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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 20 2015, 9:08pm
Post #126 of 148
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marillaraina says that Kili and Tauriel don't face any issues all the mixed race couples didn't also face. That is fundamentally true, except for one thing, but it is a biggy. All of the mixed race couples in Tolkien's legendarium are comprised of children of Iluvatar. There are none that consist of a child of Aule mating with a child of Eru. Even Gimli's love for Galadriel is presented in such a way that it is obvious that there could never be a coming together of the two of them. That is the fundamental difference between this love story and the mixed race love stories that Tolkien presents. All of the other distinctions pale in comparison.
And yet Illuvatar essentially accepted Aule's creations by allowing them to live instead of nipping it in the bud almost before it started?
IMO that has no bearing on Kili and Tauriel's relationship in the films anyway. I think one of the whole points of their relationship is that there is the potential for ANYONE to have this, it's precisely because they are at that time, apparently, unique. Everything has to start somewhere, if things had happened slightly differently there is no reason to think it wouldn't have happened with them. There is a first time for everything, no reason that Kili and Tauriel would not have been that first time, if Kili had lived. Both of them have the personalities and character to make that happen and to be those "trailblazers" so to speak.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 20 2015, 9:19pm
Post #127 of 148
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I'm still wondering about:
It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife.
-An Unexpected Party
******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!
-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 20 2015, 9:20pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 20 2015, 11:09pm
Post #128 of 148
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Since Hobbits are considered a type of human. (Of course, Tolkien's original conception was that the rumor was that it might have been Goblin blood, but that is a different story.)
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 20 2015, 11:21pm
Post #129 of 148
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As Eru says in the manuscript entitled "Of Aulë and the Dwarves" (which was enclosed in a paper wrapper bearing the words Amended Legend of Origin of the Dwarves and used by Christopher Tolkien in the constructed second chapter of the published Silmarillion, "Of Aulë and Yavanna"), "and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice." The implication to me of this (and all through Tolkien's writings on the Dwarves, once their place was established beyond the mostly evil creatures that they were in the earliest conceptions) has always been that there is an immutable separation between the Naugrim and the children of Eru, whereas there is a certain connection between Elves and Men, the First Born children of Iluvatar, and the Followers.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 20 2015, 11:58pm
Post #130 of 148
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As Eru says in the manuscript entitled "Of Aulë and the Dwarves" (which was enclosed in a paper wrapper bearing the words Amended Legend of Origin of the Dwarves and used by Christopher Tolkien in the constructed second chapter of the published Silmarillion, "Of Aulë and Yavanna"), "and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice." The implication to me of this (and all through Tolkien's writings on the Dwarves, once their place was established beyond the mostly evil creatures that they were in the earliest conceptions) has always been that there is an immutable separation between the Naugrim and the children of Eru, whereas there is a certain connection between Elves and Men, the First Born children of Iluvatar, and the Followers.
But see I don't take that Eru saying HE puts that separation between them. To me I interpreted that as meaning(because he's Eru, he knows this stuff lol) there would be strife between them because of the kinds of prejudices beings have - the Elves due to the fact that they feel the dwarves are sort of...interlopers and not entirely natural and the Dwarves due to feeling like outcasts because of the circumstances of their creation. Elves are like birth children and dwarves are the foster kids and the elves are like "What are they doing here? Really? Do we have to?" and the dwarves are like "Oh you wanna make something of it?"
Notice Eru says "OFTEN strife", not ALWAYS strife. I would say that means these things can be overcome. It is not necessary for it to happen but it often will. But often is not always.
In any case, IMO, Eru's statement is not about his own intention but what he understands about the nature of the beings who will live in his creation. I don't believe he's thinking "Yeah I want them to have nothing to do with each if I can help it" but "This makes things more difficult because of their own flaws and weaknesses".
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Mar 21 2015, 12:20am
Post #131 of 148
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I became side-tracked by the question of how you describe Tauriel's Elven lineage.
I do not know about you but I would never want The People of Middle Earth to be viewed looking back toward them through the Lens of our worlds values but whether it is consistent with the Music.
Dwarves I am reminded believe after death that Mahal gathers them into Mandos to halls set apart.
This is quite different to the exceptional unions that have occurred between the firstborn and the second born where choices are made by both Elf and Man as to their fundamental kind which both being children of Eru is possible .
It is said Mahal declared that Iluvatar will give the Dwarves a place among the children in the end.
