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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 12:30am
Post #76 of 148
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"all have, by default, a right to their perceptions and opinions"
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Exactly, which is why, despite many times thinking "enough" when reading certain people's posts, I have never said so.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Avandel
Half-elven
Mar 17 2015, 12:34am
Post #77 of 148
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Beautifully summarized IMO - agree
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It's not that she's a girl. It's that her story shoehorned and derailed the plot, especially for key characters (Kili, Thranduil, Thorin) whose arcs are vitally important for this third act of the story.
E.g., what is labelled as "canon defilement" tho I am not wholly in love with canon. But, IMO, after reading and commentary from other TORn posters after angsting early on about how important the sister-son concept was, after reading of the cultural importance of the dwarven king - no, for me it was very hard to swallow that PJ & co. made a narrative alteration of that degree.
IMO that is well beyond "tweaking the fans". 
And IMO, for whatever reason, it didn't "work" anyway, in that I am not getting the impression that within fandom in general that by the end of BOFA, Tauriel/Kili are often viewed as a classic cinema pairing, a heartwrenching tragedy talked about the way the lovers in Titanic are talked about, and so on. As one critic described it, a "perfunctory" romance.
PS. And I could add "unusual hair" and changing the mindset of the more rigidly-minded (Thranduil) to the list.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 1:01am
Post #80 of 148
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More a mess in the book than in the movie
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What I called a mess wasn't exactly a geographical mess, but thanks to the maps, for they will show clear differences between the book and the movie
If your maps are correct, in the book the orcs attack are impressive but troublesome :
- If it's stated that the first one comes from the north east (after the orcs passed north of the Mountain), that means that the way they take in the end will be the same as.. the way which will be used by Dain's army coming also from the north east (The Iron Hills) ! How could both armies not meet and clash in the way before reaching Erebor ?
- The second one shows the orcs running down from the slopes of the mountain, after having climbed the volcano before !
But such move would have be exhausting ! And if so, why didn't they come directly from the NorthWest instead of taking the longest way to come
In the movie, things seem much different :
1) The first attack comes directly from Dol Guldur, which is in Mirkwood Forest, South of Thranduil's halls and South-West of Erebor
2) Only the second attack comes from the North-West (which is the more direct way from Gundabad)
The first point is that leaves space for both elvish and dwarvish armies to come, the first one from Thranduil's halls and the second one from the East, while Lake-Men arrive from the south.
The second point is that the first orc army had been prepared before by The Necromancer to attack either Laketown, either the Elves Kingdom, or both of them, by surprise and from the shorter way south or south-west, and that it just had to shift further north to reach dale/Erebor, after having learned that both the elves and men went there lately. On the movie they very clearly arrive in Erebor coming from the south, while Dain's Dwarves come from the North-East
That lets imagine that the second orc army had been most probably prepared to attack if needed after the first one had been sent. What is kept unclear is the role expected for the Dragon : did the orcs want to have him attacking the men in Laketown, or in Dale ? Most probably in Laketown. Did they want to attack the elves in their own halls, using the wereworms ? and then have the Dragon burning the elves if they flee out of their Kingdom ? Such attack would be possible from Dol Guldur.
The second wave of Orcs coming from Gundabad / the Northwest and through the western slopes of the Mountain, feels also rather logical, for it explains as well how Bolg could meet Azog after quitting Laketown, and how Legolas could ride north from the lakeshore in order to get to Gundabad, before Bolg's army gets out of its fortress.
Anyway, the maps end totally different than the one shown on your message.
____________
What I was calling a mess was the fact that the orcs/goblins/wargs decided to attack after being incensed by the killing of the Goblin King and after the news of the killing of the Dragon.
I wasn't then talking about geographics, but I was more eager to believe that they arrived mostly by waves in much disorder and from the Northwest (through western slopes of Erebor or by following the North End Of Mirkwood), rather than from the Northeast, because that was the shortest way if you come from the Misty Mountains and their surroundings.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 1:11am
Post #81 of 148
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Good for you. 
Actually, it is good for you.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Cirashala
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 3:36am
Post #82 of 148
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She ended up interfering indirectly with his death scene, when if kept to canon characters, she wouldn't have been there at all.
Her mourning Kili was verbal, and involved interaction with another character as well. The emotion and grief and audience connection with Thorin's last scene in the film, where the dwarves surround his body silently, was overshadowed by her scene. Her mourning scene was not placed very well, I think, in relation to Thorin's, therefore the natural emphasis and connection for the audience was on HER grief, not the company's at the loss of their king and friend (and kin, for some). I thought the dwarves surrounding Thorin's fallen body was beautiful, and there could have been a moment given to one of the dwarves to say something. Or not say anything- but it went by so fast to her scene, which took up far more time and went much slower than his. Therefore, her scene overshadowed his death, and her presence interfered with his final act.
I could also argue that Alfrid, a character created from only a single mention that the Master had "advisors", was an excellent foil for the Master- in DOS. And in some ways, he was a foil for Bard. But his presence in BO5A, while humorous, was overdone and also detracted from other characters. Would he score in the Gary Stu category on that test (which is called the MS litmus test, but is gender neutral in its questions)? I don't know. But I do know that I would feel it necessary to tick the box of "interfering with the progression of the story" because he does slow some scenes down.
