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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
seriously, whats the point of Tom Bombadil?

Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Mar 15 2015, 10:53am

Post #1 of 24 (4756 views)
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seriously, whats the point of Tom Bombadil? Can't Post

I love him but thinking it I realize its a chapter where they live adventures that have no impact on the story and that they could feel repetitive (lost in a forest like in the hobbit; fangorn...)

A character that in the begining of the story removes all the threat to the ring

Well perhaps is to love him, because we do

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

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Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



squire
Half-elven


Mar 15 2015, 11:45am

Post #2 of 24 (4701 views)
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His point is that... [In reply to] Can't Post

... his appearance in the story makes the reader ask, what's the point of Tom Bombadil?

In other words, Tolkien uses Tom to instruct the characters, and us the readers, that the story of the One Ring and the Three Ages of the World and the Rebellion of Morgoth are not all there is to Middle-earth. There are aspects of Tolkien's world that have nothing to do with any of that.

Less that two days ago someone posted here on TORn his opinion that Tom's question, ”Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?” is the most profound statement in all of Tolkien.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Elarie
Grey Havens

Mar 15 2015, 12:12pm

Post #3 of 24 (4684 views)
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One thing I've noticed [In reply to] Can't Post

is how close the Old Forest and Tom were to the Shire, and yet it was an unknown world to the hobbits, right on their own doorstep. Bombadil is a strange, mysterious character and yet he's "right next door" to the everyday world of the Shire. For some reason Tolkien chose to put the two things side by side, so perhaps it was just his way of emphasizing the fact that once the hobbits left the Shire, they also left the safe, familiar everyday world and entered the world of "magic".

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 15 2015, 12:51pm

Post #4 of 24 (4678 views)
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Did you catch the read-through of the Bombadill chapter in late January? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you catch the read-through of the Bombadill chapter in late January? There's much to interest you, I think.

If not, here's a link to one of the discussions http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=831569#831569

There are a number of other threads from Squire that week, starting discussions of different aspects of this!


BTW: The read through resumes on March 29th, when we are discussing Many Meetings, and anyone with a book and an opinion is MOST welcome.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 15 2015, 3:53pm

Post #5 of 24 (4636 views)
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Mostly unknown. [In reply to] Can't Post

Respectable hobbits would never speak of Bombadil and the strangeness of the Old Forest, but Ol' Tom seemed to know Farmer Maggot and even had a good opinion of him. I think that the folk of Buckland had some general familiarity with Tom, especially the Bounders and Shirriffs who patroled the region. I would not be surprised if Belledonna Took and her sisters had made Bombadil's acquaintance in the time before she wed Bungo Baggins.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


demnation
Rohan

Mar 16 2015, 12:46am

Post #6 of 24 (4532 views)
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Stories are boring without a bit of mystery [In reply to] Can't Post

regardless if those mysteries move the plot along or not. Tom is one of the most memorable parts of LOTR for me, mostly because we still don't know (and will never know) who or what he is and also because he doesn't have much to do with what happens in the rest of the story. Another author who is know for meandering and going off on tangents is George RR Martin, who often inserts little mystery nuggets and characters who sometimes don't really seem to have much to do with the major storylines. But I love those parts anyway, because, well they are kind of cool and just enrich the tapestry of the world being portrayed.

TL;DR Does Tom have a point? Not really, I guess. But does he have too?

"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."

(This post was edited by demnation on Mar 16 2015, 12:47am)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Mar 16 2015, 7:05pm

Post #7 of 24 (4308 views)
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Tolkien wanted him in the book - that's the point.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


geordie
Tol Eressea

Mar 16 2015, 7:07pm

Post #8 of 24 (4318 views)
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In 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' [In reply to] Can't Post

- we're told that the Bucklanders knew Tom - in fact, 'Tom Bombadil' is a Bucklandish name.
.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 16 2015, 7:49pm

Post #9 of 24 (4316 views)
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He's a test [In reply to] Can't Post

Recovery (which includes return and renewal of health) is a re-gaining—regaining of a clear view. I do not say “seeing things as they are” and involve myself with the philosophers, though I might venture to say “seeing things as we are (or were) meant to see them”—as things apart from ourselves. We need, in any case, to clean our windows; so that the things seen clearly may be freed from the drab blur of triteness or familiarity—from possessiveness. Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention, perceiving their likeness and unlikeness: that they are faces, and yet unique faces. This triteness is really the penalty of “appropriation”: the things that are trite, or (in a bad sense) familiar, are the things that we have appropriated, legally or mentally. We say we know them. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
-Tolkien, On Fairy Stories