Put simply a union of the children of adoption and the children of choice of Iluvitar will not happen until the end of time. If the fates drove a child of Aule and Iluvitar together in union then this would be a matter of such significance that Kili and Tauriel would find themselves caught up in the fates of Arda in the same way that Beren and Luthien were. But whereas they ( B & L) were able to elect to follow a path after death and be together a Dwarf and an Elf cannot. Their love in death would come to nothing.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Mar 21 2015, 1:22am
Post #132 of 148
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If one of the Ainur can mate with one of the First Born, anything is possible. 
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Mar 21 2015, 6:55am
Post #133 of 148
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My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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squiggle
Rivendell
Mar 21 2015, 2:53pm
Post #134 of 148
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Is it not just a one step seperation of Destiny that
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Tauriel and Kili share together.
A mutually benefical elevation if you will, Tauriel has quickened Kili to the stars and Kili has now started the broadening of Tauriel's star constellation that she is now able to incorporate her star power in middle earth ( not as a such a seperate thing as before) for greater reach within and without. Maybe Tauriel can now provide the ceremonial star light magic through her greater connection & powers via her integration of Kili's fate into her greater panorama of star light essence and fill the void for Thranduil that he was trying to ameliorate via the star light necklace? 
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 21 2015, 7:36pm
Post #135 of 148
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I became side-tracked by the question of how you describe Tauriel's Elven lineage.
I do not know about you but I would never want The People of Middle Earth to be viewed looking back toward them through the Lens of our worlds values but whether it is consistent with the Music.
Dwarves I am reminded believe after death that Mahal gathers them into Mandos to halls set apart.
This is quite different to the exceptional unions that have occurred between the firstborn and the second born where choices are made by both Elf and Man as to their fundamental kind which both being children of Eru is possible .
It is said Mahal declared that Iluvatar will give the Dwarves a place among the children in the end.
Put simply a union of the children of adoption and the children of choice of Iluvitar will not happen until the end of time. If the fates drove a child of Aule and Iluvitar together in union then this would be a matter of such significance that Kili and Tauriel would find themselves caught up in the fates of Arda in the same way that Beren and Luthien were. But whereas they ( B & L) were able to elect to follow a path after death and be together a Dwarf and an Elf cannot. Their love in death would come to nothing.
And yet Gimli was able to go with Legolas. Yes I know the ring blah blah but none the less it was something unexpected and it happened. A dwarf sails west with an elf. Neither he nor Legolas suffered particularly much for being among the company - not like Frodo did. I mean they suffered hardships and danger but so did a lot of people. Yet look at that reward.
So who can really say what would have happened or what choices they would have been given had Kili lived and they'd been able to be together, esp as if Kili lived(and esp if Thorin and Fili did as well) - it may have been KILI who joined the company and not Gimli, you never can tell. Even if he didn't, who is to say that Tauriel and Kili may not have been rewarded themselves for their own parts? Maybe their very relationship coming into existence would have been reason enough to give them their own choice. Maybe the guildelines exist but just aren't known yet because there has never been need of them before.
Or maybe being together in life and then having to wait until the end of time would be something they'd be willing to do. Maybe they'd be ok with the idea of living on earth for whatever time they have, then joining in their kin in their respective afterlives until the end of time when they could be reunited.
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Lorien
Mar 22 2015, 2:51am
Post #136 of 148
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Dogs and wolves are the same "species" in a biological sense-- genetically similar enough to produce viable offspring through mating... but the chances of this happening outside of controlled conditions is rare for a bunch of other reasons (lack of contact, mating times, pack dynamics, dogs are domesticated and generally become prey instead of pack members... etc.)
I sort of see dwarf/elf pairings the same way. A union would be possible. But due to many other differences and separations between the races, the chances of the question of union, children, etc. coming up are so slim, hence the lack of precedent. But also nothing concrete to indicate that it's impossible.
I wonder what dwarf/elf hybrids would look like...
Or maybe being together in life and then having to wait until the end of time would be something they'd be willing to do. Maybe they'd be ok with the idea of living on earth for whatever time they have, then joining in their kin in their respective afterlives until the end of time when they could be reunited.
Oh dear, Tauriel and Kili would have had many troubles had Kili lived. (Or not!)
Had Kili been the last survivor of the line of Durin and become king... well, I think he actually would have been pretty good at it-- provided Balin or someone helped him with diplomacy/tact/thinking before he speaks . He's altruistic and seems immune to gold/dragon sickness. He might even respond well to having leadership suddenly thrust upon him, like young Thorin (who was a better leader in exile, granted).
As King Under the Mountain, he'd really be in position to make the world a better place and the kingdoms of the north in stronger alliance (granted, Dain's alliance with the Men of Dale was rather good). But ruling in Erebor and being with Tauriel at the same time might be impossible. What would Kili choose? And for that matter, what would idealist Tauriel rather Kili choose?