And Azog- oh boy. He's a rather frightening Gary Stu as well, and I think we can ALL agree that his presence drastically altered the plotline
So my bias isn't just with Tauriel. I liked her as a character, up to the Lakeshore when she parted with Kili. At that point, her feelings were still ambiguous. And I liked her scouting mission with Legolas.
But once Ravenhill began, she went straight downhill into MS territory (with glimpses at it with the love triangle before). It's hard to really describe exactly WHY her Ravenhill counterpart rubbed me the wrong way, but I think it comes down to being inconsistent with her characterization. Being a writer myself (and a fan fiction one at that), I strive VERY hard to make sure characters are consistent in their characterization and presentation. If they grow in the story, they grow both gradually and realistically by being shaped with the circumstances around them.
I just find it really hard to believe the DOS Tauriel would have devolved into the person she became towards the second half of BO5A. A person should grow as a person within a story, by their experiences and their triumphs and losses. She actually lessened as a character as the story progressed, and that's probably what stood out so strongly to me that she ended up being a MS. It highlighted a very weak point in the writing in the story, and unfortunately it came at the worst time possible in the film- at the final, dramatic climax/focal point of the story in such a way that it detracted from those who played a major role in this final climax.
Thranduil did not flee the battle- he has more honor than that (yes, I know he has PTSD and that it's a very real disorder- my husband is attending graduate school for counseling and I myself suffer from it a bit from childhood). And it would make him relive some parts of the Battle of the Last Alliance, I'm sure. But he never tried to leave the battle in the middle of the fighting, and it wasn't one elf (well, perhaps two, as Legolas also openly defied him at that point) who persuaded him to stay. His own personal code of honor, not to mention the hordes of orcs between him and home, that led him to finish it through. Kili was supposed to die defending Thorin, I don't care how- but his OWN personal code of honor and kinship would dictate it, and it's for that very reason that Dis is the ONLY female dwarf named by Tolkien- because his and Fili's deaths through shielding their mortally wounded uncle with their own bodies was such a selfless, heroic act (and, though executed, Fili's death demonstrated this and was very much in spirit with it). Yet Kili does not die defending the uncle whom he disagreed with out of love for him (Tolkien did specifically say they did it because he was their mother's elder brother-he said nothing about them doing it because he was their king)- he dies helplessly pinned by one orc in defense of his new sweetie, who got herself in that position in the first place by calling to him while he was fighting two orcs at once (he could have been stabbed then and there- as a 600 year old trained warrior, she should have known better than to give both their positions away to the enemy- that's how Bolg jumped her). So by interfering in Kili's death, she caused him to not die defending Thorin, thus leaving Thorin alone to deal with Azog (whom DEFINITELY wasn't supposed to be there! At least Tauriel and Legolas COULD have been there- Azog was supposed to be long dead by then).
So I really cannot say much more on her derailing the plot, except that she definitely did, AND at the climax of the story (which is the most important part of a story, and culminates everything leading up to it and is the catalyst for resolution and the ending).
And almost everyone agrees that the best parts of the film were about the conflict surrounding the treasure and Thorin's descent into madness. You know who was coincidentally absent for the vast majority of it? Tauriel and Legolas. You know who just got back when the film began to turn sour? Yep- our dynamic elven duo
Call it what you will. If her characterization and affect on the plot didn't bother you, then I'm really glad for you- I truly am. You can watch the entire film and not be saddened (beyond grieving for the dead, of course) at what could have been for some scenes.
I think that Tauriel and Legolas (whom was my favorite in LOTR) had the potential to be something great, and very enriching for the tale. But through lousy writing and too tight editing, we ended up with a blond supermario who is a whiny, rejected, rebellious Gary Stu teenager, and a damsel in distress incompetent warrior angsty teenager in love but doesn't yet know it til the end elf maiden.
I found myself really missing the DOS Tauriel we got- if they'd only kept her characterization the way it was, and have her grow naturally as an elf maid and a warrior (and be believable at 600 years old, whom in theory would have already experienced, if not personally, the emotions of love and loss and death before, even the simple death of an oak tree or something- she wouldn't be new to the concept) and grow as a person.
I think personally that DOS Tauriel and BO5A Tauriel were two completely different characters- the writing speaks as much. And it's a true shame that DOS Tauriel ended up being the classic love triangle interference with the plot damsel in distress who suddenly seems to forget the basic rule of combat (DO NOT draw attention to yourself or give away your position, don't be stupid enough to point an arrow at your king who has several thousand years of experience with weaponry on you, don't distract someone engaged in hand-to-hand combat, etc).
She was the best OC that never was
And as a slight niggle to your end statement about Legolas helping Thorin- where the heck was Dwalin when Thorin needed help?!?!?! We didn't NEED Legolas there- Dwalin could have done the job if he hadn't gallavanted off somewhere to have a coffee break and watch the show... Or ya know, maybe Fili and Kili like in the book....ah well 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 17 2015, 3:39am
Post #83 of 148
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Dain's Dwarves force-marched the final leg of their journey to the Lonely Mountain in order to arrive before they were expected. They simply arrived before Bolg's forces and missed any sign of them in their hurry. Also, the Dwarves were arriving almost directly from the east and did not have to round the south-east spur of the Mountain. That same spur would have also given concealment to the goblins. The goblin army probably circled around in order to avoid Wood-elf scouts on the western side of the Mountain.
