boyens hinted at more material related to the Three Elf Rings in the EE, so hopefully that plays into a more fleshed out confrontation at Dol Guldur.
Guardians of three is not complete in the theatrical version, there are some passages which were not implemented. The best example is the music point like in the Fellowship of the ring when Galadriel returned from Dark lady back to normal. So it means that even fight music between them is removed for TC.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 10:28pm
Post #9 of 29
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I really hope that the Dol Guldur scene is not just significantly expanded, but also significantly changed
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Of course there is precedent for that, with the Dol Guldur scenes in DoS significantly changed with the addition of Thrain, but what I hope (probably in vain) is even more significant changes. Dol Guldur was both one of the parts of the film that I was most looking forwarded to, and absolutely the part that I was most disappointed in.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 18 2015, 2:16am
Post #10 of 29
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If they don't get rid of that lazy shot of Radagast from AUJ, I'm going to be really upset. They had the longest amount of post-production time for this movie out of the whole trilogy. Shortcuts like that are just inexcusable.
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Mar 19 2015, 4:51am
Post #11 of 29
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It's too late to edit things out now....despite what we like and what we don't like ..so
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let's just hope that...
...There was more than just one Orc that came to kill Gandalf in the cage, and Galadriel blasted a few of them away = what a a waste of energy just for one orc..lol
...There was indeed a mental battle as to why Galadriel was on the floor in a middle of an intense battle (not so smart), with the intent of Sauron wanting to win her over his side...there was no reason for Galadriel's power to be weakened at this stage, and healing him should be almost next to nothing for her...
...Saruman finding the palantir somewhere in Dol Guldur
..Radagast fighting at least some orcs in and out of Dol Guldur
...Showing some kind of plot how Elrond and Saruman got in undetected by Sauron
to say the very least..
...
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Mar 19 2015, 9:55am
Post #12 of 29
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Saruman plucks the Palantir
OFF the Statue
after Galadriel & Elrond have gone.
This Statue is the Center of many of the Shots,
yet? many disagree with Bomby
{Since it's Not Canon}
YET? Once Sauron has Fled
This Part of the Statue begins to Glow
Saruman reaches out for it...It plops into
His Hands, therefore beginning Saruman's Downfall...
Gandalf has REALLY Surprized in FOTR that Saruman had one,
SSOoo it make sense in Movie-Universe.
Okay jus' an Idea
Nothing more.
Bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Mar 19 2015, 1:35pm
Post #13 of 29
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It isn't what the book quote actually says. The book specifically says that "we" (i.e. the White Council) drove Sauron out.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 19 2015, 2:27pm
Post #14 of 29
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It isn't what the book quote actually says. The book specifically says that "we" (i.e. the White Council) drove Sauron out.
Tolkien did write that the devices of Saruman were key, but he never explained exactly what that meant.
To Bombadil: There isn't any reason to think that Sauron kept a palantir at Dol Guldur; and the Orthanc-stone was always at Isengard according to book-canon.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 19 2015, 2:29pm)
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TiberiusOgden
Bree
Mar 19 2015, 3:12pm
Post #15 of 29
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We have completely the same thoughts.
But regarding of Saruman and Elrond - their arrive is typical "movie arrival". I suppose that there will be little bit longer fighting sequence. Maybe two, three seconds for Witch king.
Concerning interaction between Sauron and Gladys (according to information that B. Cumberbatch has some "moving" scenes with Necromancer and that he has more dialogues in Botfa ... and on the other hand C. Blanchett talked about seducing and that she uses black speech - I think that it should be after rescuing Gandalf from the cage and before Radagast's arrival. Either way - it is reason of why she is so exhausted and lying on the floor.
Radagast in the lower levels will save Beorn. I think that it will be quite funny. It is definitely filmed.
"Old Bolg issue" - Yes, it is definitely edited:
1) Auroras (or something like that) ... it was artificial and unnatural.
In the Weta concept art is passage about Nenya, that she protects Galadriel through flashes of fallen elves.
2) She definitely wants to say something to Bolg - and these words are reason why is Orc too angry and immediately attacks her ;o) ...
Overall, there are many obvious cuts.