I do like the idea of these two roaming Middle Earth in exile together, though.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 22 2015, 8:52pm
Post #137 of 148
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I do like the idea of these two roaming Middle Earth in exile together, though.
Absolutely : the Two roaming in Middle-Earth fighting isolated evils or whatever mischiefs brought by usual antagonisms between races would have been a lovely outcome for their kind of feelings. To begin with, we can expect that none of them would have kept their place into their own community, because dwarves wouldn't have accepted any elf-maid among them and Kili's will to become King alone wouldn't have match his desire to join with his banished love interest. (Tauriel would have stayed banished by Thranduil, who wouldn't have seen her weeping 'true' for Kili).
In the end, they even might have ended the way Legolas and Gimli ended (taking the last ferry for Arda), for Kili wasn't that much older than Gimli, and the couple's deeds would have earned respect among the elves through their solitary years.
Anyway, that makes Kili's abrupt death especially tragic for Tauriel's character : she loses all, in and out. Ending with a war where many lives are lost, Tolkien's Hobbit is a saddening fairy tale. Having one lovely character (Tauriel) losing forever a burgeoning promise concentrates some of the tragedy of all other losses (dwarves killed, Lakemen & women killed, elves killed)
If you read Jack London, you'll find out that interspecies unions may be not that rare (between Huskies and wild wolves, size and shape doesn't differ much), but size may indeed take its prize : I wonder what would be the dynamics in the wild among an English Bulldogs pack, meeting a lone Greyhound.
What I find enjoyable in Pete Jackson's adaptations, is that when they don't find answers in Tolkien's works, they don't hesitate to look out of Tolkien, but rather look into our true world than add pure chimaeras : see Thranduil's Megaloceros, Radagast's rabbits, Dain's ram. Realism is never out of their sight : I remember having had a chicane two years ago on a french tolkienites website, where they didn't want to hear anything else than having dwarves fighting with... poneys, just because Tolkien never talked about anything else than poneys. In my view, poneys would never make it, and I'm so glad the kiwis dared forging battlerams.
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Lorien
Mar 22 2015, 9:08pm
Post #138 of 148
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Anyway, that makes Kili's abrupt death especially tragic for Tauriel's character : she loses all, in and out.
I have to wonder. In the movieverse where Kili dies and Thranduil acknowledges her love for the dwarf... does he lift the banishment? Maybe not. Maybe Legolas brings her along on his ranger adventures. Maybe Tauriel's banishment was the reason he "could not go back." I kinda think Tauriel stayed banished.
In the end, they even might have ended the way Legolas and Gimli ended (taking the last ferry for Arda), for Kili wasn't that much older than Gimli, and the couple's deeds would have earned respect among the elves through their solitary years.
That's probably what would have happened, which is such a lovely thought. There's two possible scenarios for Kili that may be equally possible.
1) He feels the weight of responsibility of Thorin's hard-won reclamation of Erebor and decides he must take up the crown to honor his fallen uncle and brother's sacrifice.
2) He is clouded by survivors guilt, grief, and feels he can never be king because he is not Thorin, or his better-groomed-for-leadership first-born brother. He chooses to pass the crown to Dain's capable hands, opting for a bit of happiness roaming around with Tauriel. (I'm sure it would be with much protest from Dwalin, Balin and co. Maybe Oin would be supportive!)
Through BOFA, Erebor and his heritage were actually more important to him than Tauriel. First he tries to have both Erebor and Tauriel, but Tauriel refuses the invitation on the lakeshore. But he doesn't stay behind with her, and he could have. He didn't; he chose to continue to Erebor instead.
But losing two big ties of family and heritage (Fili and Thorin) might change a lot. And suddenly being confronted with possibly-unwanted leadership... A life of wandering with Tauriel is suddenly a lot more appealing.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 22 2015, 9:22pm)
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Mar 22 2015, 10:23pm
Post #139 of 148
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But losing two big ties of family and heritage (Fili and Thorin) might change a lot. And suddenly being confronted with possibly-unwanted leadership... A life of wandering with Tauriel is suddenly a lot more appealing.
True...but don't forget he still has his mother. Eventually she would made it to Erebor. Considering what little we know of her and the way he speaks so fondly of her in DOS, I think - hope - that he would think of her as well before making such a decision.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 22 2015, 10:51pm
Post #140 of 148
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Through BOFA, Erebor and his heritage were actually more important to him than Tauriel. First he tries to have both Erebor and Tauriel, but Tauriel refuses the invitation on the lakeshore. But he doesn't stay behind with her, and he could have. He didn't; he chose to continue to Erebor instead.