The second wave of goblins, attacking from the ridges, would have a short time to rest and regain their strength before they needed to attack; they would have also had the advantage of the high ground and surprise.
What I was calling a mess was the fact that the orcs/goblins/wargs decided to attack after being incensed by the killing of the Goblin King and after the news of the killing of the Dragon.
I don't see that as a mess; I find the goblins' motives perfectly understandable (considering that they are Orcs). In fact, Bolg's tactics are fairly sound in light of Tolkien's experiences in the trenches of the First World War.
Actually, I find the battle in the movie more of a mess, what with the giant were-worms, Trolls with prosthetic limbs, and such. The one really brilliant addition were the use of battle-flags to direct the Orkish forces.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 7:09am
Post #84 of 148
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I wouldn't underestimate the importance of appealing to 11-year old girls
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Which, in a sense, as PJ and Philippa have commented, Tauriel is. A character that they envision will appeal to 11-year old girls five years from now.
I was pretty young when the LOTR films were coming out. I loved the films for a lot of reasons. However, I do wonder what the films would have been like for my early-teen self had Eowyn not been included. (Arwen too often made me roll my eyes-- she's not particularly aspirational.)
Even when reading the books, Eowyn existing *at all* was extremely refreshing. I have to admit, having a female presence meant a lot to me as a female young adult. I don't think the 11-year old girl consideration is the worst thing in the world.
Many - including critics - describe Tauriel as "refreshing". I do not, re the link I referenced and other essays, viewing her more as - well, folks don't want labels so I will use an adjective - UNORIGINAL with a character and physical characteristics I tend to run into in YA fiction, fan fiction, and Disney films (except there the character can usually sing, too). And I don't feel it was a character worth changing a story to that degree simply to accommodate the addition - e.g., for me, it didn't work, and has more of the feeling of a YA film stuffed into the Hobbit film.
The "refreshing" part is entirely contextual. It's refreshing to finally have a woman of significance in the Hobbit story. Eowyn may not be the most original character, but after one film of almost ALL men (and two briefly-appearing otherworldly women), Eowyn's arrival was extremely welcome.
In some ways, Eowyn is a worse YA/Disney cliche than Tauriel: She's actually a princess, is skilled with a sword, is attractive, blond, Aragorn is attracted to her for a time, she disguises herself to go to battle (never seen that one before!), and she gets a happily ever after with a good-looking dude. (Hey, we all know Faramir is a dreamboat. End of story.)
I don't see Tauriel as a Disney/YA cliche at all, or at least, I don't see this as a problem. Tauriel comes off as more of a Katniss than a Cinderella. And that's fine by me. If she is a cliche, they're drawing on the right tropes at least.
Add that Tauriel is not nobility. She's working class. She starts out as a "disgruntled employee". She doesn't get a happy ending.
Physical characteristics can't really be blamed. She's an elf. They are all pretty and highly skilled in something. Name one elf who isn't. It would be inconsistent for Tauriel to not be both pretty and skilled. To include a character without this "cliche" physical/skill traits, she can't be an elf.
They could have expanded a role for a Lake-town woman, but I'm not sure how plausible a wider inclusion in an action-driven story would be, of if it would be any less "cliche" than Tauriel. And if they made her more ugly, people would probably complain that she didn't look like an elf.
I agree that Tauriel sort of fell apart at Ravenhill- bad editing and bad dialogue combined. A lot of things fell apart in these films, especially when it came to editing- it wasn't just Tauriel.
From your issue with the "YA stuffed into the Hobbit movie" problem, I suspect your issue with Tauriel has more to do with the romance subplot than her actual personality or non-Kili motivations. For me, the Kili/Tauriel thing didn't get annoying until "because it was real", the crowning moment of bad dialogue.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 17 2015, 7:23am)
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Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 7:43am
Post #85 of 148
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Where was Dwalin? Combing his beard??
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And as a slight niggle to your end statement about Legolas helping Thorin- where the heck was Dwalin when Thorin needed help?!?!?! We didn't NEED Legolas there- Dwalin could have done the job if he hadn't gallavanted off somewhere to have a coffee break and watch the show... Or ya know, maybe Fili and Kili like in the book....ah well
I really wasn't crazy about Legolas's involvement. I would have much preferred more Dwalin in action.
I actually preferred changing Fili and Kili's death in the film, though! Fili's death was downright chilling, and I liked its role in the dramatic progression of Ravenhill. He doesn't die defending Thorin's body, but he still does die trying to accomplish something for his uncle. In that sense, it's true to the book.
Kili's death is way more debatable. I like that he died being reckless on a vengeance rampage-- tragic payoff for the reckless-Kili setup. Strongly disliked that Tauriel distracted him and gave away her position, drawing Bolg. Would have been greatly improved through less awkward slo-mo.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 8:01am
Post #86 of 148
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Story Telling Not Battle Strategy
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I was referring to Tauriel amongst others impact on story telling not the presentation of the Battle or how it should be prosecuted. That is a different topic and includes the decision to bring the Lake Town people into the battle zone.