…if, then, we call the sight of the starry heaven sublime, we must not place at the foundation of judgment concepts of worlds inhabited by rational beings and regard the bright points, with which we see the space above us filled, as their suns moving in circles purposively fixed with reference to them; but we must regard it, just as we see it, as a distant, all-embracing vault. Only under such a representation can we range that sublimity that a pure aesthetic judgment ascribes to this object. And in the same way, if we are to call the sight of the ocean sublime, we must not think of it as we ordinarily do, as implying all kinds of knowledge (that are not contained in immediate intuition). For example, we sometimes think of the ocean as a vast kingdom of aquatic creatures, or as the great source of those vapors that fill the air with clouds for the benefit of the land, or again as an element that, though dividing continents from each other, yet promotes the greatest communication between them; all these produce merely teleological judgments. To find the ocean nevertheless sublime we must regard it as poets do, merely by what the eye reveals -- if it is at rest, as a clear mirror of water only bounded by the heavens; if it is stormy, as an abyss threatening to overwhelm everything.
-Kant, Critique of Judgement


Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else (make something new), may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds.
-Tolkien, On Fairy Stories


Does your Bombadil soar, or does he just sit in his cage?

******************************************
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a wonderful town!!!
Mount Doom blew up,
And the Black Tower's down!!
The orcs all fell in a hole in the ground!
No Orc, No Orc!!
It's a heckuva town!!!

-Lord of the Rings: The Musical, music by Leonard Bernstein, lyrics by Betty Comden and Adolph Green

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 16 2015, 7:56pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Mar 16 2015, 8:39pm

Post #10 of 24 (4285 views)
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Excellent quotes - [In reply to] Can't Post

- as for 'my' Bombadil - he just _Is_

Smile


elostirion74
Rohan

Mar 17 2015, 3:50pm

Post #11 of 24 (3889 views)
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Tom has several important functions [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO Tom Bombadil has several important functions in the story. One of them is to present a character who is not concerned with power, domination or reform of other beings, but just enjoying or having an interest in other beings and things for what they are. Tom Bombadil is a character who is not affected by the Ring, but at the same he does not have the power to alter its power either, which shows both the limitations of the power of the Ring as well as the limitations of those indifferent to the Ring.

Tom Bombadil is also an important character in terms of making the hobbits more aware of how ancient and unfamiliar the world which has always been just beyond their borders is. He is instrumental in giving the readers as well as the hobbits an idea of the nature of the Old Forest is and why it is precisely like it is.

Tom Bombadil gives the hobbits a greater perspective on their own legends and neighbours. In a way it's a continuation of Gildor's reminder to Frodo about how the Shire not always has been their own Shire, how people and creatures have lived there and nearby before them and will live there after them. Given the rather insular perspective of most Hobbits, I think this is an important part of the themes of the first part of LoTR.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 17 2015, 10:33pm

Post #12 of 24 (3664 views)
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Illuminating selection of quotes, Darkstone. [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your question. My Bombadil dances and weaves with songs. Cool








Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 18 2015, 9:58pm

Post #13 of 24 (2952 views)
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For me, Tom Bombadil has always been [In reply to] Can't Post

an important point of contact between Middle Earth and the beloved Oz books of my childhood. I know that isn't going to resonate with anybody else, and has nothing to do with Tolkien's intent, but he was so much like the Shaggy Man in "The Patchwork Girl of Oz" that it made me feel at home while at the same time filling me with wonder the first time I read LotR.

Not sure I should even post this, since it's such a private, personal thing, but there it is. Maybe it has something to do with that flavor of Middle Earth being a big place with lots of unexplored corners, rather the way I always saw Oz.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 18 2015, 10:15pm

Post #14 of 24 (2943 views)
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I had to look up the Shaggy Man [In reply to] Can't Post

but the connection seems clear; he too disavows the material, preferring the experiences and being very singular if I get the idea right. I can see why you associate these two characters.








Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 18 2015, 11:20pm

Post #15 of 24 (2931 views)
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Mostly it's because of this scene [In reply to] Can't Post

which came to mind vividly the first time I read the Old Man Willow scene:


The boy had no chance to escape. Half a dozen of the great leaves were
bending toward him from different directions and as he stood hesitating
one of them clutched him in its embrace. In a flash he was in the dark.
Then he felt himself gently lifted until he was swaying in the air,
with the folds of the leaf hugging him on all sides.

At first he struggled hard to escape, crying out in anger: "Let me go!
Let me go!" But neither struggles nor protests had any effect whatever.
The leaf held him firmly and he was a prisoner.