Interestingly, the movie team placed on the lakeshore a sentence that went nowhere only because Kili died : "You make me feel alive".
Kili went to Erebor mostly to help as he would have if he hadn't been let down by Thorin in Laketown, and also, as the three others, to look after their fellow dwarves who might not have survived Smaug's anger.
On the lakeshore, his personal fate as a future ruler of Erebor isn't engaged yet, first because Fili is alive and well. Not sure Kili may yet have thought about it, but after his own failure in the armoury, he might not be so sure about his ability to rule, not only from this day, but also from his youth and what his own mother said about him ("Reckless"). Clearly Fili is the one involved in Erebor. Meanwhile, through Tauriel, Kili discovers he was unknowingly seeking for something else than dwarvish fellowship. Not only from this day, but also from his own ancient feelings about the unaccessible star.
Until that moment, he had gone on a path he never really chose himself. He had followed Thorin and Fili mostly because both of them wanted him with them ; the feeling of adventure was plussing a little.
But as a regular dwarf he would never have engaged a discussion with an elf. And that he did, several times : almost two times in a row in Rivendell, then by reflex in Mirkwood ("give me a knife"), then even before the stone stuff, with his now famous line (if we admit he wasn't hiding this stone in his trousers).
That is five times, much more than the other dwarves altogether. Mostly, Dwarves speak to Dwarves ; when they do speak to other races, they only do it accordingly to dwarvish clichés, in view of Dwarves interest (Balin being the ambassador). It's not rare but common for them to insult others or to feel being insulted, to fool others or to fear being fooled. Anytime they are quick to cut relations, they are not fond of diplomacy or cultural exchanges. That's no surprise they only cherish their gold over anything else.
So if we look closely, Kili acts very unusually for a dwarf. He knows how a dwarf is supposed to act, but he knows it as a lesson. It's not natural for him.. he doesn't feel it.
Tauriel somewhat follows a similar mood, deeply rejecting Thranduil's isolationism. But for her it is much more elaborated and much less naive than it is for Kili. For Tauriel, being opened to other races is a matter of duty : she would not forgive herself if she didn't. She listened to Kili as a guard captain, in order to understand whet their quest is, and if she talked to him, it's in order to teach him the right way to think. Other elves wouldn't do so, because they wouldn't spoil their time giving knowledge to people unable to appreciate its beauty, especially as dwarves usually show.
What would have been interesting is to see Tauriel near Elrond (while open-minded in some extent, she looks also much more psycho-rigid and agressive, in a wooden-elf way, than her counterparts from Rivendell).
While PJ and team did much (some would say maybe a little too much) to show elves as a perfectly oiled war team, they also showed quite well individual singularities among collective common features.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 23 2015, 12:03am
Post #141 of 148
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But Kili also had something for Tauriel, yes he's much younger than her but she apparently has never been far out of Mirkwood. Kili has travelled far and wide, relatively speaking. When he's talking to her escorting the merchants he's telling her of things she's never seen in person. So he also has something to contribute to her. Sitting there listening she looked pretty enchanted.
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Lorien
Mar 23 2015, 5:38am
Post #143 of 148
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Tauriel really needs a road trip
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Kili may not have "gotten out much" by dwarf standards, but he definitely has traveled far and wide in Tauriel's view. Dwarves move around a lot ("you're dwarves, your used to this life!"). Tauriel is enchanted by something distinctly dwarvish here. Nice. 
I agree that Tauriel has not spent much time outside of Mirkwood. Just look at how she confides in Kili "I have walked there sometimes, out of the forest..." Seems like a rare, precious memory to her.
And then you have Kili rattle on about going all the way from Ered Luin to Dunland as part of his day job. Pretty enchanting!
In the universe where Kili is dead, I do like the idea of Tauriel not returning to Mirkwood and wandering Middle Earth instead. There's probably quite a bit out there she'd like to see.
I do think she'd get along with Elrond. Maybe he'd welcome her to Rivendell.
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Lorien
Mar 23 2015, 5:29pm
Post #144 of 148
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A funny thing happened today- I was rewatching the Ravenhill sequence. The first time I saw the movie, I found Kili's death scene a bit overwrought and jarring... but I actually liked it this time around, probably because Tauriel and Kili's story really did grow on me! (I actually detested it at first, if you'd believe it.)
A few geeky observations things:
1) Tauriel is clearly no match for Bolg, but she's still pretty scrappy in that fight. I loved Tauriel's fighting style. She loses the upper hand early on, and you can see her trying to regain it (ducking, opportunistic slashing). But Bolg is a tough opponent- even Legolas lost the first time they fought.