In story telling terms It made sense for the key antagonist to have a one on one fight with Thorin so the absence of Dain (who is about the future and the future co operation with Bard) and Beorn who is a myth laden creative who has been much affected by the growth of evil out of Dol Gilder and the torture of his people and belongs to D.G. makes sense to me.
When you look at the end of the much grander quest story of the LOTR the battle at the black gate was remarkably simple because it was held to be a decoy for Frodo.
For me the redemption of Thorin and the igniting of the flame of his heroism with the company finally standing four square behind him bursting out of Erebor and scaling the Ravenhill to meet his families nemesis was a story which is big enough to stand on its own.
To show as a sub plot that this acted as an example, a catalyst for a final elected heroic co operation between Dain and Bard and Bard and Legolas in the final moments of the battle is another big story and full fills a now becalmed Gandalf designs for the North.
You then bring those two elements together in a glorious zenith as we witness the sanctification of Thorin at his funeral by a new alliance of friends. This for me is the profound message, conclusion of the book which seems to be absent from the film.
Once done you then reduce the story in scale through the presentation of the necklace to Thranduil and an offer of tea at Four and head back to where we started profoundly changed but knowing we have not been conquered by the Arkesntone but that our greatest trial lays ahead to release the ring which is already having a perverse effect on our behaviour.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Mar 17 2015, 8:05am)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 9:10am
Post #87 of 148
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One thing which has been satisfactory nailed is the toxicity of greed
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It affected Thorin of course, but not all the Dwarves (Balin for instance stayed free of it), but also Thranduil in a certain extension, for he left his kingdom mostly to get his necklace (believing it was for the remembrance of his beloved). But that is another whole subject.
Returning to Tauriel and Legolas, I think Tauriel has been fairly used as a catalyst for Legolas to reveal that in the core he was free of greed, and accessible to escape from isolationism, even if in the beginning he is shown rather cold, senseless and aligned to Thranduil's views, having seemingly not much other interest than his own overlook on Tauriel. Surely she helps him getting off Thranduil isolationism, but would it have been better and more Tolkienesque if Legolas would have evolved solitary on that way ?
That operation is also important for ME storytelling, because Legolas gone, Thranduil also gets drawn out of his own perverted isolationism and will get himself able again to take part of ME future. Tauriel re-opened his eyes too, even at the price of a seemingly lame sentence (Thranduil is touched by Tauriel's morbid grief in which he recognizes his own)
I can't understand why so many people grunt about Tauriel's (and Legolas') presence at Ravenhill. Wouldn't they be there, it would have meant that none, save the dwarves, fought the orcs chieftainry. Military speaking, would it be logical ? Dwarves sent their best fighters (including Kili and Fili), and also did the Elves... but only under the drive of Legolas, who acted as a leader and chose not to let the dwarves be alone in this attempt. (distinctly from his father, who would have let the dwarves die, and helped only the men)
Nobody suspects that Legolas helped Thorin for he loved Thorin. Why then suspect Tauriel to help Kili only for the sake of Kili's love ? That would be sexism. In my view, both her and Kili tried to destroy Bolg mainly because they saw in him a very dangerous ennemy for their own kin. The fact that the young dwarf died trying so is perfectly in line with his destiny's canon. None of the two went to get the other 'beloved one' out of the fight, except - for one second - Tauriel when she yelled at Kili to prevent him running to his death because she - military speaking - felt that he was too weak and so, surely getting directly to his own suicide, and because she was convinced that she would better handle the fight (even at the risk of her own life).
Tauriel's yell can be seen as a female/mother reflex, possibly more disturbing than effective on a battlefield, but it can also be perceived as a yell of military command, that would have saved Kili if he had immediately obeyed it like elves usually obey to such military instructions (it sounded like a 'Halt !)
For me, the ambivalence of its meaning and its outcome is a truly great moment of storytelling, right in the line of the many other ambivalent stances that P Jackson and co are known to cook for their public.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 10:24am
Post #88 of 148
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Tolkien stated the battle was a mess
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..I surely wasn't meaning that Tolkien messed his battle-telling.
Following the book canon, Peter Jackson could have filmed the battle as a mess, but clearly he didn't want to, and chose on the opposite to deal with a battle initiated strategically by the orcs ('long in the making', according to Gandalf) more than a wild rush initiated by Smaug's death.
A strategic construction is more interesting to film and clearer to watch than a mess.
What is interesting also is that Gandalf says to Thranduil that he obliged Sauron (and Azog) to reveal themselves after he asked Thorin to reclaim Erebor (even if we may ask ourselves if Azog was not the one who ignitated all when he sent everywhere a call for Thorin's death)
Briefly said, in P Jackson's vision, which is the movie, strategy (from Azog for the most part) plays a greater role than in the book - mostly because Azog is alive in the movie, but dead in the book.
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Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 12:04pm
Post #89 of 148
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Yes to all of this, Milieuterrien
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Nobody suspects that Legolas helped Thorin for he loved Thorin. Why then suspect Tauriel to help Kili only for the sake of Kili's love ? That would be sexism. In my view, both her and Kili tried to destroy Bolg mainly because they saw in him a very dangerous ennemy for their own kin. The fact that the young dwarf died trying so is perfectly in line with his destiny's canon. None of the two went to get the other 'beloved one' out of the fight, except - for one second - Tauriel when she yelled at Kili to prevent him running to his death because she - military speaking - felt that he was too weak and so, surely getting directly to his own suicide, and because she was convinced that she would better handle the fight (even at the risk of her own life).