Then Ojo quieted himself and tried to think. Despair fell upon him when
he remembered that all his little party had been captured, even as he
was, and there was none to save them.

"I might have expected it," he sobbed, miserably. "I'm Ojo the Unlucky,
and something dreadful was sure to happen to me."

He pushed against the leaf that held him and found it to be soft, but
thick and firm. It was like a great bandage all around him and he found
it difficult to move his body or limbs in order to change their
position.

The minutes passed and became hours. Ojo wondered how long one could
live in such a condition and if the leaf would gradually sap his
strength and even his life, in order to feed itself. The little
Munchkin boy had never heard of any person dying in the Land of Oz, but
he knew one could suffer a great deal of pain. His greatest fear at
this time was that he would always remain imprisoned in the beautiful
leaf and never see the light of day again.

No sound came to him through the leaf; all around was intense silence.
Ojo wondered if Scraps had stopped screaming, or if the folds of the
leaf prevented his hearing her. By and by he thought he heard a
whistle, as of some one whistling a tune. Yes; it really must be some
one whistling, he decided, for he could follow the strains of a pretty
Munchkin melody that Unc Nunkie used to sing to him. The sounds were
low and sweet and, although they reached Ojo's ears very faintly, they
were clear and harmonious.

Could the leaf whistle, Ojo wondered? Nearer and nearer came the sounds
and then they seemed to be just the other side of the leaf that was
hugging him.

Suddenly the whole leaf toppled and fell, carrying the boy with it, and
while he sprawled at full length the folds slowly relaxed and set him
free. He scrambled quickly to his feet and found that a strange man was
standing before him--a man so curious in appearance that the boy stared
with round eyes.

He was a big man, with shaggy whiskers, shaggy eyebrows, shaggy
hair--but kindly blue eyes that were gentle as those of a cow. On his
head was a green velvet hat with a jeweled band, which was all shaggy
around the brim. Rich but shaggy laces were at his throat; a coat with
shaggy edges was decorated with diamond buttons; the velvet breeches
had jeweled buckles at the knees and shags all around the bottoms. On
his breast hung a medallion bearing a picture of Princess Dorothy of
Oz, and in his hand, as he stood looking at Ojo, was a sharp knife
shaped like a dagger.

"Oh!" exclaimed Ojo, greatly astonished at the sight of this stranger;
and then he added: "Who has saved me, sir?"

"Can't you see?" replied the other, with a smile; "I'm the Shaggy Man."

"Yes; I can see that," said the boy, nodding. "Was it you who rescued
me from the leaf?"

"None other, you may be sure. But take care, or I shall have to rescue
you again."

Ojo gave a jump, for he saw several broad leaves leaning toward him;
but the Shaggy Man began to whistle again, and at the sound the leaves
all straightened up on their stems and kept still.

The man now took Ojo's arm and led him up the road, past the last of
the great plants, and not till he was safely beyond their reach did he
cease his whistling.

"You see, the music charms 'em," said he. "Singing or whistling--it
doesn't matter which--makes 'em behave, and nothing else will. I always
whistle as I go by 'em and so they always let me alone. To-day as I
went by, whistling, I saw a leaf curled and knew there must be
something inside it. I cut down the leaf with my knife and--out you
popped. Lucky I passed by, wasn't it?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 18 2015, 11:44pm

Post #16 of 24 (2927 views)
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Amazing, Aunt Dora [In reply to] Can't Post

This is new to me, as I have never read these stories before. The similarities again are astounding. I read this opinion - sort of a chicken-or-egg question it seems, in this blog post:


Ozblogging: The Patchwork Girl of Oz, Part 3 by Jim Cambias


Your thematic connections seem quite sound to me, and the 'feel' of the two is uncanny. I wonder if their literary purpose is rather the same sort of enigma? Not having read the full work (but seeing summaries that make it sound quite a bit Lewis Carroll-ish!) its harder for me to place the Shaggy Man. He doesn't seem to stand out as the relative enigma like Tom does - there seems to be lots of oddness there, versus relative Real World in Middle-earth and adjoining Hobbiton - but he is still a force to be reckoned with, using his whistles and singing.


I note Patchwork Girl was published 1913, and Tom's adventures 1962 (FOTR in 1954...so Shaggy Man seems to have antiquity on his side.)








(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 18 2015, 11:48pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Mar 19 2015, 1:43am

Post #17 of 24 (2914 views)
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I'm sure Tom B was written long before 1962. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's almost certainly one of the stories he wrote for his kids in the 30's. Once LotR was published, there was a demand for anything he could put together, and he resurrected a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, resurrecting the Sil material was too much of a challenge.