2) The fact that the beautiful "Feast of Starlight" theme plays when Kili dies actually makes me a bit misty eyed. It's really a nod to "what could have been" for these two. And a great little composition, so always a pleasure to hear.
3) After Kili dies, Tauriel literally "does a Kili". She flies into a rage on his behalf, as Kili did for Fili. Awesome. :) Those two do have a lot in common.
4) Evangeline Lilly has a seriously expressive face. She does this amazing transition from heartbroken and shocked to serious warrior-style grit. I love Tauriel as the gritty warrior. It's fun to watch.
5) Kili and Tauriel both, if unsuccessfully, come to each other's aid. First, Kili jumps on Bolg when Tauriel is down. When Bolg has Kili pinned, Tauriel tries to grab his mace. Neither was more a "damsel in distress" than the other. They were both outmatched and took a beating. And still, both did whatever they could to help the other.
6) Kili's fallen (already dead) body is dropped and lands in the same position as Fili's, spread eagle on his back.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 23 2015, 5:41pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 23 2015, 7:19pm
Post #145 of 148
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Excellent responses all 'round!
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I knew going-in that there would be disagreements here. But we have well-considered responses on all sides. Kudos!
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 23 2015, 10:52pm
Post #146 of 148
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Mirkwood is a very large forest
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...and after the battle / demise of the orcs in the whole region, I've heard that through the Appendices it is due to be recovered by elves.
Thranduil will enlarge his own estate at the eastern end, and Lothlorien will settle in the western part. That's why the Fellowship of the Ring finds Galadriel past the slopes of the Misty Mountains several decades after.
Coming back to Tauriel, the former captain of the guards may stay banished by Thranduil BUT still roam into Mirkwood on its path to become ex-Mirkwood : Tauriel would participate in the recovery of the Forest by the elves by helping to kill the remaining foes there, or learning how to cure the woodlands.
Looking at maps, my favorite compass, I begin to see there some future for Tauriel. She might help Galadriel in a forest she knows fairly better than many other elves. This task would even suit her far better than to settle in the too elegant Rivendell, for Tauriel feels herself as a 'lesser elf', and what she did almost all her life was fighting into Mirkwood. Knowing the tragedy of her heart, Thranduil might find some comfortable compromise if he sends his former to his new neighbour, and Tauriel will find with Galadriel the openness she always dreamt for.
I even suspect that Thranduil would put some condition to it : keep Tauriel out of Legolas (at least until the last departure of the elves to Arda). That would perfectly explain why we'll see no Tauriel in the whole Ring adventure, just because Legolas is almost everywhere in it.
And as we know, unlike Thranduil, Galadriel is no teeth out against dwarves, she even may share hairs...
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Lorien
Mar 24 2015, 4:07am
Post #147 of 148
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That would perfectly explain why we'll see no Tauriel in the whole Ring adventure, just because Legolas is almost everywhere in it.
Also, the war was fought on many fronts: Erebor and Lothlorian have offscreen sieges. We only really see the war in Rohan and Gondor! It's plausible that Tauriel could be involved somewhere else.
Even Radagast's absence from LOTR sits better if you consider the possibility that he was helping out somewhere else.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Mar 24 2015, 11:17pm
Post #148 of 148
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Seeing Galadriel and Tauriel interact
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...would sure be a delight. Both are generous and fair, but also show some lack of temperance when they face evil.
We know (the Appendices again) that Saruman came into the region to secretly seek the One Ring.
But we also know (FOTR) that Galadriel herself showed some desire upon It. And getting in the region (as well as Thranduil), she might as well have some opinion about it.
Why would Saruman be the only one to look after the Ring, knowing as everybody else that Sauron has now returned ?
And if we take Gollum as the angry erratic electron of a bridge movie, seeking his Precious, we could have some interesting and subtle tensions about it between all the main protagonists in the region (Gandalf, Beorn, Radagast and even Dain or Bard included)
In the end, the challenge would be not to have Gollum falling into the hands of Sauron... but we know he finally will, since that event sets the fuse for the second Trilogy.
I quite like the idea of many main protagonists trying to handle the situation without wanting to let any other know about the situation. The Ring is a nuclear device.
For instance, Thranduil shows that he is perfectly aware that Bilbo has some kind of magical device, and he may be curious about it.
And Bilbo has told Gandalf that he has 'lost' his Ring during the battle.. so Gandalf may show some curiosity about such an interesting ring.
Then we have Aragorn and Legolas meeting Aragorn. Since the beginning of Lord of the Ring, we know that both of them are aware of Frodo's situation
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