Exactly. I don't see Tauriel as greatly altering Kili's destiny. He dies for a few reasons. The BIG one is that he flies into a rage over Fili's death and goes into a solo fight-- even if you're a purist, or just preferred the brothers over Kili/Tauriel, this should make you happy (or sad. whatever).
The second reason is that he takes on Bolg. Taking out Bolg is important to the mission, and Bolg had a target on all the Durins. Bolg might have sought out Kili either way. Also, he and Kili have a past history (remember who shot him in the knee?).
Tauriel seemed concerned that Kili was fighting many orcs *alone*. She calls for Kili *before* Bolg takes her out. Maybe she messed up, but it was clearly her intention to draw Kili away from danger rather than towards it. Having Kili retreat from his solo rampage and fight with someone else would have been a safer approach. Note that he doesn't run to Tauriel when she calls his name, only when he hears her yell in pain (I think).
After Fili dies, Thorin runs off calling Kili's name. Was he as wrong as Tauriel? (Maybe. Maybe not.)
For that matter, Fili and Kili are about as much to blame for Thorin's death as Tauriel is for Kili's. Fili gets himself caught and dispatched (much like Tauriel, just without dying), and Kili charges into battle recklessly. This is what draws Thorin closer to Azog (I think largely in defense of/trying to find Kili.)
Battle is messy and people die. What can I say? I can't be too hard on Tauriel here without criticizing Thorin, Fili and Kili, or holding her to a double standard.
Nobody suspects that Legolas helped Thorin for he loved Thorin.
Legolas and Thorin was wuv, twue wuv. :P Obviously. I have no beef with Legolas story substance here, only with his style. I thought returning Orcrist to Thorin was a really swell thing to do.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 17 2015, 12:11pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 17 2015, 1:47pm
Post #90 of 148
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Jackson may have improved on the battle in some ways...
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I will agree that Peter Jackson did introduce more complex motivations for the attack on Erebor. Sauron wanted the Mountain for its strategic position (an idea introduced in Tolkien's essay "The Quest of Erebor" but not acted upon in The Hobbit). Azog hated the Line of Durin and would have also wanted revenge for the loss of his arm.
It's the execution of the battle that could have been improved upon. Supposedly, the goblins of the Misty Mountains were also present at the Battle of Five Armies (according to members of the Weta crew), but their presence is not really felt in the movie. The Were-worms are a clumsy device. They are used to good effect in that they allow Azog to make a surprise entrance, but one would think that at least one of them would have been used to bring down the defenses of Erebor. Some of the creature designs are just plain stupid (and not just the worms; I'm looking at YOU, Troll with amputated arms and legs). Even the bats were not used to the best effect. Of course, I'm still grumpy over Jackson relocating Ravenhill after already showing it on Thorin's map where Tolkien originally described it. If he needed an old watchtower located closer to Dale then he could have just invented one from scratch (if you don't believe me about this then check out Thranduil's map of Lonely Mountain that can be found in Brian Sibley's TH:BotFA Official Movie Guide and in Jude Fisher's TH:BotFA Visual Companion).
I was anticipating something that could have taken the same general form as Tolkien's verson of the battle. I thought that Bolg might have been sent first to the Misty Mountains to gather the goblins there (still incensed over the death of the Great Goblin) before mustering the Orcs of Gundabad. His foces would have emerged from the Grey Mountains to reinforce Azog's army, much as the second and third attack waves did in the book, with the Misty Mountain goblins and Wargs attacking from the ridgelines. I'm not entirely sure that something like this doesn't happen in the movie, but it is hard to tell.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 17 2015, 1:57pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 4:09pm
Post #91 of 148
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For me raising the Ravenhill, literally in the way they did was superb. It all most feels like a stage set for a great drama.
For 100 years Azog/Bolg has been on a dreadful crusade to destroy this particular line of Durin (Note it has never been explained why but lets leave that). Azog/Bolg decapitated Thror tortured Thrain to Thorins certain knowledge. When returned to his state of grace he sees Azog atop the hill he takes his nephews and Dwalin who gave Bolg a hell of thwack outside Moria. This is deeply person stuff. Azog/Bolg have a second army ready to slaughter the Dwarves and the remaining free peoples but they want those guys themselves. We have been building to this for seven hours so much has been invested in this since Weathertop. A Dwarf /confrontation to end all confrontations no Dain, he is doing the future, no Gandalf, his unconscious mind tells him he has done enough to get where want to be. No Bard BUT suddenly we have Orlando Bloom added to the script in 2013 and Bolg 2 created as his fight buddy.
I can think of many ways of dealing with Thranduils isolationism and Tauriel's march toward understanding how to deal with the outside world, something her forebears of Ossirand and Doriath both struggled with, in a a more mythical philosophical manner than finding simply it hurts and leaving Ravenhill for us all to weep uncontrollably at the death of Richards Thorin and his cousins .
PS I did anyway but more tears would have been fine by me. I am an emotional junkie.
