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Legomir
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 3:47am
Post #1 of 121
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TBOTFA Pick-Ups
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This is probably a question that won't be definitively answered until at least the Extended Edition of the third film, but can we speculate or confirm at all what was filmed as pickups for BOTFA? The only obvious thing to me is the Mount Gundabad stuff, but I'm not sure. I've even heard that most of the battle wasn't filmed in the original shooting schedule. Anything known?
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Dcole4
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 4:14am
Post #2 of 121
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I think most of the film was shot during pick-ups. The only exception being some of the Laketown attack, which was shot early, Dol Guldur, and most (but not all) of the location stuff for the Lakeshore sequences in the beginning. It's likely that perhaps some of the early Dale sequences were shot during the original block as well.
Everything else was shot during pick-ups. In the Lakeshore sequences, the pick ups included the Kili/Tauriel scene, the Gundabad mentions, and the scene in which the Woodland Elf enters.
Dol Guldur seems to have been cut down drastically from what was originally shot, they likely kept the bare bones version of it, knowing they couldn't get the costly actors back to reshoot any of it.
Laketown Attack, most of this was part of the original shoot. The coldness of Tauriel is a result of her original (IMHO better) arc that would have kept her as a cooler warrior type. I don't think much has been tweaked from what was originally shot.
Can not wait for the extended cut, it seems a lot of really great dramatic material was cut out this time.
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Legolas_Shoehorn
Bree
Mar 17 2015, 7:10am
Post #3 of 121
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I think the entire Ravenhill Scene...
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... with Azog, Bolg, Thorin, Bolg, Legolas, Tauriel and so on, was completely done during Pick-Ups.
Every scene with a highly green-screeny fake look 'smells' like an afterthought-shot-during-picks-ups-scene.
Perhaps in the two Movie Version the fight between Thorin and Bolg (yes, Bolg - remember two (!) movie version)
would have take place in the midst of the battlefield.
And then Beorn enters the scene and ... oh man ... we' ll never see how Beorn is doing a Hulk/Loki thing with Bolg ("Puny Orc.") 
My English is not that good, my Elvish is better ;-)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 7:45am
Post #4 of 121
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I think much or part of Ravenhill was filmed in pick ups at least. I know Aidan and Dean's final scene ever on the movies were in the tower together so that's certainly a pick up.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 17 2015, 10:56am
Post #5 of 121
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There were quite a few pickups,
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in 2013 (DOS & BO5A) and 2014 (BO5A). So anything during those periods was a "pickup" since principal photography officially ended in 2012. The majority of the battle and Thorin's death were filmed during the 2013 pickups, and the majority of the cast also returned (inncluding minor cast members like Stephen Fry). Some of Lake-town was also a pick-up (notice Bain?) with two completely different storylines of the Dwarves hiding from The Master.
In 2014, most of the main cast also flew back to NZ for pickups. For definite, both Billy Connolly and James Nesbitt returned to shoot additional scenes.
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Mar 17 2015, 10:58am)
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Legomir
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 11:18am
Post #6 of 121
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But I've been under the impression, that it was always Thorin and Azog that the climax was building to, given Philippa Boyens' love of the character and story in the Appendices, even during the two-film version. They may not have shot it for whatever reason, but I'm not sure there was ever a time where Bolg was the "final boss" to use a really bad comparison. To my knowledge, Bolg was the Keeper of the Dungeons character in Dol Guldur, taking Azog's material there from DOS and then surviving the White Council attack and bringing another army of Orcs to Erebor, only for the Eagles to attack just like in the theatrical version, only here Beorn kills him. Again, correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not 100% certain of any of this.
Also, out of curiosity, which scenes do you consider to have a "highly green-screen fake look"? The only scene I thought looked like that was the Bard-on-the-carriage scene. Not criticizing you, just wondering.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 11:21am
Post #7 of 121
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I wonder whether when Dean and Aiden were originally cast, their scripts had them dying at Ravenhill in those ways, way back in 2011 or 2010. If so, I wonder why they never filmed it as part of the original shoot? Did they film any of it originally? Or did they have different deaths scripted, maybe even filmed, and then things changed in 2013? Again, not anything that can really be answered, but it is interesting, at least to me.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 11:22am
Post #8 of 121
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I had no idea that it was confirmed pickups were shot in 2014. That's really interesting; I wonder what all it was, particularly since James Nesbitt doesn't have much to do in the theatrical cut, which you'd think they'd have a vague idea of by that time. Maybe Billy Connolly did mo-cap work?
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Mar 17 2015, 11:28am
Post #9 of 121
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As Bofur is one of my favorite Dwarves in the trilogy I found his lack of screentime troubling, considering he had been a secondary main character, bonding the closest with Bilbo, gathering the Athelas and being the one to push Bard into helping Kili.
His lack of presence in Battle of the Five Armies is one of the marks against the film in my opinion, he gets very little to do. He still is the one who supports Bilbo, urging him to flee while Thorin is distracted by Gandalf. And he noticeably is tearing up when Bilbo says goodbye to the Company.