Still, the Oz books are of a vintage that he may have read them when he was young.








Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 19 2015, 1:48am

Post #18 of 24 (2910 views)
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Quite true [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's almost certainly one of the stories he wrote for his kids in the 30's.
Absolutely. And we know Tom predated FOTR because he was added in, versus being created for the book.


Still, the Oz books are of a vintage that he may have read them when he was young.


Again agreed - that was what I meant to convey with the dates, even though they don't reveal the whole story. Which is intriguing.








Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 19 2015, 4:03am

Post #19 of 24 (2889 views)
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Thanks for that link! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed.

I've always thought it was an amazing coincidence, not a copying, even an unintentional one. But it made me love Tom right away. (And doesn't Ojo sound like a hobbity name?)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 19 2015, 5:11pm

Post #20 of 24 (2830 views)
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Ojo is quite lovely Hobbity. It could work. [In reply to] Can't Post

One letter from Odo! And sounding very similar.


Thanks so much for posting about that thought you had. This information on the Oz writings is new to me; and in some cases in Tolkien where I have said, well, this has a rather wacky Lewis Carroll- inspired vibe, maybe its not Carroll I'm sensing at all but shades of Baum instead.








swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Mar 20 2015, 3:13am

Post #21 of 24 (2790 views)
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random tangents... [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my friends observed of Tolkien: that man needed an editor.

I think not. I like the wandering journey he writes, the odd side trips, the tangents. I think they all have some purpose, perhaps not an obvious one, perhaps not one he thought of at the time.

Sadly too much of modern writing is pared and edited and not allowed to have anything that would bore Short Attention Span Theater.

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...





dreamflower
Lorien

Mar 21 2015, 2:25am

Post #22 of 24 (2687 views)
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In addition to all the other uses [In reply to] Can't Post

It is through Tom Bombadil that the hobbits come into the possession of their barrow-blades; those very useful blades, as the W-k learned to his undoing.

The time spent in the Old Forest and with Tom served a literary function as well. Nearly all of it was foreshadowing. Because of Old Man Willow and the angry trees, we are more prepared for Fangorn and Treebeard and huorns. There is also the foreshadowing of the prescient dreams that Frodo, Merry, and Pippin (all descendants of the Old Took) all have. Frodo's dream is a clue to what has happened to Gandalf; Pippin's dream seems to be of his captivity by the Willow, but it also hints at Fangorn and the March of the Ents; Merry's dream seems to foreshadow both the drowning of Isengard and also his encounters with the Black Breath. In Tom's tales to the hobbits, we also see a hint not only of the world hidden from the hobbits, and a deeper history, but to things like. Ents and the Barrow-wights.

The encounter in the barrow was not only a place of testing and character-building for Frodo, and the source of the swords the hobbits would carry, but afterwards they have a vision of the Kings of old, which also includes a certain future king they will soon meet.

Tom's essential at this point; the hobbits needed the peril, a taste of the danger to come. But they have yet to be seasoned enough to deal with that peril on their own.

This apart from the mystery of Tom's identity and his use as a metaphor for the natural world beyond a hobbit's ken.

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Mar 21 2015, 10:04pm

Post #23 of 24 (2493 views)
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Tom's meaning in Middle Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

When I read LOTR, the first two chapters were like an extension of the Hobbit. I think Tolkien (and others have made this point in the past), was really trying to make a sequel. So some of the fairy tale aspects of the Hobbit creeps into LOTR at the beginning. But as the story moves on, Tolkien moves away from fables and more into the high fantasy of the Silmarillion.

So Bombadil functions as a transitions from Hobbit to LOTR. He is the pivot point from Children's story to Adult story. I don't know whether Tolkien intends to do this, or it just happens organically. My feeling is that is an organic transition.


As part of the book, Bombadil plays some important roles. He rescues the Hobbits from Barrow Downs and gives them swords there. One of the swords will be wielded by Merry to kill the Witch King. At the Council of Elrond, he's mentioned quite frequently as a contrast of how the ring has power over people.

Finally, he just gives ME that mystery/magic that makes it so unique. It's a world of Sauron and Morgorth and Numenoreans, Aragorn, Gandolf, the Valor, Galadriel... but it is also a world of Treebeard and Bombadil. All these characters co-exist and this makes Middle Earth so fascinating. I think a Middle Earth without Bombadil or the Pukel men would be less interesting than one with them.

Might makes Right!


Beleg Strongbow Cuthalion
Bree


Apr 8 2015, 7:51pm

Post #24 of 24 (2215 views)
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Proving that the Ring doesn't hold sway over everybody???// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― Gandalf the Grey~


 
 

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