PPS So I love Tauriel 2011/12 and she should as I said up the thread stay by the Lake. Legolas defies his father and rushes with the intel to the aid of Dain and Bard who reposition their army to protect the Ravenhill which is symbolic and in the end not needed when our friends from the sky turn up.
I only make suggestions out of desire to be positively critical and probably because I have a curious sense of belonging to M. E. For me you do not have shoehorn Legolas in and yet another CGI fest you can thread him into the plot and move him from behind his father to out there ready for Rivendell.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Mar 17 2015, 5:14pm
Post #92 of 148
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*Bows* IMO you make very good points, well-spoken! (:
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I have to admit, having a female presence meant a lot to me as a female young adult. I don't think the 11-year old girl consideration is the worst thing in the world.
No, it is not. Definitely not. I tend to forget - for myself - the earlier threads re AUJ bemoaning the unrealism of never having blades that dispatched a warg have the least hint of a sticky smear, and more recently the filmmakers commenting on "how much had to be cut to keep the PG rating".
Point being, whether I like it or not, the filmmakers were determined to keep these films for a broad audience.
Physical characteristics can't really be blamed. She's an elf. They are all pretty and highly skilled in something. Name one elf who isn't. It would be inconsistent for Tauriel to not be both pretty and skilled. To include a character without this "cliche" physical/skill traits, she can't be an elf...And if they made her more ugly, people would probably complain that she didn't look like an elf.
LOL!!! Well, this entire thread had me revisiting about why, more specifically, the Tauriel character bothers me so much - seeing as re certain things, I am quite happy with her - she is believably athletic, for one thing - slim and strong looking - and I quite like the knife fight in DOS at Bard's. The chemistry between EL and AT and interchanges can be very good. At times, the character looks quite beautiful.
And I was thinking re some earlier posts - well, for me it would have been interesting - an overweight elf, a scarred or maimed elf - would have been different, anyway.
From your issue with the "YA stuffed into the Hobbit movie" problem, I suspect your issue with Tauriel has more to do with the romance subplot than her actual personality or non-Kili motivations.
Yes. Although I don't loathe romance - one of my quibbles with LOTR is what I see as a neglect of the Faramir/Eowyn story, the coming together of two scarred people, which I thought was far more interesting than Aragorn/Arwen.
But to the degree romance was brought to in BOFA - and the speed - and considering Kili was both very ill and delusional through DOS - no. I suppose re the DOS healing the whole point was that Kili was supposed to have been able to see briefly another plane of existence - an unseen world - but as was discussed re the healing scene, it crossed into cheese in DOS for me.
So Kili is healed and is now in love with Tauriel, and she has strong feelings for him. For me, no. Ironically, IMO, if the interchange had been more subtle, I could have believed it. Something that had real potential, given time - as you say, for me, the execution of this IMO was pretty heavy-handed. And messy even - does Legolas leave because Tauriel is in love with Kili?
Although, again, I imagine it's something young audience members could relate to. Boy + girl and they fall in love - that's what is supposed to happen.
But that's the thing - there's no way I know, without an international poll of the younger audience, to know currently, or in 5 years, whether these young girls will even be watching the Hobbit movies, or care. So why change key concepts in a well-known narrative, when you have no way to predict whether your major change to canon had the effect you want? And alienate a portion of the audience old enough to hold credit cards?
So that's one frustration. Another being so much focus on elves, aside from Thranduil. BOFA is a success, true. But I don't remember re AUJ and even reading posts from before I joined TORn, folks saying "you know what these movies will need? LOTS of elves!!!!!
For me, the Kili/Tauriel thing didn't get annoying until "because it was real", the crowning moment of bad dialogue.
Well, yes, for me, that entire interchange - well, I had a bad time in theaters, bitter thoughts drifting though my mind, thinking of what might have been  , vs. a scene and dialogue so dreadful to me, that I started digging in the popcorn or my bag, anything to distract myself, and debating internally whether it was worse than the the DOS healing scene...
Anyway. I thank you for this interchange *bows* and for overlooking my emotional state and discussing point by point - very good! Having those disks so close to being in my hands - it's something I am really looking forward to.
Because I can't wait to see all up close, being able to replay - for all my dissatisfactions, there is a huge amount of great stuff in BOFA . Even Tauriel - who I can readily believe would take on orcs with her knives, and she does.
And I need to try to remember, best I can, the Hobbit movies may not have been made, and it was PJ & co. and all those 20-hour days that made them happen. They may not have happened at all, at least not with this vision and impeccable cast.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 5:26pm
Post #93 of 148
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At first sight I wasn't myself comfortable with Azog showing himself on top of Ravenhill because my own expectations were that Ravenhill had been occupied first by elf army in order to battle against Thorin and Co.
That is for showing the distance between oneself expectations and what comes on screen
My conviction is that talking about a movie made has as much to deal with movie-making as with the movie material, and I can't urge myself to judge a writer or a movie-maker since I am neither myself. My private struggle is to trying and understand why they did what they did. Only when I feel I understand it, I feel free to appreciate it.
Pete Jackson's movies came as a great deal for me not only because they inaugurated a trilogy-rule in the making, but also because they packed themselves with all the 'how-we-made it/why-we-made it" in the DVDs or the blogs. And there is so much material there that i really can't find much interest in what were my own expectations. I see them like clouds burgeoning in the sky before dissipating as soon as changes the wind or the hour. I can't even take a picture of my expectations, the most I can do is trying to put some words on them.