But Phillipa had originally said that Battle of the Five Armies would have "Bofur really come into his own." And we know that there's a battle scene planned (or was planned at one point) where Bofur would take on a troll all on his own.
But none of that made it into the final product unfortunately. I can only hope that the EE restores this to him at least. He and Fili were primary Dwarf characters and to see their roles diminished in the Theatrical Cut was a little saddening.
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Arannir
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 12:03pm
Post #10 of 121
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Bofur, the things PB said about him not that much prior to release and what ultimately ended up in the TE really belong to the things that make me question the planning process of this last movie (and the trilogy in particular).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Mar 17 2015, 12:03pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 2:05pm
Post #11 of 121
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The reason why I disagree with this is that in my opinion the beneficiaries of the focusing away from these characters are not Legolas and Tauriel (who still are secondary characters but always were going to get a lot of focus [as can be scene by how much attention was paid to them in the DoS publicity], which I believe is probably due as much to studio influence as anything else, though I can't prove it), but the two main characters, Bilbo and Thorin. Despite the distractions, BotFA is essentially a film about those two characters, and their relationship, and it works very well for me as such, again despite my niggling complaints about some of the clunky lines in the Kili/Tauriel/Thranduil/Legolas relationships, and some of the Alfrid humor (though my complaints about this film continue to be much more minor than my complaints about the other five films).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 17 2015, 2:14pm
Post #12 of 121
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The Ravenhill sequence as a later addition.
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I wonder whether when Dean and Aiden were originally cast, their scripts had them dying at Ravenhill in those ways, way back in 2011 or 2010. If so, I wonder why they never filmed it as part of the original shoot? Did they film any of it originally? Or did they have different deaths scripted, maybe even filmed, and then things changed in 2013? Again, not anything that can really be answered, but it is interesting, at least to me.
Pre-production art shows that at one time the crew was considering having Thorin fall in the thick of the battle as in the book, to be carried out by Beorn in bear-form. Presumably, Fili and Kili's deaths would have also been closer to how they happened in the book. The various making-of books (especially TH:BotFA Chronicles: Art & Design) makes it clear that the Ravenhill sequence was developed fairly late into production. It is a telling detail that on Thorin's map in TH:AUJ, Ravenhill is still located where Tolkien describes it, far from the ruins of Dale. Compare it to the map that Thranduil has in the camp (seen on-set in Brian Sibley's TH:BotFA Official Movie Guide and reproduced in Jude Fisher's TH:BotFA Visual Companion). Ravenhill was moved to be much closer to (and north of) Dale.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 3:53pm
Post #13 of 121
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It makes me sad to hear this sort of stuff. Just imagine how much more impact the deaths of Thorin, Fili and Kili would have had if they had kept it closer to the book. The line of Durin going out in a blaze of glory in the thick of the battlefield, with Thorin's nephews protecting him after he is mortally wounded. SO much more meaningful than the actual demises of all three characters in the final film.
But no, they just had to shoehorn those elves into everything and change the whole story. I only wish that someday we will get to see the original footage that was replaced in the final film. I'm sure it exists.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 4:25pm
Post #14 of 121
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It makes me sad to hear this sort of stuff. Just imagine how much more impact the deaths of Thorin, Fili and Kili would have had if they had kept it closer to the book. The line of Durin going out in a blaze of glory in the thick of the battlefield, with Thorin's nephews protecting him after he is mortally wounded. SO much more meaningful than the actual demises of all three characters in the final film.
But no, they just had to shoehorn those elves into everything and change the whole story. I only wish that someday we will get to see the original footage that was replaced in the final film. I'm sure it exists.
To know they were SO close to getting it right and instead they went with the wrong deaths! It's... so frustrating! It will never stop annoying me that they actually had a death where KILI was with his family, but they ended up going for the one where the damned dwarf is surrounded by elves in the end! Really rubs me the wrong way. Kili belongs with his family, not the elves.
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Skaan
Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 4:27pm
Post #15 of 121
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The death scenes are pretty good tbh
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I personally found the death scenes to have a lot more impact when compared to the book. Fili's death felt pretty haunting and dark. Kili's death may have been more cheesy due to the romance involved, but i still think it was well done due to the music and the fact that most people probably expected Kili to save Tauriel by killing Bolg, rather than Kili being killed himself.
Thorin's death was also perfectly done IMO. I liked how they had him say his last words to Bilbo on the battlefield, rather than him already being on his deathbed when talking to Bilbo (it gave some good visuals and felt more spontaneous this way).
So yeah, the movie deaths felt a lot more impactful and personal to me than the book deaths (which almost felt like an afterthought). My only complaint is the lack of Beorn, but i think most people would agree on that. So here's hoping the EE could fix this. They could still have Beorn arrive at Thorin's body and have Beorn carry his body back inside Erebor.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 4:52pm
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Just think how moving it would have been to have Bilbo told about Fili and Kili's deaths after the fact in a brief one line throwaway! Wow! I get teared up just thinking about it!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 5:03pm
Post #17 of 121
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Sarcasm alert. What I meant by keeping their deaths closer to the book was, I wish the film had depicted their deaths as they were described. I should have explained that better.