(This post was edited by TiberiusOgden on Mar 19 2015, 3:17pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Mar 19 2015, 4:03pm
Post #16 of 29
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I would actually be very supportive of it being found in DG as an EE scene (if that fitted the film).
Whilst I agree that is not its history in the text, within the films themselves I think this alternative would open up DG as a more nuanced story thread and go some way towards touching upon aspects of Saruman's fall which are absent from the films (studying the dark arts too deeply, pride in his own power etc.)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 19 2015, 4:09pm
Post #17 of 29
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Radagast in the lower levels will save Beorn. I think that it will be quite funny. It is definitely filmed.
Well, Beorn is never established as being at Dol Guldur. Unless that changes in the extended edition, I doubt that this scene will appear.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Mar 19 2015, 4:17pm
Post #18 of 29
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It is almost without a doubt filmed.
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One of the earlier "behind the scenes" featurette had Gandalf and Radagast saying something in Dol Guldur with Gandalf mentioning that "He must be rescued." Though as I said, I feel that plot is gone now... But Radagast does show up at the Battle with Beorn in tow, so perhaps he could still rescue Beorn?
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Mar 19 2015, 8:03pm
Post #19 of 29
(2268 views)
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WHY have a Statue CENTERED on Screen
{The Main Feature in this Plaza}
That Galadriel carries Gandalf to...
while the NINE Close in her...WITHOUT making this
Statue have
SOME
Significance..?
It sure looks like
Someone holding a Ball {Same Size as a Palantir} &
STARING into it...
SURE it's NOT Canon, but we talking about a
Movie Version of
MiddleEATH..
not the Book.
This Reveal...also Allows more Magic to happen the
"truncated" ...Dol Guldur Scene.
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Mar 20 2015, 11:37am
Post #20 of 29
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ONE more Reason..for the Statue?
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WE have seen a Statue with a Spirit inside..
When Radagast enters DG... one has it's Armored Hands
Clinch it's Fists,
before the Witch King Appears
Over another
One.
SSOoo when Sauron is Banished & Saruman
"uses his devices..?"
This Statue begins to crumble & Revealing
A Palantir inside?
Jus' Speculation
Nothing more.
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Imladris18
Lorien
Mar 20 2015, 1:09pm
Post #21 of 29
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There's also the LEGO set that has Beorn at Dol Guldur.
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So it makes sense that it was a plan at one point.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 20 2015, 2:25pm
Post #22 of 29
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So it makes sense that it was a plan at one point.
I certainly do think that placing Beorn at Dol Guldur was considered. I can even follow the reasoning. On his way to summon the White Council, Radagast encounters Beorn and asks for his aid; or the Skin-changer decides to intervene on his own. Heck, Beorn might have even followed the Wizards, much as he followed Thorin and Company to keep an eye on them and his ponies. I am not certain that any footage of that was shot before the idea was abandoned, but I am guessing that the change was made when the High Fells sequence was moved to the second movie.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 20 2015, 2:27pm)
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AshNazg
Gondor
Mar 20 2015, 2:59pm
Post #23 of 29
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Radagast and Beorn was supposed to be a flashback...
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In Beorn's introduction in DoS, Gandalf says "perhaps you know my colleague, Radagast?" And Beorn gives him a knowing look.
Later we see Beorn's chains as he explains how his kin were captured. This originally lead to a flashback where he's being tortured in Dol Guldur and gets rescued by Radagast. (Radagast then finds the Morgul Blade and is chased out by bats)
It's been cut and we won't see it in the EE.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Mar 20 2015, 2:59pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 20 2015, 4:50pm
Post #24 of 29
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Yes, if that were to be included then it should have been in TH:DoS. It's a fair bet that we will never see it except as part of a documentary or as an extra feature.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Arannir
Valinor
Mar 23 2015, 8:42am
Post #25 of 29
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... I never knew that.
It is strange how for TH almost every alternative I hear of they had in mind looks and sounds so much better than what we got 
I assume that was part of the two movie treatment, considering Radagast would have entered the story much later?!
It seems I was really wrong in being a champion of the trilogy decision for so long.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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