When the movie comes, I physically feel my expectations are blown away and all I can do then is looking at the new visual landscape and trying to explore it, whatever it is. People may shout 'Baaad CGI' and things like that, what does count for me is what I see on screen. But I admit expectations exist and they tend to colour the feeling.
Thus, I confess that at first sight (and until now my only sight of the movie) I kept being disturbed until the end of the movie by Azog showing himself at Ravenhill, but that was nothing else than my petty cloud of that early december day. By now that cloud has obviously begun to dissipate, blown by the recollection of the images collected on screen.
What was very unexpected by me is the progressive quietness of the battle in Ravenhill. I had imagined that Thorin would have been caught in an inferno in the core of the battle downhill, only to be discovered afterwards alongside his nephews, agonizing in the middle of many, many, many other corpses. So, WTF was that iced river ??? And this silence all around ? And Bilbo alone to mourn him ? Badabum-that-was-non-canon !!
Was my beloved expectation lost forever ? Yes. Would I have to cry with anger ? No. Because my expectation stays in my memory, and there came another story looking as a hill to climb from the point where I was. So it's like a new trip, and fortunately I quite like trips.
Who came to Ravenhill ? Why did they get up there ? How ? When ? What happened to those who climbed ? And to those who will leave Ravenhill ?
At one moment there seemed to be nobody up there, except Thorin and Bilbo, and soon after, Bilbo alone.
At that moment, no news, even of Tauriel, Legolas, Dwalin, surviving orcs or anybody else. Exactly at a point where my own expectations had been waiting for a crowd of survivors, like in the aftermaths of the Moria, of Helm's Deep, of Isengard, of Pelennor Fields, of the Black Gate, there was nothing else than Bilbo. To my disturbance because I like wide panos full of souls. That's maybe why I didn't hurry to come and understand that point, even three months after, so distant from my expectations.
And I can't be sure to know when I will reach that point, or even if I will, or even if I want to. For the moment I'm kinda supposing that someday I'll be shoe-horned in it, and that's more a frightening idea than a pleasant one.
Even if I like trips.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Mar 17 2015, 5:38pm
Post #94 of 148
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And very clearly written - nice!
I thought the dwarves surrounding Thorin's fallen body was beautiful, and there could have been a moment given to one of the dwarves to say something. Or not say anything- but it went by so fast to her scene, which took up far more time and went much slower than his.
Except for me, Tauriel's scene wasn't believable anyway, re poor dialogue in particular - so for me it isn't so much an overshadowing, but a terrible contrast in a short time frame between magnificent performances and script (Thorin/Bilbo) and feeling bad for EL and LP, having to get through it.
Yet Kili does not die defending the uncle whom he disagreed with out of love for him (Tolkien did specifically say they did it because he was their mother's elder brother-he said nothing about them doing it because he was their king)- he dies helplessly pinned by one orc in defense of his new sweetie, who got herself in that position in the first place by calling to him while he was fighting two orcs at once (he could have been stabbed then and there- as a 600 year old trained warrior, she should have known better than to give both their positions away to the enemy- that's how Bolg jumped her).
For me, poor execution - that bothered me from the first, that Tauriel would be screaming for Kili - especially when she is supposed to be a trained ninja-type warrior - e.g., stealth. And she kind of already knew where Kili was - she had seen him.
And almost everyone agrees that the best parts of the film were about the conflict surrounding the treasure and Thorin's descent into madness. You know who was coincidentally absent for the vast majority of it? Tauriel and Legolas. You know who just got back when the film began to turn sour? Yep- our dynamic elven duo
ROFLOL!!!
Thanks for this. But - in something of fairness? - well, since there is other discussion along this line - I will suggest if Legolas and Tauriel in BOFA have scenes that are more action-oriented and/or less in depth - perhaps, the thing is - they weren't supposed to have scenes of gutwrenching psychological tragedy?, in that their characters were more geared toward a younger audience.
E.g., I might be fascinated by RA's stunning portrayal of dragon sickness, but imagine to a younger audience it is more of a frightening thing - or - not as interesting as Legolas hanging from a bat, as that is something younger audience members could relate to? As is crying over your prince's body.
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marary
Lorien
Mar 17 2015, 5:50pm
Post #95 of 148
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Yes. Although I don't loathe romance - one of my quibbles with LOTR is what I see as a neglect of the Faramir/Eowyn story, the coming together of two scarred people, which I thought was far more interesting than Aragorn/Arwen.
Faramir/Eowyn is the phenomenal on the book. The best reason to watch the ROTK EE is because they portray this romantic development so beautifully. With very few words. But they get the tone and meaning *exactly* right. For me, it was clear Eowyn wasn't just rebounding with Faramir. She was very changed from Theoden's death and the black breath-- Aragorn wasn't really on her mind. And I rather like that they find each other in grief and lift each other out of it. That's beautiful. My favorite ME couple, actually. :)
But to the degree romance was brought to in BOFA - and the speed - and considering Kili was both very ill and delusional through DOS - no. I suppose re the DOS healing the whole point was that Kili was supposed to have been able to see briefly another plane of existence - an unseen world - but as was discussed re the healing scene, it crossed into cheese in DOS for me.