So yes, seeing their deaths as they were described in the book would have made for a great, emotional film sequence.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 5:11pm
Post #18 of 121
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Fortunately, what we got was a great, emotional film sequence.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 5:24pm
Post #19 of 121
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What you got was a great, emotional film sequence. Personally I found it to be contrived and tepid, a poor substitute for what could have been a more meaningful death scene (Kili & Fili dying while protecting their king and uncle, Thorin).
The filmmakers had three very long movies to endear us to Kili and Fili, yet their onscreen deaths weren't nearly as impactful as Boromir's in FOTR. And it would be worth noting that Boromir doesn't even show up until halfway through that film.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 17 2015, 5:53pm
Post #20 of 121
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...at the time there were plenty of criticisms of Boromir's death scene:
"Just three arrows??? What a wimp!!! He was 'pierced with many black-feathered arrows' in the book!"
"Why does he just kneel there for Lurtz' coup de grâce? He should have done something defiant like throw himself forward to trip him up!!"
"How dare they appropriate the words of Faramir's 'I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness' speech for the lyrics for Boromir's death!!!!"
And reportedly heard more than once in theaters: "Die already!!!"
I am not kidding.
Just shows to go what is "impactful" to some may not be so to others.
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 6:13pm
Post #21 of 121
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That surprises me not at all //
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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 17 2015, 6:37pm
Post #22 of 121
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I was really looking forward to seeing Bofur's arc in the final movie, but he was completely disregarded. And instead they elevated Alfrid and Legolas' roles... As much as I love BotFA overall, it feels like the focus shifted in such a strange way and (like others have said) feels almost disconnected from the other two films. At this point the story obviously isn't just about the dwarves anymore, which is fine, but it's like the rest of the company just disappears. It felt like the movie was edited by someone who hadn't even seen the first two.
I really hope the EE fixes this issue. One of the great things about the DoS EE is that the scenes do a good job of balancing out the story, especially the first hour or so. And even just a few extra minutes of good material in the right spot can change the feel of the movie. For example, Bilbo climbing above the trees was always a great moment in the movie. But to me, it didn't really feel like they'd earned that moment in the TE. Adding just enough new material to the Mirkwood sequence made it feel more like a journey rather than just a montage, and Bilbo's relief after having the sun on his face and fresh air feels more significant. The scene is the same, but I think additional context helps make the EEs special and more complete.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 7:37pm
Post #23 of 121
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What you got was a great, emotional film sequence. Personally I found it to be contrived and tepid, a poor substitute for what could have been a more meaningful death scene (Kili & Fili dying while protecting their king and uncle, Thorin).
People have to keep in mind that not everyone think what we got was emotional film sequence. In my case it doesn't mean I only have bad things to say of the movies in general (I love the two first ones and most up until Ravenhill in BotfA), but in this case I agree with goldeneye.
I do think Fili's death had an impact though because it was such a shocker and quite brutal. What disappointed me was Kili being pulled away from his family to die with those damned elves of his who he has known for what? A week top? And in slow mo and the cherry on top was possibly the worst quote from all six movies "Why does it hurt so much?" "Because it was real" OMG I couldn't believe it when I saw the movie the first time. And from Thranduil who I quite love. It wasn't his death scene per say but it was kili related afterall.
Thorin's death I liked too so it's Fili being ignored and Kili's cliched death that was just... NO. And to see how close they were to be truer to the book... that is quite the kicker.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 17 2015, 7:43pm
Post #24 of 121
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Well, the trouble with 'going out in glory in the thick of the battlefield'
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... is that the thick of the battlefield is a very confusing place with no glory on offer. Think of films with realistic battle scenes of a comparable period (in which swords are the principal weapons) and it can be hard even to identify the characters, the action moves so quickly.
Seems to me that the decision to move Thorin and his nephews to Ravenhill was primarily a visual one, to enable the camera to focus on their deaths without the chaos of a surrounding battle. I don't think it had anything to do with 'shoehorning elves': their presence changed nothing. Fili and Kili went forward because their uncle sent them, so the linking of their deaths with Thorin was maintained. The brutality of Fili's death in full view of Thorin and the others was stark and shocking. I don't see how it could have had more impact. Tauriel was there when Kili died but he ran into danger (against Thorin's orders) to avenge his brother. It may not have impressed ou, but I heard several people react in the cinema - presumably those who didn't know the story and were expecting him to get away.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 7:58pm
Post #25 of 121
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"the thick of the battlefield is a very confusing place with no glory on offer. Think of films with realistic battle scenes of a comparable period (in which swords are the principal weapons) and it can be hard even to identify the characters, the action moves so quickly."
Theoden had a terrific final scene on the battlefield in ROTK, from the Rohirrim charge to the fight with the Witch-king. His emotional farewell to Eowyn was perfect. Everything was focused on these characters despite the carnage of the Pelennor Fields around them.
"I don't think it had anything to do with 'shoehorning elves': their presence changed nothing."
I'm not sure we even watched the same movie...
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