I'm with you there. There was a lot of potential for these two, but it was rushed to overwrought proportions without enough development.
So Kili is healed and is now in love with Tauriel, and she has strong feelings for him. For me, no. Ironically, IMO, if the interchange had been more subtle, I could have believed it. Something that had real potential, given time - as you say, for me, the execution of this IMO was pretty heavy-handed. And messy even - does Legolas leave because Tauriel is in love with Kili?
The glowing was really a bit much. Ugh. I liked the idea of Kili letting his feelings slip in his delirium, but it was written a bit sappy. AT did deliver it beautifully, however.
I totally bought Kili falling fast and hard for Tauriel after the healing scene. Some characters are guarded and resistant, but a wonderful thing about Kili is that he's open and wears his heart on his sleeve. Also, he's just been through quite a lot emotionally and physically. He already had a crush on Tauriel, and now she's his savior. Also living through a dragon attack together. Kili's all-out declaration of love by the time they part on the lakeshore made sense.
But also note that when Tauriel refuses his invitation, he does NOT stay behind with her, even though he guesses she returns his feelings. He know where his place is. It's real love, for him, but not yet strong enough to trump family/people. So it's still pretty believable. (Main offender line: "you make me feel alive". Without that line, this scene would have been perfect.)
Tauriel is still pretty resistant of her feelings. She obviously feels strongly for Kili, but can't admit it because she has way more at stake than Kili. Immortality is a big issue for her. Kili is less likely to lose his place in the world over the romance than she is (debatable, but that's what I think), and I think Tauriel has a better understanding of how difficult it would be for an elf/dwarf couple. Kili says he's "not afraid". Well, he should be! Her resisting and declining is believable. I would have been troubled if she did otherwise.
Ok, so far so good with believability, apart from some corny lines and questionable choice to have Tauriel glow.
If I had to pinpoint where the relationship development went totally off the rails, I'd say it actually comes after Kili dies. I really dislike the relationship after BOFA first viewing. I wonder if I would have warmed up faster were it not for the hollywood corn played over Kili's dead body. (I was also wondering "where's Fili? Does no one care about Fili??" the whole time, so that didn't help.)
I quite liked Tauriels' stiffly delivered, "They want to bury him", line. She's in shock. It's a thing that makes sense for her to say about a guy she has feelings for but barely knows. I thought the line reflected some shock we were all feeling at that point. It was somber without being overwrought... Then it all spirals downhill into the "why does it hurt so much?" disaster of bad writing.
Anyway. I thank you for this interchange *bows* and for overlooking my emotional state and discussing point by point - very good! Having those disks so close to being in my hands - it's something I am really looking forward to.
Because I can't wait to see all up close, being able to replay - for all my dissatisfactions, there is a huge amount of great stuff in BOFA. Even Tauriel - who I can readily believe would take on orcs with her knives, and she does.
It's been real fun! *salute*
I was pretty bitter about these movies when they came out. It's amazing how much I enjoy them and the characters now, in spite of the many flaws. Funny thing. :P
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 17 2015, 6:01pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Mar 17 2015, 6:16pm
Post #96 of 148
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I had watched the Beorn section before but must have been short of time and forgotten the next couple of sections.
A couple of observations I was told that Ryan Cage wasn't actually at the Lakeshore but there is brief picture of him in a cast tent at Lake Pukaki.
The description of Lake Town as a trading centre when they discuss its peoples had me thinking that the Dwarves entrance by subterfuge which has been niggling away at me felt a little out of place.
To your central point as with all the "Fabric" of these movies its astonishing what went into the "Making" of the films and I have nothing but admiration for those guys in Wellington. When i was at the Embassy last month they had a display cabinet of Bifur and Bofurs costumes absolutely exquisite.
Thanks again.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 6:33pm
Post #97 of 148
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We certainly are in agreement about this point.
Back in the day, when discussing the LOTR films (which to me are even more flawed than the Hobbit films, though I love them overall) on a different forum, I came up with a term that I thought better described my view of the films than either of the commonly prevalent terms that were used at the time, purist versus revisionist. The term was "transcendentalist". For me, the astounding effort put into these films and the highs that they reach (and I consider it this equally true about both trilogies) that they transcend their flaws. So even though the flaws are present and quite obvious to me, they just don't matter all that much.
Interesting, when I recently rewatched BotFA on a digital download, the word that kept occurring to me is one that you like to use a lot: mythic. There are so many mythic shots in that film, such as Thorin sinking into the floor of gold, his emergence after his self-healing with the burning light behind him (I so love that shot), the ice-fields of Ravenhill, the wonderful shot of the eagles as Thorin gazes out with his last dying breaths, and so much more.
You are, I'm sure, familiar with Tom Shippey's discussion of The Hobbit in The Road to Middle-earth in which he discusses the importance of the contrast between Bilbo as a modern type of hero with Thorin as an older type of hero, and the relationship between the two. BotFA captures that so well, indeed focuses on that to the extent that it gets criticized for not completing other storylines. For me, that makes it work very well indeed. I know that your mileage -- and that of many others -- varies.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 17 2015, 7:27pm
Post #99 of 148
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There are many other transcendentalists across the internet.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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